• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can the right (and centre) have better (or any) conversations with the left?

Yerda

Veteran Member
What do you mean "out of bounds"?
I mean, broadly speaking, left wing ideas are beyond the pale in mainstream political discourse.

Actually, I had thought you were a Scot
Guilty as charged.

The excerpt has too much overgeneralization for my liking. For one thing, it talks about conservatives and centrists as if they were one group. For another thing, it states that an intelligent and honest person can't be a conservative, which is a highly tribalistic statement that overlooks the various factors shaping people's worldviews and tries to reduce them to whether someone is "intelligent and honest."

Just like the "left," "conservatives" and "centrists" are diverse, vast groups with a lot of different opinions and values. Talking about any of these groups in generalized absolutes doesn't seem to me productive or accurate.
Fair enough. For context the post (and another recent one) discusses the tendency of centrist political actors and commentators in the US to fall for the performance of dishonest right wing trolls. It is really the final part that is where I wanted to jump off from. The right is stone cold dead intellectually (and has been for decades) but the commentators and politicians in the centre would rather engage with racists masquerading as serious thinkers than the left.

Maybe I'm suffering from a bias in terms of what I see and recall, but I have seen people (commentators) call for the left to engage with the right and centre. But not the other way round.

Occasional articles on these topics would be fair enough. It is the relentless barrage of them, almost every day, that is the problem. The relevance of that, in this particular discussion, is that it shows a left wing preoccupation with such issues. People like me, who are not on the left, get bored and annoyed by it and people on the right react against it, sometimes quite aggressively. All this creates more heat than light and gets in the way of discussion of the really important points that people on the left should be trying to get across.

So I think the writer quoted in the OP has not got it quite right: the left is itself partly to blame for the distraction he complains of.

P.S. There is in fact a bigger danger, namely that the left becomes associated with all this identity politics stuff and NOT with the major socio-economic issues of the day. That leaves those issues open to be appropriated by a populist right. Which is exactly what is happening in the USA and could happen in the UK too.
I'm not sure that it is wise to take the opinion pages of the Guardian as indicative of anything outside the dining rooms of a set of middle class liberals.

The point about the populist right appropriating left wing ideas is valid. The ideas themselves generally have mass appeal and prove popular across the political spectrum.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
I mean, broadly speaking, left wing ideas are beyond the pale in mainstream political discourse.
My experience is that they are part of the mainstream political discourse, insofar as there actually is any discourse. I don't see left-wing ideas being treated any differently than the ideas of others. Perhaps what I mean is that I see everyone's ideas being dismissed with contempt, and without discourse, regularly.
 
Last edited:

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
\
It's an interesting story - and quite different from mine.

People in Britain tend not to sign up to political parties. It's mainly nerds and nutters that do that. So I've never had a party affiliation. With a background like mine (degree in chemistry, 32 yr technocratic career in the oil industry) I am a supporter in general of free market capitalism. I'm also a supporter of traditional institutions: the monarchy, the church, the House of Lords, etc. I think they work well and see no compelling reason to replace them. So I'm tending towards conservatism. But I'm also aware that wealth inequality has grown to an unhealthy degree and I support taxation and social programmes to help redress the imbalance. I do not believe in shrinking the state. And, having worked overseas and having married a Frenchwoman, I am an internationalist in outlook. I do not believe Britain is special and I can see - from direct experience - that the way other countries run their affairs can have a lot to commend it. So, as free market, state-shrinking, low tax fundamentalism and Brexitry has taken hold, I have found myself increasingly out of sympathy with the Conservative party.

Today's Conservative party is not for people like me any more. It is now a kind of tabloid party, with facile, mendacious slogans and a willingness to indulge people's worst instincts and play on their fears. It's a conscious choice the party has made. So rather to my surprise at 69 yrs old, I find myself a Labour voter.

And yet - so much of what you say mirrors my situation here. Just switch out your Boris/Brexit/tabloid/lowest common denominator/ragememe machine/etc. with our Trump/MAGA/Fox/etc. You didn't get the insurrection, but hey.

I'm a supporter of the rule of (constitutional) law but not the status quo when the status quo is unjust. I'm not an anarchist by nature, but I could be one if I had to. I love my country knowing it's far from perfect or ideal, but worth working toward positive change, not burning it all down. Who would've thought that would end up being the right's game plan, when they were always so sure it was going to come from the left. I think that's part of their cognitive dissonance, on some level they know they're the anarchists, but they need it to be the good anarchy, the justifiable and patriotic anarchy. As has been said many times in many ways, when the majority sees themselves in danger of becoming the minority and losing the associated social control and power, they're willing to do whatever's necessary to hold onto it.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
And yet - so much of what you say mirrors my situation here. Just switch out your Boris/Brexit/tabloid/lowest common denominator/ragememe machine/etc. with our Trump/MAGA/Fox/etc. You didn't get the insurrection, but hey.

I'm a supporter of the rule of (constitutional) law but not the status quo when the status quo is unjust. I'm not an anarchist by nature, but I could be one if I had to. I love my country knowing it's far from perfect or ideal, but worth working toward positive change, not burning it all down. Who would've thought that would end up being the right's game plan, when they were always so sure it was going to come from the left. I think that's part of their cognitive dissonance, on some level they know they're the anarchists, but they need it to be the good anarchy, the justifiable and patriotic anarchy. As has been said many times in many ways, when the majority sees themselves in danger of becoming the minority and losing the associated social control and power, they're willing to do whatever's necessary to hold onto it.
I don't know of any conservatives who care about being in the majority, or who believe that they have ever had any social control or power. Honestly, the things you've suggested they care about... I've never heard conservatives speak about those things as being the motivators for their political activity. And being in the West, I'm around a lot of conservatives.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
I don't know of any conservatives who care about being in the majority, or who believe that they have ever had any social control or power. Honestly, the things you've suggested they care about... I've never heard conservatives speak about those things as being the motivators for their political activity. And being in the West, I'm around a lot of conservatives.

I know plenty. I was a conservative, I come from conservatism, I'm surrounded by conservatives in real life and I've been on right-wing forums for over 20 years, engaging with them day in and day out. Maybe you don't see it because you're in it, the way a fish asks "what's water?"
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
I know plenty. I was a conservative, I come from conservatism, I'm surrounded by conservatives in real life and I've been on right-wing forums for over 20 years, engaging with them day in and day out. Maybe you don't see it because you're in it, the way a fish asks "what's water?"
I'm not "in" anything. I'm not conservative or any other flavor of political bent. I, like you, support constitutional government, not "the majority rules," or other political cliches.

But if you're deep in to discussion with self-proclaimed conservatives who feel that they have power, etc., who am I to say otherwise? The conservatives I know are largely constitutionally minded folks, not extremists.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
I'm not "in" anything. I'm not conservative or any other flavor of political bent. I, like you, support constitutional government, not "the majority rules," or other political cliches.

But if you're deep in to discussion with self-proclaimed conservatives who feel that they have power, etc., who am I to say otherwise? The conservatives I know are largely constitutionally minded folks, not extremists.

Who am I to say otherwise, that you're around a lot of conservatives, but have "never heard conservatives speak of these things?" They're all about "making America great again," "putting God back into the schools," reversing the hard-won constitutional gains of marginalized groups, and literally defying the courts and the rule of law to keep themselves - and Trump - in power.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Who am I to say otherwise, that you're around a lot of conservatives, but have "never heard conservatives speak of these things?" They're all about "making America great again," "putting God back into the schools," reversing the hard-won constitutional gains of marginalized groups, and literally defying the courts and the rule of law to keep themselves - and Trump - in power.
The problem is "they're all about"... that kind of thinking and speech appeals to stereotypes. Well, no, they're clearly not "all" about X or Y or Z. Most conservatives I know are not about defying courts or repressing marginalized groups, etc. It is precisely the stereotyping that is among the primary impediments to healthy discourse—on every side. We all need to speak honestly, not generally. We need to stop seeing one another as belonging to political factions, even if the person with whom we're talking sees himself as belonging to a faction. One citizen, one perspective. Not us vs them.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
My experience is that they are part of the mainstream political discourse, insofar as there actually is any discourse. I don't see left-wing ideas being treated any differently than the ideas of others. Perhaps what I mean is that I see everyone's ideas being dismissed with contempt, and without discourse, regularly.
It is not impossible that what I'm percieving is due to my selection of things to look at.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I mean, broadly speaking, left wing ideas are beyond the pale in mainstream political discourse.


Guilty as charged.


Fair enough. For context the post (and another recent one) discusses the tendency of centrist political actors and commentators in the US to fall for the performance of dishonest right wing trolls. It is really the final part that is where I wanted to jump off from. The right is stone cold dead intellectually (and has been for decades) but the commentators and politicians in the centre would rather engage with racists masquerading as serious thinkers than the left.

Maybe I'm suffering from a bias in terms of what I see and recall, but I have seen people (commentators) call for the left to engage with the right and centre. But not the other way round.


I'm not sure that it is wise to take the opinion pages of the Guardian as indicative of anything outside the dining rooms of a set of middle class liberals.

The point about the populist right appropriating left wing ideas is valid. The ideas themselves generally have mass appeal and prove popular across the political spectrum.
Ah but it is in the dining rooms of the intelligentsia where political ideas, from all parts of the spectrum, take wing.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
\


And yet - so much of what you say mirrors my situation here. Just switch out your Boris/Brexit/tabloid/lowest common denominator/ragememe machine/etc. with our Trump/MAGA/Fox/etc. You didn't get the insurrection, but hey.

I'm a supporter of the rule of (constitutional) law but not the status quo when the status quo is unjust. I'm not an anarchist by nature, but I could be one if I had to. I love my country knowing it's far from perfect or ideal, but worth working toward positive change, not burning it all down. Who would've thought that would end up being the right's game plan, when they were always so sure it was going to come from the left. I think that's part of their cognitive dissonance, on some level they know they're the anarchists, but they need it to be the good anarchy, the justifiable and patriotic anarchy. As has been said many times in many ways, when the majority sees themselves in danger of becoming the minority and losing the associated social control and power, they're willing to do whatever's necessary to hold onto it.
This is the new political phenomenon across Western democracies in general. The right has ceased to be the party of the middle class establishment and has decided its future is in populist iconoclasm and undermining the foundations of the political and judicial systems. The right is where the radicals are.

So the left are, by default, becoming the new conservatives! It is they who are left to defend an impartial judiciary, the existing institutions, laws and international treaties, and the existing democratic processes. It's weird.

The irony is that it is the unfettered march of free market economics, still championed by the right, that has led to the feelings of resentment and being left behind that they are now exploiting. They speak darkly of ill-defined "elites", when it is their own donors who benefit from the growing disparity in wealth that is the source of the resentment.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
The orange MAGA man, the right (wingnuts) leader has shown them how make fights by creating a perception.

Just to use the term "Distribution of Wealth' will bend most every American (US) wrong. Please find another set of terms, before using any socialist monologue.
But this is the conundrum. It is the "distribution of wealth" that has bred the resentment and sense of disenfranchisement that people like Trump and the populist right more generally seek to tap into. Yet to mention this is somehow anathema, apparently. So how is the issue to be addressed, if we are not allowed to discuss it?

What seems to be happening is that the Trump types pose as being "on the side" of the economically left-behind, by blaming shadowy "elites" for their predicament and distracting them with culture wars, instead of addressing their economic position. In a sense it is a clever strategy, if one looks at it from the viewpoint of people like the Koch bros: : feed the resentment but redirect it away from the actual injustices - in remuneration, employment practices, etc. that are responsible for their predicament.
 
Last edited:

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
The problem is "they're all about"... that kind of thinking and speech appeals to stereotypes. Well, no, they're clearly not "all" about X or Y or Z. Most conservatives I know are not about defying courts or repressing marginalized groups, etc. It is precisely the stereotyping that is among the primary impediments to healthy discourse—on every side. We all need to speak honestly, not generally. We need to stop seeing one another as belonging to political factions, even if the person with whom we're talking sees himself as belonging to a faction. One citizen, one perspective. Not us vs them.

What's the difference, in your mind, between my "they're all about" and your "I've never heard" except semantics? You gave your experience being around conservatives, I gave mine. Yours isn't better than mine, it's different. How much of that's down to perception is, as always, part of the equation.

Also - honesty isn't the opposite of generally. That's a bit of wordplay that may be completely unconscious on your part, but no, I don't "need" to speak more honestly than I'm already speaking.

And no, I don't "need" to stop seeing anyone as belonging to a political faction, and many obviously want to see themselves as belonging to a political faction. That's literally what MAGA hats are meant to do. They're an intentional identifier. Maybe it would be more helpful not to tell people what they "need" to do, just share what you feel the need to do.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
This is the new political phenomenon across Western democracies in general. The right has ceased to be the party of the middle class establishment and has decided its future is in populist iconoclasm and undermining the foundations of the political and judicial systems. The right is where the radicals are.

So the left are, by default, becoming the new conservatives! It is they who are left to defend an impartial judiciary, the existing institutions, laws and international treaties, and the existing democratic processes. It's weird.

The irony is that it is the unfettered march of free market economics, still championed by the right, that has led to the feelings of resentment and being left behind that they are now exploiting. They speak darkly of ill-defined "elites", when it is their own donors who benefit from the growing disparity in wealth that is the sourceof the resentment.

But this is the conundrum. It is the "distribution of wealth" that has bred the resentment and sense of disenfranchisement that people like Trump and the populist right more generally seek to tap into. Yet to mention this is somehow anathema, apparently. So how is the issue to be addressed, if we are not allowed to discuss it?

What seems to be happening is that the Trump types pose as being "on the side" of the economically left-behind, by blaming shadowy "elites" for their predicament and distracting them with culture wars, instead of addressing their economic position. In a sense it is a clever strategy, if one looks as it from the viewpoint of people like the Koch bros: : feed the resentment but redirect it away from the actual injustices - in remuneration, employment practices, etc. that are responsible for their predicament.

Well said!
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just to use the term "Distribution of Wealth' will bend most every American (US) wrong. Please find another set of terms, before using any socialist monologue.
You seem to want to inhibit the expression of liberal opinion. If the topic "distribution of wealth" offends or otherwise agitates you, ask yourself why. And I advocate for social democracy. If that offends you, once again, ask yourself why.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Any two people or groups can have a conversation about anything if they respect each other and remove their personal offenses. They do it all the time with higher ups. How many people treat their higher ups with disrespect or take personal offense from their talks. The problem you have is these parties you talk about don't even see each other as equals. In reality that shouldn't be a problem because all people deserve respect but in human practice it is. Human's more than average treat those they don't see as equals with disrespect, see slavery, genocide and bigotry for examples. So to get this fixed you need to change millennia of human practice or have a civil war to determine status. The civil war need not be with weapons of mass destruction but must be done in a way status can be determined. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your opinion most humans are followers so with a clear leader your problem will be resolved.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm a supporter of the rule of (constitutional) law but not the status quo when the status quo is unjust. I'm not an anarchist by nature, but I could be one if I had to. I love my country knowing it's far from perfect or ideal, but worth working toward positive change, not burning it all down. Who would've thought that would end up being the right's game plan, when they were always so sure it was going to come from the left. I think that's part of their cognitive dissonance, on some level they know they're the anarchists, but they need it to be the good anarchy, the justifiable and patriotic anarchy

The only thing I'd alter is that I see this "burn it all down" mentality coming from extremists at both ends.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Who am I to say otherwise, that you're around a lot of conservatives, but have "never heard conservatives speak of these things?" They're all about "making America great again," "putting God back into the schools," reversing the hard-won constitutional gains of marginalized groups, and literally defying the courts and the rule of law to keep themselves - and Trump - in power.

I'm not defending "conservatives", but I would say that millions of conservatives are NOT maga conservatives.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You seem to want to inhibit the expression of liberal opinion. If the topic "distribution of wealth" offends or otherwise agitates you, ask yourself why. And I advocate for social democracy. If that offends you, once again, ask yourself why.

We need to win hearts and minds, and careful word choice is a part of that process. So here on RF we can talk about "distribution of wealth", but I agree that that phrase "out in the world" will be a non-starter.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
John Quiggin, Aussie economist on his blog:


It’s a movie we’ve seen over and over again in US politics. Centrists engage in respectful discussion with a thoughtful conservative[1], only to discover they are actually talking to a dishonest troll. Yet, just like Charlie Brown lining up to kick Lucy’s football, they keep coming back for another try...

...Why do centrists keep falling for this? The answer, to paraphrase Voltaire is that, since no-one like the imagined intelligent, honest conservative exists, they have to be invented. In reality, intelligent honest conservatives, are either ex-Republicans (for example, David French and the Bulwark group) or open enemies of democracy (Adrian Vermeule).

But once they recognise that there is no serious thought to their political right, centrists would have to recognise that they themselves are the conservatives. That would entail an intellectual obligation to engage with the left, which is the last thing they want....



The typical discourse about the left is centred around identity politics. Cultural appropriation and trigger warnings, political correctness and the trans agenda etc etc. But being on the left you typically meet people with political agendas that only tangentially interact with this stuff if at all. Left wing economists, political theorists, activists, organisers and mobilisers are concerned with solving problems that dominate our lives. Like our rights at work, exploding wealth inequality and the concentration of political power, the failure of liberal democratic process and institutions to address our needs, fixing the housing market, getting money out of politics, stopping capital from destroying the biosphere, providing care to those who need it, addressing hunger and generational poverty, creating functional communities.

How can the right (and centre) move past treating twitter threads as political reality and seriously engage with the left?

Is it the case that the right (and centre) are bound by the need to ignore solutions (and even the existence of problems) that would necessitate a more even distribution of wealth, incomes, power and political access?
Liberalism is innovative, but it often lacks long term data and pilot testing for its ideas. Conservative is about conserving the past, which has lots of hard data, dating back hundreds of years. For example, the Conservative prefer we maintain the Constitution, as was, while Liberals will try to game around it, but without having much in the way of test proven data, that the new game will make things better.

Liberalism is more emotion based, which is why identity politics, is so important to them. It is about feeling and empathy for others, while lacking logical common sense how to do this and not create different set of victims; affirmative action. This solution was still a form of sexism and racism for new victims.

For example, the Left can feel the plight of the immigrants, but they lack the common sense to see the complications an open border, with open arms, will create. If it feels good to help others, it must be right. The Right is more about the time tested common sense logic, that immigration needs to be done in a controlled way, so we do not exceed our ability to provide, thereby causing hardship for our own citizens. That was how it was done for hundreds of years, and it worked fine and created a balance for all. Big hearts and small brain creates unintended consequences, since this was not thought through, or pilot tested first, to get all the bugs out. It was deployed inly with good intensions. Now we have an immigration crisis due to the short terms plans of emotional thinkers who can virtue signal for all to see.

What I would like to see is the Right and Left be able to separate the national income tax revenue, so each side can invest in their own ideas, and pay their own tab, if ideas goes south. The Right now has to share the cost of bad liberal policy, like the border crisis. Texas does not want it, but has to accept and suffer front this bad idea by Biden law.

For example, since uncontrolled immigration is a Lefty brain child, Righty Governors, in my revenue model, can send the bill to the Lefty Governors, whose party endorsed this brain fart. The Left can pay the whole tab. It was not until NY had the immigration problem, at their doors step, did they gain some common sense. Before that, they were able to virtue signal to show how much they care; so warm and fuzzy. Now the warm and fuzzy feeling, does not pay the mounting bills. This shows there is a way to wake up, Lefty, from their confusion, so they can smell the coffee. Even Biden is waking up, due to logic from the Left in NYC. They will not listen to same logic of the Right.

In my model, the Right would apply its conservative values to its revenue stream, and would have a surplus, maybe for a tax cut. That surplus now goes into mopping up the messes, caused by the Lefty brain trust. This supplemental income for Lefty bad ideas, makes it harder for the Left to learn about the harm they do. Let Texas pay. But if they get to pay the whole tab, common sense will come sooner; NYC is in trouble.

The Constitution says provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare. Provide means to give resources which takes money and taxes. Promote should be much less resource intensive than provide. Promote can be done with education, volunteers and cheerleaders. Lefty Big government has tried to change that line in the Constitution, to "provide for the common defense and provide for the general welfare." This is why we have such a huge national debt that the Founding Fathers did not endorse with the word; promote.

The Right would prefer teach or promote self reliance; family and God, to be consistent with the goals of the Constitution. Self reliant people provide taxes, and not just live off them. But Lefty short term thinking, without pilot tests, has led to crippling and compounding debt. If the Left had to pay for all its debt laden bad ideas, and the Right was exempt, I could sit back and watch the Lefty, go lower and lower, to the fourth world, after it pays tab after tab, for all the warn and fuzzy ideas of its bonehead leaders.

Would anyone on the Left go along with splitting the Federal tax revenue, by party affiliation? Could each party pay for it own ideas? Would each party do things differently if they had to foot the whole bill.

The main reason it is hard for left and right to talk is due to borrowing money from the future to fund bad Lefty ideas. The push to allow anyone to go to college sounded and felt good, but but demand inflated prices and left millions of young people in debt. Now the Lefty solution is victimize the tax payer with more future debt to cover their bad idea . How about we tax the Left to pay off all students loan debt, that they help to create by one of their expensive bad ideas, that flopped. Thus way they will be on the path to healing their common sense.
 
Last edited:
Top