How Can We Identify True Worship?

[averageJOE]

Assuming a god exists, I would think that it would not require nor need any kind of worship.

However, according to JW's, worshiping the "correct" god (their god) isn't enough. They must swear a loyalty to their Governing Body, a group of 12 old men, and the Watchtower organization.

 

[metis]

To be fair metis, this is not meddling in politics but something God commanded all of his people to do. Looking after those less fortunate among their own was an obligation to Jews. It did not stretch to those who were not Jewish as far as the law was concerned, but "love of neighbor" meant that humanitarian action took precedence over religion or social status. The "good Samaritan" is an example given by Jesus. It was on an individual basis though, not as a national instruction to provide for the poor or injured generally. The Jews hated Jesus because the hero of the story was a hated Samaritan.

Christians are not under obligation to look after anyone but their own, unless they happen upon someone in humanitarian need and as individuals, we can offer immediate assistance.
This means that soup kitchens or homeless shelters are NOT an obligation for Christians, but that imparting the good news of the kingdom can give a person hope and purpose to pull themselves out of their seemingly hopeless situation and give them the tools to make them self sufficient and to become contributors to society. Rather than their awful existence being a burden to themselves and others who despair because the problem is so huge that they cannot help everyone, they can see their own way clear to help themselves. Some have plunged themselves into poverty by their own choices and some have been thrown into it by the unfair treatment of others....regardless of the cause, those who truly want to help themselves can and do with the right help. Hand to mouth charity feeds the person for a day....Christians are supposed to help people to help themselves and feel the dignity of not requiring "charity". In Israel, the poor had to work for their own food by gleaning in the fields. The laws stated that the perimeters of the crop fields were not to be harvested but left for the poor to harvest their own grain to make the staples required to live. No hand to mouth charity there.

I reject this attitude completely. Either God is God of all or He isn't, so only helping one's "own kind" is totally reprehensible, imo. In eretz Israel, under Torah, it does not say or imply to "only help the Jews", although no doubt Jews are very much responsible to especially help fellow Jews out. There were non-Jews living there, and there was an obligation to deal with them as well under Jewish Law. For a Jew to allow a non-Jew to suffer when (s)he could help out is abysmal under Torah, which is why even today Jewish charities extend well beyond just Jews. Our food pantry where I live has a cooperative arrangement with non-Jewish food pantries, and I've been involved in that process.

With Jesus, do you honestly think for one minute Jesus would only help a "true believer" and ignore any "outsiders"? Jesus said in Matthew 25 and also in his Sermon On the Mount an obligation to help the poor, and he did not add "...only if they're your own people".

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jeremiah 10:23...It was NEVER Gods plan for man to rule himself, we are now settling a rebellion instigated by satan, Adam & Eve.

Job 1:6-12 ...God has allowed this, to prove whos rule is right, but God has never relinquished his sovereignty .
Job 2:1-7..

John 12:31...John 14:30...John 16:11...2 Corinthians 4:3,4...Ephesians 2:1,2...1 John 5:19....Jesus and Apostles well aware of this !

Luke 4:5-8...Satan shows Jesus, he has this Authority, Jesus does NOT challenge this !
Acts 26:17,18...Some translations say "AUTHORITY" ...others..."POWER"...look up meaning in Greek, "Authority" a better translation !

John 18:36...Jesus kingship has nothing to do with any man made Government...WHY ?...James 4:4...Revelation 12:9
Daniel 2:44...ALL, earthly governments corrupt, will be done away with !
Revelation 19:17-19...Kings (Governments)....Military leaders...Powerfull men...down to the smallest of men, who support satans world !

So, how should we view the 2 scriptures you quoted above ? THE SAME WAY GODS TRUE SERVANTS ALWAYS HAVE, "WE MUST OBEY GOD AS RULER RATHER THAN MEN"...Acts 5:27-29...We obey Caesars laws UNTILL it conflicts with Gods Law, whos Law is MORE important to you ?

Daniel Chpt. 3:....Who did Gods true servants listen to in this case ? Was it the Babylonian GOVERNMENTS law , or was it Gods ?

We can go much further into this if you like, the bible has MUCH to say on who your loyalties should be directed to !!

You are absolutely correct, it was never God's desire for man to rule himself, "apart from God". Israel wanted to be like every other nation, to have a king rule over them, to fight their battles for them, so God gave them what they wanted and God "set up" the government for Israel. It was God Who "appointed kings", not man. Yes they made mistakes, so what, they were "imperfect humans" just like your beloved GB, you overlook their mistakes, but condemn everyone else for their mistakes.

1Sa 8:4-6 (ESVST) 4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, "Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, " Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord.

1Sa 8:7 (ESVST) 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, " Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

 

[kerndog]

You are absolutely correct, it was never God's desire for man to rule himself, "apart from God". Israel wanted to be like every other nation, to have a king rule over them, to fight their battles for them, so God gave them what they wanted and God "set up" the government for Israel. It was God Who "appointed kings", not man. Yes they made mistakes, so what, they were "imperfect humans" just like your beloved GB, you overlook their mistakes, but condemn everyone else for their mistakes.

1Sa 8:4-6 (ESVST) 4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah 5 and said to him, "Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations." 6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, " Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the Lord.

1Sa 8:7 (ESVST) 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, " Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say, But the kings of Israel , actually were considered to be setting on "JEHOVAHS THRONE" ...1 Chronicles 28:5...1 Chronicles 29:23...They were to pay strict adherence to Gods laws, THEY were held accountable for THEIR behavior. Example, what happened when the 1st king Saul decided to do things his way ? ...1 Samuel 15:22,23...We are told by the apostle Paul that these things were written down for our instruction and a WARNING...Romans 15:4...1 Corinthians 10:11....so, what is the lesson, what is the warning ? Yea, i know, SO WHAT ! ...they were in positions of oversight....."Much is given, much will be demanded".....Luke 12:48...the jewish nation is a history of gross and long periods of DISOBEDIENCE , jehovah forgives when there is a basis for it, when there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness, the lesson is, Jehovahs patience is not unlimited.....Matthew 21:33-43....especially vs. 43....the nations today are no exception,....So, tell me , since you have insight,....at ...Psalms 2:1-12....what is the first fufillment of this, and what is the second, and how do we know this ? Why are the nations agitated ?...what is the empty thing they are muttering ? Who is it the nations are taking their stand against, and why ? What is the decree of Jehovah ? What are the shackles and ropes the nations want to tear off ?? ...and please, try hard to not be so cocky ......thanks

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Not quite sure what you are trying to say, But the kings of Israel , actually were considered to be setting on "JEHOVAHS THRONE" ...1 Chronicles 28:5...1 Chronicles 29:23...They were to pay strict adherence to Gods laws, THEY were held accountable for THEIR behavior. Example, what happened when the 1st king Saul decided to do things his way ? ...1 Samuel 15:22,23...We are told by the apostle Paul that these things were written down for our instruction and a WARNING...Romans 15:4...1 Corinthians 10:11....so, what is the lesson, what is the warning ? Yea, i know, SO WHAT ! ...they were in positions of oversight....."Much is given, much will be demanded".....Luke 12:48...the jewish nation is a history of gross and long periods of DISOBEDIENCE , jehovah forgives when there is a basis for it, when there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness, the lesson is, Jehovahs patience is not unlimited.....Matthew 21:33-43....especially vs. 43....the nations today are no exception,....So, tell me , since you have insight,....at ...Psalms 2:1-12....what is the first fufillment of this, and what is the second, and how do we know this ? Why are the nations agitated ?...what is the empty thing they are muttering ? Who is it the nations are taking their stand against, and why ? What is the decree of Jehovah ? What are the shackles and ropes the nations want to tear off ?? ...and please, try hard to not be so cocky ......thanks

I don't know what your post has to do with anything with God setting up kings, instituting "ALL" authority and then telling "His" people to stay out of it and to let satan have full control, that's nonsense! Is God instituting all this authority for satan? JW's just love their 7 spirit directed men that are their leaders, what do you think the world would be like if they were in control? If God had "His" chosen slave in control of the world, would it be the same, would it be better, or would it be worse?

If God didn't have anyone in government, anyone at all, and satan had full control, do you really think we'd have laws that protected people? Is satan that kind to make laws to protect people?

This is what I hear you, and other JW's saying, God created the world, He created man and gave us dominion over the world. Adam blew it, do God just said, "oh well, I'll just let satan have it for awhile. I'll keep my people out of the way, I won't help them get it back."

I don't know why you referenced Mat 21:33-34 for "Jehovah's patience is not unlimited", that parable is about all the OT prophets and Jesus. What does that have to do with God's patience? Yes, I look up all scripture posted!

 

[Ran]

By their scriptures

 

[Olinda]

Replying to @Deeje from the "Are Blood Transfusions really Life Saving" thread:

This would range from offering assistance to any sick or elderly person when we encounter them at the door, such as offering to go to the chemist for medication, helping out with shopping, spending time chatting to lonely people who have little family support...to offering assistance to anyone who showed interest in God's word in any way we can.

That's fine, right up to the part I put in italics. There again, is the hint of 'rice Christian', support and friendship conditional on conforming to your religion.

We don't judge people on anything except their own behaviour. Insincere ones will soon demonstrate their true intentions

You followed with the account of the family you had been calling on (my copy/paste isn't working). I'm sorry that they abused your generosity in loaning them a car. However, again, you mentioned that you had been "calling on" this family which implies to me return visits, ie, you hoped that they would progress to a bible study and eventually further. It does sound as if they may have been allowing this in order to to get further help from you. but also, your help seemed to have depended on your belief that they were interested in your religious message.

The jw ladies that visited me also offered help with clearing and gardening. I didn't accept as I really didn't need it. Just as well - it would have stopped as soon as they decided that I wasn't 'making progress'.

The religion I was born in runs a drop-in center with a social worker, food bank, computer access etc. An elderly gentlemen is a regular visitor. He was given assistance with Centrelink paperwork, access to medical help and finding casual work. On the occasions he arrived inebriated, he was given food and asked to go home. More recently he was helped with getting his pension and inexpensive accommodation. Last visit he offered to do lawnmowing and yardwork for working single parents as he wanted to be part of the supportive community. This is a wonderful result of giving without strings attached - but even without that he would still have been supported.

 

[Olinda]

I sometimes wonder what bubble you live in? The world is caught up in the greatest humanitarian crisis in its history and you haven't noticed? The economies of many once very strong nations are at critical levels and yet everything is OK in your world? Morally and spiritually human lives have "gone to hell in a hand basket" and things are still hunky dory for you? Really? The scourge of drug addiction (now with ice) has reached epidemic levels among people of all ages and the heartbreak is hard to watch as people trash their lives and can never recover. I cannot divorce myself from the suffering I see everywhere. Maybe you can?

"The greatest humanitarian crisis in history"?? References and support, please? All I can find is that the Syrian refugee influx is the largest since World War 2. Yes, economies of all nations rise and fall. Wringing our hands won't alter that
"Morally and spiritually human lives have "gone to hell in a hand basket"" And of course, this is a first!!
"The scourge of drug addiction (now with ice) has reached epidemic levels among people of all ages and the heartbreak is hard to watch as people trash their lives and can never recover." You know, some do recover. Ice is bad, but drug usage is hardly brand new. The centre where I volunteer does some good work.
"I cannot divorce myself from the suffering I see everywhere. Maybe you can?" If in your definition of 'divorce myself', helping refugee immigrants find work and learn English, supporting relief agencies and the drop in centre I mentioned and supporting a secondary school student in Kenya are encompassed, maybe!! Do you think I should just give them each a tract instead?

Perhaps a better avatar for you might be 'Chicken Little"

I have an elderly mother who is not a JW. She can see very clearly what I have been trying to tell her for years. She now admits that she can see the world heading in a dangerous direction. She also understands that humans cannot promise to fix any of it because the system simply will not allow it.

Personally I think it better to stick with a gentle, optimistic outlook when talking to older people. They have done their best and now deserve peace in their life.

We notice too in talking to people at their doors that their concerns are escalating. We have a finger on the public 'pulse' because we talk to them all the time.They tell us what concerns them.

Now, if you could provide statistics, that might be very interesting. For instance, are the numbers of jw's increasing in Australia? Are the new member 'across the board' or are any minority groups largely represented?

 

[Vinayaka]

The only worship we need to be concerned about is our own.

 

[Deeje]

Replying to @Deeje from the "Are Blood Transfusions really Life Saving" thread:

That's fine, right up to the part I put in italics. There again, is the hint of 'rice Christian', support and friendship conditional on conforming to your religion.

If you consult the scriptures you will see that this is the criteria for ongoing assistance. The people we help can't just be 'rice Christians'. (users....i.e. those who take advantage of the kindness of others) I am not obligated to help those who refuse to help themselves. Can you show me scripture that obligates any Christian to waste time on unthankful people who are only out to get something for nothing? I thought the expression of Jesus to the crowds after the first time he fed them and they came back, may have helped to drive home this point. Motive is important to God because it was important to Jesus. Motives eventually become clear. People can't hide what they are for long.
The Israelites were obligated to help fellow Israelites and Christians were to help fellow Christians. When a humanitarian act of kindness is needed, we offer what help we can in that situation. But we are not obligated to set up charities for ongoing assistance, because our first obligation is to God and his work, and our second obligation is to our own. Imagine if all the churches looked after their own....who would be left to need help from the government?

You followed with the account of the family you had been calling on (my copy/paste isn't working). I'm sorry that they abused your generosity in loaning them a car. However, again, you mentioned that you had been "calling on" this family which implies to me return visits, ie, you hoped that they would progress to a bible study and eventually further. It does sound as if they may have been allowing this in order to to get further help from you. but also, your help seemed to have depended on your belief that they were interested in your religious message.

Again, my interest in this family was first of all spiritual. This is why we preach...so as to impart the best news that there is, to give people hope in this miserable world. If we get no response, Jesus told us to "shake the dust from our feet" and move on.
Matt 10:11-15:
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

Do you see the criteria? We are to search for "deserving ones" and stay with them and teach them. (Matthew 28:19-20) If we are NOT received and our message is rejected, we are to leave and "shake the dust from our feet" allowing the person to accept their own responsibility and reap the consequences of their own decision.
We all know what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah....

The jw ladies that visited me also offered help with clearing and gardening. I didn't accept as I really didn't need it. Just as well - it would have stopped as soon as they decided that I wasn't 'making progress'.

Your spiritual welfare would have been their first concern. Christian acts of kindness are an obligation for us. But we will shake the dust from our feet if it goes nowhere spiritually. Our time is precious and we believe that it is running out. No time to waste on those who are not "deserving"....Jehovah shows us who these ones are. This doesn't mean that we will necessarily stop visiting altogether. Depending upon their workload, those ladies may still come back to say g'day.....unless of course you told them not to come back?

The religion I was born in runs a drop-in center with a social worker, food bank, computer access etc. An elderly gentlemen is a regular visitor. He was given assistance with Centrelink paperwork, access to medical help and finding casual work. On the occasions he arrived inebriated, he was given food and asked to go home. More recently he was helped with getting his pension and inexpensive accommodation. Last visit he offered to do lawnmowing and yardwork for working single parents as he wanted to be part of the supportive community. This is a wonderful result of giving without strings attached - but even without that he would still have been supported.

I can't image what strings you think we attach that Jesus didn't. We are not just humanitarians....we are Christ's disciples first, and the activity Christ commanded comes first.
He told us to preach, not to go on helping people who show no interest in the kingdom message. If churches want to do that and government agencies have departments for those ones, we have a more pressing need to help people with...their everlasting life.

 

[Deeje]

"The greatest humanitarian crisis in history"?? References and support, please? All I can find is that the Syrian refugee influx is the largest since World War 2. Yes, economies of all nations rise and fall. Wringing our hands won't alter that

Do you watch documentaries on the ABC and SBS? If you do, then I shouldn't need to go into the gory details of the sex trade and exploitation of children in underground mines, the plight of women an young girls in fundamentalist Muslim countries?....etc, etc.
It isn't a case of anyone wringing our hands...people want a solution to this awful mess that we call life. Sitting back in a country like Australia and being largely shielded from the troubles of the developing world, does not give us the right to enjoy life with no thought of the suffering of others. The Bible holds out a real solution to all these problems....poverty, war crime and violence, disease and death....there is a real government of God that will do away with all corrupt human rulership and replace it with a government that can really make a difference in the lives of all. (Dan 2:44; Rev 21:1-5)
The only criteria for citizenship of this government is a genuine love for God and his standards ....and a love for our fellowman.

"Morally and spiritually human lives have "gone to hell in a hand basket"" And of course, this is a first!!
"The scourge of drug addiction (now with ice) has reached epidemic levels among people of all ages and the heartbreak is hard to watch as people trash their lives and can never recover." You know, some do recover. Ice is bad, but drug usage is hardly brand new. The centre where I volunteer does some good work.

I never said it was new...but it is escalating and more and more children are being raised by drug affected parents. It is true that some can recover, but this ice epidemic is filling up the psyche wards with people who are demonstrating that they are permanently damaged and will never be able to become anything but a burden on an already overburdened system.
Alcohol is our "other" drug problem...just as damaging physically as the others but harder to treat in our drinking culture. Name me one celebration that humans do without alcohol. It is ingrained in us.

"I cannot divorce myself from the suffering I see everywhere. Maybe you can?" If in your definition of 'divorce myself', helping refugee immigrants find work and learn English, supporting relief agencies and the drop in centre I mentioned and supporting a secondary school student in Kenya are encompassed, maybe!! Do you think I should just give them each a tract instead?

The tract would give them a permanent solution to all of life's problems, not a temporary fix for the odd one here and there. Ask the JW brothers and sisters in Kenya how many of them need help from any agency other than their own brotherhood. We look after our own so that others don't have to.

Perhaps a better avatar for you might be 'Chicken Little"

I guess the people of Noah's day may well have been able to say that to him.....they weren't saying it at the end though, were they?

Personally I think it better to stick with a gentle, optimistic outlook when talking to older people. They have done their best and now deserve peace in their life.

As I have had a lot to do with elderly people I can tell you now that they don't want to be old or disabled by their years. They have reached a point in their life where they have gained much knowledge and wisdom, only to have it taken away from them or devalued. Even the elderly love the thought of the good news and returning to the days of their youth. No one wants to separated from loved ones, but death takes us all at the present. Giving people the hope of seeing lost loved ones again in a resurrection gives them joy and peace.

Now, if you could provide statistics, that might be very interesting. For instance, are the numbers of jw's increasing in Australia? Are the new member 'across the board' or are any minority groups largely represented?

Jehovah's people are increasing world wide. New congregations are established every week. We have around 8 million publishers of the good news preaching in "all the inhabited earth" as Jesus commanded. There are at present over 118,000 congregations. Last year over 260,000 were baptised.

Have you ever read any of our Yearbooks? They give you an idea of the scope of what we do.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302015031?q=2015+yearbook&p=par

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If you consult the scriptures you will see that this is the criteria for ongoing assistance. The people we help can't just be 'rice Christians'. (users....i.e. those who take advantage of the kindness of others) I am not obligated to help those who refuse to help themselves. Can you show me scripture that obligates any Christian to waste time on unthankful people who are only out to get something for nothing? I thought the expression of Jesus to the crowds after the first time he fed them and they came back, may have helped to drive home this point. Motive is important to God because it was important to Jesus. Motives eventually become clear. People can't hide what they are for long.
The Israelites were obligated to help fellow Israelites and Christians were to help fellow Christians. When a humanitarian act of kindness is needed, we offer what help we can in that situation. But we are not obligated to set up charities for ongoing assistance, because our first obligation is to God and his work, and our second obligation is to our own. Imagine if all the churches looked after their own....who would be left to need help from the government?

Luk 6:27-36 (ESVST) 27 " But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Here's one scripture that obligates Christians to "waste their time". And the verse you like to use that to justify you helping out your own first says nothing of the sort. How do you get "help first"
out of "especially"?

Gal 6:9-10 (ESVST) 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

32 " If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Can you show us from these commands of Jesus where He put a time frame or limitation on anything?

What does it matter if people keep coming back to get something more from you? Each time they come back gives you an opportunity to plant another seed. If you help someone one time, and plant one seed, what are the chances of that seed growing? You seem to be judging the persons motives and not seeing an opportunity to be planting seeds.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Imagine if all the churches looked after their own....who would be left to need help from the government?

Imagine if all the billion dollar "religious" organizations would look after "God's" creation!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Last year over 260,000 were baptised.

Ah yes, the infamous "baptized" comment. If you're willing to give those outstanding numbers, please break them down for us. How many of them were children from JW families they were coerced into getting baptized? Like, denying a drivers license to those old enough but didn't want to get baptized. How many were under the age of 15 that had to do what their parents wanted?

 

[Olinda]

The Israelites were obligated to help fellow Israelites and Christians were to help fellow Christians. When a humanitarian act of kindness is needed, we offer what help we can in that situation. But we are not obligated to set up charities for ongoing assistance, because our first obligation is to God and his work, and our second obligation is to our own.



Matt 10:11-15:
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

Do you see the criteria? We are to search for "deserving ones" and stay with them and teach them. (Matthew 28:19-20) If we are NOT received and our message is rejected, we are to leave and "shake the dust from our feet" allowing the person to accept their own responsibility and reap the consequences of their own decision.
We all know what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah....

He told us to preach, not to go on helping people who show no interest in the kingdom message. If churches want to do that and government agencies have departments for those ones, we have a more pressing need to help people with...their everlasting life.

If you consult the scriptures you will see that this is the criteria for ongoing assistance. The people we help can't just be 'rice Christians'. (users....i.e. those who take advantage of the kindness of others) I am not obligated to help those who refuse to help themselves. Can you show me scripture that obligates any Christian to waste time on unthankful people who are only out to get something for nothing?

For the scriptures, please see @djhwoodwerks response; I can't add to that. Also, your definition of 'unthankful' is very interesting. does that mean that a needy person should demonstrate 'thankfulness' by attending to your message to keep the help coming? Even if they are 'faking' it? What if that help is necessary to their family; is the pretense wrong in that case, or should they let the family hunger?

I thought the expression of Jesus to the crowds after the first time he fed them and they came back, may have helped to drive home this point. Motive is important to God because it was important to Jesus. Motives eventually become clear. People can't hide what they are for long.

But you see, I'm not Jesus . I just try to do as he would want.

Imagine if all the churches looked after their own....who would be left to need help from the government?

The disfellowshipped ones perhaps?

Again, my interest in this family was first of all spiritual. This is why we preach...so as to impart the best news that there is, to give people hope in this miserable world.

So your help was conditional on you believing that they might convert and eventually be baptised?

If we get no response, Jesus told us to "shake the dust from our feet" and move on.

Matt 10: 7& 8 " As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
If you could do the whole job, not just the proclaiming, there would be far more welcome and people paying attention. I cannot agree that all people who are not convinced by words alone are 'undeserving'!

Your spiritual welfare would have been their first concern. Christian acts of kindness are an obligation for us. But we will shake the dust from our feet if it goes nowhere spiritually. Our time is precious and we believe that it is running out. No time to waste on those who are not "deserving"....Jehovah shows us who these ones are. This doesn't mean that we will necessarily stop visiting altogether. Depending upon their workload, those ladies may still come back to say g'day.....unless of course you told them not to come back?

If I had asked them not to return I would have told you. In fact they returned twice more, to place magazines, but I suggested that there might be less 'ruining of the earth' if I read them online. . .and never saw them again. I guess you can't count 'virtual placements'? . As for time, hasn't it been running out since the 1920s or so?

ABE: Can I also mention that the phrase 'concern for my "spiritual welfare" comes across as rather patronizing? I had not asked for spiritual help, and IMO our discussions had yet to determine relative "spirituality".

I can't image what strings you think we attach that Jesus didn't. We are not just humanitarians....we are Christ's disciples first, and the activity Christ commanded comes first.

What strings did Jesus attach to the woman taken in adultery? True, you are not just humanitarians. . .and you are just not humanitarians.

 

[Olinda]

The Bible holds out a real solution to all these problems....poverty, war crime and violence, disease and death....there is a real government of God that will do away with all corrupt human rulership and replace it with a government that can really make a difference in the lives of all. (Dan 2:44; Rev 21:1-5)
The only criteria for citizenship of this government is a genuine love for God and his standards ....and a love for our fellowman.

Jehovah's people are increasing world wide. New congregations are established every week. We have around 8 million publishers of the good news preaching in "all the inhabited earth" as Jesus commanded. There are at present over 118,000 congregations. Last year over 260,000 were baptised.

Have you ever read any of our Yearbooks? They give you an idea of the scope of what we do.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302015031?q=2015+yearbook&p=par

Do you watch documentaries on the ABC and SBS? If you do, then I shouldn't need to go into the gory details of the sex trade and exploitation of children in underground mines, the plight of women an young girls in fundamentalist Muslim countries?....etc, etc.

I ask for justification for your hyperbole and you reply by wanting to know what I watch on TV? And then toss a few more 'awfuls' in. Yes, there are still shocking working conditions for women and children; yes, women are oppressed in fundamentalist Muslim countries. Are these new or recent developments? Anyway, none of it justifies your calling the Syrian refugee problems the worst humanitarian disaster in history.

It isn't a case of anyone wringing our hands...people want a solution to this awful mess that we call life. Sitting back in a country like Australia and being largely shielded from the troubles of the developing world, does not give us the right to enjoy life with no thought of the suffering of others.

Please explain how this is relevant, in particular how you have reasonably gained the impression that I " enjoy life with no thought of the suffering of others".

The Bible holds out a real solution to all these problems....poverty, war crime and violence, disease and death....there is a real government of God that will do away with all corrupt human rulership and replace it with a government that can really make a difference in the lives of all. (Dan 2:44; Rev 21:1-5)
The only criteria for citizenship of this government is a genuine love for God and his standards ....and a love for our fellowman.

So, no requirement to become a Jehovah's Witness? And no need to work to help our fellow men in the meantime?

I never said it was new...but it is escalating and more and more children are being raised by drug affected parents. It is true that some can recover, but this ice epidemic is filling up the psyche wards with people who are demonstrating that they are permanently damaged and will never be able to become anything but a burden on an already overburdened system.
Alcohol is our "other" drug problem...just as damaging physically as the others but harder to treat in our drinking culture. Name me one celebration that humans do without alcohol. It is ingrained in us.

Your argument needs figures to show firstly, how significant the increase is, and secondly, establish that we cannot cope.
Alcohol abuse is indeed a problem, and has been around for a long time. Enjoying alcohol at celebrations though. . .As I recall, Jesus didn't have a problem with that .

The tract would give them a permanent solution to all of life's problems, not a temporary fix for the odd one here and there. Ask the JW brothers and sisters in Kenya how many of them need help from any agency other than their own brotherhood. We look after our own so that others don't have to.

I didn't say which denomination the tract was for . More to the point, hungry people don't have much concentration or value for words. . .but food, comfort and shelter speak to all.

I guess the people of Noah's day may well have been able to say that to him.....they weren't saying it at the end though, were they?

Noah received his mandate to preach straight from God. . .and even so didn't have much success. I wonder if that was what drove him to drink? Not a very edifying story, IMO.

As I have had a lot to do with elderly people I can tell you now that they don't want to be old or disabled by their years. They have reached a point in their life where they have gained much knowledge and wisdom, only to have it taken away from them or devalued. Even the elderly love the thought of the good news and returning to the days of their youth. No one wants to separated from loved ones, but death takes us all at the present. Giving people the hope of seeing lost loved ones again in a resurrection gives them joy and peace.

Avoiding depressing viewpoints is not in any way devaluing or belittling an older person. And I understood that your mother is not a jw? Could you explain how you can promise her all of these things?

It will take me a while to read your reference but i'll get to it!

 

[Deeje]

@Olinda
2 Thess 3:6-12:
"Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother who walks irresponsibly and not according to the tradition received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you must imitate us: We were not irresponsible among you; 8 we did not eat anyone’s food free of charge; instead, we labored and struggled, working night and day, so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 It is not that we don’t have the right to support, but we did it to make ourselves an example to you so that you would imitate us. 10 In fact, when we were with you, this is what we commanded you: “If anyone isn’t willing to work, he should not eat.” 11 For we hear that there are some among you who walk irresponsibly, not working at all, but interfering with the work of others. 12 Now we command and exhort such people by the Lord Jesus Christ that quietly working, they may eat their own food."

God's ministers set the example.....'if you don't want to work, then you don't eat'. We are not to become an expensive burden on others if we have a choice to earn our own keep. It wasn't exactly a hand-out mentality, was it? "Irresponsible" ones who had no intention of working for their own living were to be avoided. Helping people in genuine need is one thing, supporting those who are professional 'beggars' and opportunists is something else entirely. You can let them take advantage of you if you wish. I will trust people until they show me that they are not worthy of that trust.

All of the laws in the OT applied to those who were Jews or Jewish proselytes. Jews usually isolated themselves in communities away from other nations because God had warned them of their bad influence. When Israel failed to keep their distance, corruption soon followed. (Judges 2:1-3, 11-15; Psalm 106:40-43)

The Christians started off in Jewish communities and as the persecution mounted, they segregated themselves into congregations, mostly meeting for worship in the homes of fellow believers. Christians looked after other Christians, but more specifically, they looked after those who could not take care of themselves. Humanitarian aid was rendered on a circumstantial basis. There were no charities in either Israel or Christianity per se.

James 1:27:
"Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

Orphans and widows in the first century had no breadwinner and were thus seen as among the most disadvantaged. The help given to them wasn't just material, it was also spiritual. Jesus gave the care of his widowed mother over to the apostle John as he was dying, despite the fact that he had siblings who could have cared for her. Because his brothers were not yet believers, he made sure that his mother's spiritual needs were taken care of first.

We are all entitled to believe whatever we like. God gives us this freedom to use or to misuse...it's our choice.

If you are happy with your belief and prospects for the future, then there is little I can add. As a messenger, all I am responsible for is delivery of the message...what people do with it is up to them. (Matthew 24:14) They can tear it apart and trample it underfoot or they can take notice and act on it. We don't expect that the majority will be any different from the people of Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39; 7:13, 14) It isn't about quantity....its about the quality of the human heart and whether God see one as worth "drawing". (John 6:44) You see, he chooses us as much as we choose him. If he doesn't want us as a citizen in his kingdom, he will leave us to our own delusion. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He owes us nothing.....we owe him everything.

The Bible's prophesies are there to give hope to anyone who wants to take God up on his offer. But it has to be on his terms, not ours.

Isaiah 11:1-10; Isaiah 65:17-25; Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13;

But I don't think this discussion is going to benefit either of us, since we seem to be talking past each other and no one is really listening. I have heard all the arguments before and quite frankly I don't want to keep dredging up the same old stuff over and over again. Finding fault has become a favorite passtime for some people, but God has always been able to deal with the imperfections in humans and still use them to carry out his will. Let me know when you find a perfect human in the Bible, other than Jesus Christ....then let me know where I will find one today? God doesn't need his servants to be perfect...he just requires them to be obedient from the heart. I believe that I have found a brotherhood who ticks all the boxes to the extent that imperfect humans can. You can believe otherwise.

 

[Olinda]

@Olinda
2 Thess 3:6-12:
"Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother who walks irresponsibly and not according to the tradition received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you must imitate us: We were not irresponsible among you; 8 we did not eat anyone’s food free of charge; instead, we labored and struggled, working night and day, so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 It is not that we don’t have the right to support, but we did it to make ourselves an example to you so that you would imitate us. 10 In fact, when we were with you, this is what we commanded you: “If anyone isn’t willing to work, he should not eat.” 11 For we hear that there are some among you who walk irresponsibly, not working at all, but interfering with the work of others. 12 Now we command and exhort such people by the Lord Jesus Christ that quietly working, they may eat their own food."

God's ministers set the example.....'if you don't want to work, then you don't eat'. We are not to become an expensive burden on others if we have a choice to earn our own keep. It wasn't exactly a hand-out mentality, was it? "Irresponsible" ones who had no intention of working for their own living were to be avoided. Helping people in genuine need is one thing, supporting those who are professional 'beggars' and opportunists is something else entirely. You can let them take advantage of you if you wish. I will trust people until they show me that they are not worthy of that trust.

All of the laws in the OT applied to those who were Jews or Jewish proselytes. Jews usually isolated themselves in communities away from other nations because God had warned them of their bad influence. When Israel failed to keep their distance, corruption soon followed. (Judges 2:1-3, 11-15; Psalm 106:40-43)

The Christians started off in Jewish communities and as the persecution mounted, they segregated themselves into congregations, mostly meeting for worship in the homes of fellow believers. Christians looked after other Christians, but more specifically, they looked after those who could not take care of themselves. Humanitarian aid was rendered on a circumstantial basis. There were no charities in either Israel or Christianity per se.

James 1:27:
"Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

Orphans and widows in the first century had no breadwinner and were thus seen as among the most disadvantaged. The help given to them wasn't just material, it was also spiritual. Jesus gave the care of his widowed mother over to the apostle John as he was dying, despite the fact that he had siblings who could have cared for her. Because his brothers were not yet believers, he made sure that his mother's spiritual needs were taken care of first.

We are all entitled to believe whatever we like. God gives us this freedom to use or to misuse...it's our choice.

If you are happy with your belief and prospects for the future, then there is little I can add. As a messenger, all I am responsible for is delivery of the message...what people do with it is up to them. (Matthew 24:14) They can tear it apart and trample it underfoot or they can take notice and act on it. We don't expect that the majority will be any different from the people of Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39; 7:13, 14) It isn't about quantity....its about the quality of the human heart and whether God see one as worth "drawing". (John 6:44) You see, he chooses us as much as we choose him. If he doesn't want us as a citizen in his kingdom, he will leave us to our own delusion. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He owes us nothing.....we owe him everything.

The Bible's prophesies are there to give hope to anyone who wants to take God up on his offer. But it has to be on his terms, not ours.

Isaiah 11:1-10; Isaiah 65:17-25; Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13;

But I don't think this discussion is going to benefit either of us, since we seem to be talking past each other and no one is really listening. I have heard all the arguments before and quite frankly I don't want to keep dredging up the same old stuff over and over again. Finding fault has become a favorite passtime for some people, but God has always been able to deal with the imperfections in humans and still use them to carry out his will. Let me know when you find a perfect human in the Bible, other than Jesus Christ....then let me know where I will find one today? God doesn't need his servants to be perfect...he just requires them to be obedient from the heart. I believe that I have found a brotherhood who ticks all the boxes to the extent that imperfect humans can. You can believe otherwise.

(Gasp!) Such a long post and not a single reply to any of my points!

Well, if you intended to use a discussion as a preaching platform you are right, nothing more to be said.

All the very best to you.

 

[Deeje]

@Olinda From your previous posts above, it was clear that there was no point in continuing. You should have discussions with Mr woodwerks, who will confirm your every suspicion about us.

As I said, there is a point where you just have to "shake the dust off" and let the person go on their way. I have no desire to argue points that have been made already.

Have a good one. I hope the recent weather has been kind to you.

 

[Olinda]

@Olinda From your previous posts above, it was clear that there was no point in continuing. You should have discussions with Mr woodwerks, who will confirm your every suspicion about us.

As I said, there is a point where you just have to "shake the dust off" and let the person go on their way. I have no desire to argue points that have been made already.

Have a good one. I hope the recent weather has been kind to you.

@Deeje I don't have suspicions about jws. I have questions. When repeating the formula doesn't answer the questions, you do a runner. Just as my two visitors did.

Now, please, no more aspersions on my housekeeping, and don't fret about my reference to @djhwoodwerks's post. no conspiracy there, I just saw no point in copying her/his references.