How Can we know that either Christianity or Islam is right?

[oldbadger]

InvestigateTruth writes:- 'It's true that Baha'is believe Jesus and Muhammad were True Prophets,...........'
No problem there (for me).

Then he writes:- '....but I would say you misunderstood the Baha'i view about voting or decision making.'
I am not talking about any Bahai view here, but about the Bahai policy of electing councillors or leaders at local, state or national levels. So I need to ask you this:-
In a World where, say, 70% of the population had become Bahai's, and where your system ruled, could (for instance) a 56yr old christian vote at your next election in the area where she lived? Could a 22yr old agnostic have a vote? I think that's a YES or NO kind of question? All the best, oldbadger

 

[InvestigateTruth]

InvestigateTruth writes:- 'It's true that Baha'is believe Jesus and Muhammad were True Prophets,...........'
No problem there (for me).

Then he writes:- '....but I would say you misunderstood the Baha'i view about voting or decision making.'
I am not talking about any Bahai view here, but about the Bahai policy of electing councillors or leaders at local, state or national levels. So I need to ask you this:-
In a World where, say, 70% of the population had become Bahai's, and where your system ruled, could (for instance) a 56yr old christian vote at your next election in the area where she lived? Could a 22yr old agnostic have a vote? I think that's a YES or NO kind of question? All the best, oldbadger

Well, let me first explain that, the Baha'i Scriptures teaches that Religion and Government should be separated. So, even if let's say 99% of the world becomes Baha'is, even then, we do not have such a thing as a religious government.
The voting to select the Baha'i assemblies at the local, national and international levels are to select Baha'i representative that solely provide guidance and leadership for the Baha'i comunity, not as a country government.
The voting to choose government would be a separate voting process, which everyone is allowed to participate regardless of religion, race, gender, etc...

 

[oldbadger]

To Investigate Truth: Thanks for your reply. So, no local, national of international Bahai assembly would be involved with the running of any area, country or (if it existed) World government, but would allow County, State, Nation and National Group Councils to elect themselves without any interference as secular bodies? Have I got that right? One more question:- Please, where can I read this for myself? Did your Prophet Bahauallah write all this down somewhere?
All the best, oldbadger

 

[godonski]

Christianity is the right religion to follow cos it does not gain new coverts by force. it existed very long b4 the idea of Islam was ever conceived. the bible remains the only true book ever written whose prophecies are unblemishly accurate. moreso, the birth of Christ was declare more than two thousand years b4 he was born. lastly, the Surah (quoran) bear witness to the authority of the bible.

 

[oldbadger]

Hi godonski! Wow! I'm impressed with your post! Let me tell you why: You have posted 1 post as a Freshman and gained 10 frubals from it! I am slowly becoming a frubal-clingon, and so am massively green-with-envy about your unqualified success. But, sadly, the main body of your post was just off-target, because it was wrong....... well...... absolute nonsense, really.
You see, history tells us that your religion burned, hanged, beheaded and did goodness-knows-what-else to folks who didn't join in properly. Lots of religions existed long before Jesus walked and taught, and I've read lots of (other) books which are true, whereas some books in the bible are not. I hold Jesus in the greatest awe and respect, but your kind of faith seems to lead to..... well..... religious arrogance? Do you honestly think that Jesus would think, talk or write like you did in your post? All the best. oldbadger.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To Investigate Truth: Thanks for your reply. So, no local, national of international Bahai assembly would be involved with the running of any area, country or (if it existed) World government, but would allow County, State, Nation and National Group Councils to elect themselves without any interference as secular bodies? Have I got that right? One more question:- Please, where can I read this for myself? Did your Prophet Bahauallah write all this down somewhere?
All the best, oldbadger

Here is are some quotes:

"'Abdu'l-Bahá [The appointed sussesor of Baha'u'llah] relates the separation of church and state to two fundamental forces or metaphysical principles (qovveh, translated by Cole as "faculties"). One is the principle of governance "which bestows external happiness on the human realm...safeguards human life, property and honour," the second "represented by the spiritual, holy authority, heavenly, revealed books, divine prophets, celestial souls, and the learned in the All-Merciful." Religious leaders, including "divine prophets," do not enter the political sphere because:

[page 712] the affairs of leadership and government, of kingdom and subjects, already have a respected object of authority, an appointed source, whereas a different holy centre and distinct wellspring exists with regard to guidance, religion, knowledge, education, and the promulgation of good morals and of the virtues of true humanity. These latter souls have nothing to do with affairs of civil leadership, nor do they seek to interfere in them. Thus, in this most great cycle of the maturity and adulthood of the world...is it written[by Bahá'u'lláh] in the Book of the Covenant... whose decree is decisive ....
"O ye the loved ones and the trustees of God! Kings are the manifestations of the power, and the daysprings of the might and riches, of God. Pray ye on their behalf. He hath invested them with the rulership of the earth, and hath singled out the hearts of men as His Own domain. Conflict and contention are categorically forbidden in His Book. This is a decree of God in this Most Great Revelation. It is divinely preserved from annulment ...."[40]
​

Religious leaders, he says, can only advise:

These souls are the authorities in establishing the purport of divine laws, not with regard to their implementation. That is, whenever the government questions them about the exigencies of the revealed law and the reality of the divine ordinances ... they must communicate the conclusions to which their reasonings led them about the commands of God... Otherwise, What expertise do they have in political matters... ?"


A Theology of the State from the Baha'i Teachings


Also:

"These sacred duties are rooted in spiritual, divine matters, and in ethical considerations. They have not been linked with material honours, political affairs or worldly matters. On the contrary, the sacred power of these pure and excellent persons is at work within the reality of the soul and conscience, in the inner heart and spirit, and not in water and clay. The banners of the signs of these pure realities are raised in the open spaces of the soul, where the spirit takes wing, not in this world of dust. they have never had any role to play in questions of the government and the governed, of ruling and being ruled. They are ones chosen by the sweet-scented breezes of God, the ones closest to the overflowing waters of the spirit of eternity. They do not seek any role in other matters, and they do not urge the steed of ambition in the arena of greed and power. For matters of politics and government, of the kingdom and of subjects have a specified source and a respected place to which they refer, while guidance, religion, insight, education, and the promotion of the morals and virtues of humanity have a sacred centre and designated spring. These souls have nothing to do with political affairs, nor do they seek any involvement. " Abdulbaha

A Sermon on the Art of Governance, Abdulbaha


​

 

[oldbadger]

InvestigateTruth: Thankyou for the effort and care which you have extended to answer my questions! I wanted to acknowledge that immediately; and I want to return a reply as quickly as possible, but cannot prepare that until Saturday morning, (12 hours from now). My wife and I do our weekly shopping now (friday evening at 21.10 hrs BST) at an all-night Tescos, so I am out-of-time this evening. Please accept my apologies for delaying a reply. oldbadger

 

[oldbadger]

InvestigateTruth:- Thanks for your patience. Firstly, I have been a pantheist for forty years. I once thought I knew something about Bahai, have a bahai book, but I never guessed at all this......
Remember, other bahai debaters nudged in between christian and moslem debaters to explain how much they empathised with both faiths.In a Bahai World would they bother about either?
You did not give a clear statement from your Prophet. Rather, you delivered the prophet's relative's words, amounting to number 3 below? So I checked out a couple of Bahai web sites......
1. Bahai's support the elimination of prejudice of all kinds. The Bahai Universal House of Justice (World Government?) does not accept women as members. Homosexuals are forbidden to sit on governing bodies at any level. Have you ever heard of 'doublethink'?

2. The Universal House of Justice ........ is a legislative institution with the authority to supplement and apply the laws ............. and exercises a judicial function as the highest appellate institution.............. to preserve the law, to administer social affairs.... to make the world prosperous, ......... So the Bahais of the World could be involved with peacekeeping (military), Criminal law (policing), prosperity (commerce/industry) and on and on!
3. Gradualism ............. "tact and wisdom".... that they (bahais) do not cause "disturbance and dissension." Bahá'u'lláh thus provided for the progressive application of his laws. .....(As you get stronger so you grip tighter?)

4. And those who are not Bahais may not vote? I suggest that we leave this debate now and let Christianity and Islam seek for any possible harmony, just together.

 

[glad bearer]

Dear Brother/Sister,
There is only possible way to analyze this issue, that go to the manuscripts of these two religions, and check what are they claim?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

InvestigateTruth:- Thanks for your patience. Firstly, I have been a pantheist for forty years. I once thought I knew something about Bahai, have a bahai book, but I never guessed at all this......

I am not sure what is the point here.

Remember, other bahai debaters nudged in between christian and moslem debaters to explain how much they empathised with both faiths.In a Bahai World would they bother about either?

Well, It seems to me that you are assuming that the intention of those Baha'i Debater that you are talking about is "to explain how much they empathised with both faiths"
But I do not think Baha'is discuss other religions because they want to empathise, but because I believe those religions are from the same God, and the reason, people believe they are not from the same source, is because of misunderstanding and misinterpretations of their scriptures.
If you spend quite some time, you will see that Historically, even the followers of these religions also, kept correcting and changing the way they intepreted their own Holy Books. (But I leave that for you to investigate)

You did not give a clear statement from your Prophet.

To me they are very clearly teaching separation of religion from state and politics, and this is the general view of All Baha'is, and they have been practicing it.
In fact, in Baha'i Faith, there is no clergy. We vote to choose our assembly members every year. But these members are only regular Baha'is, they do not have any higher station than anyone elses as indivisuals.
(The Baha'i Administration is a very complex and lengthy subject to learn, which I do not think, it can be covered in this Forum. It would take years to learn and understand it even for practicing Baha'is)

Rather, you delivered the prophet's relative's words, amounting to number 3 below? So I checked out a couple of Bahai web sites......

Baha'u'llah revealed about 100 volumes of scriptures. But His writings require interpretation, as many of them are written in a "condense" form.
Baha'u'llah appointed Abdulbaha, as the infallible successor and the Only person who after Him, would be able to 'officially' inteprete His verses.

1. Bahai's support the elimination of prejudice of all kinds. The Bahai Universal House of Justice (World Government?) does not accept women as members. Homosexuals are forbidden to sit on governing bodies at any level. Have you ever heard of 'doublethink'?

To learn about Universal House of justice please see:
Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, the members of Universal House of Justice, are not considered any higher station than you or me! They are given certain responsibilities regarding the Baha'i World, which you can learn from the link.
These members are not given any personal advantage as Worldy Life or wealth. They live a simple life.
Regarding, women not being part of Universal House of Justice, it seems to me you are assuming, that certain station or advantage is taken away from women. I disagree if that is the case.
Women can be part of local and national assemblies, but not Universal House of Justice. But they participate in voting at all levels.
Homosexuals can be Baha'is, but practicing homosextuality is not acceptable within Baha'i faith, and the Marriage is only between men and women.
The universal House of justice is 9 people which are selected out of nearly 6-7 millions Baha'is.

4. And those who are not Bahais may not vote?

Those who are not Baha'is do not follow the Baha'i Faith, neither they participate in Baha'i administrative activities and neither they obey the Baha'i Laws. Why would they even be interested in voting?

I suggest that we leave this debate now and let Christianity and Islam seek for any possible harmony, just together.

No body is forcing anybody to accept Baha'i View.
The Christians and Moslems have been arguing with each other, as well as with their own different sects and denominations for more than 1000 years. Had they been able to solve their problems and create unity, they have done so far. Moreover, God, does not leave His creatures alone. He always sends guidance to people, no matter how much people are reluctant to follow. He is God, He does what He wants, and no one can do anything about it. Just my openion....


Anyways, it seems to me, you have a quite pestimestic view. I mean, you have a prejudging view that tends to see everything as a negaive intention. I suggest, if you want to learn about Baha'i Faith, you look at things without bias or to accept or to reject. But just try to learn what is about. And please remember, learning about Baha'i Faith takes years for even the most active and practicing Baha'is, and even then, it is never possible to completely learn. There are nearlly 200 volumes of scriptures!

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Christianity is the right religion to follow cos it does not gain new coverts by force. it existed very long b4 the idea of Islam was ever conceived. the bible remains the only true book ever written whose prophecies are unblemishly accurate. moreso, the birth of Christ was declare more than two thousand years b4 he was born. lastly, the Surah (quoran) bear witness to the authority of the bible.

I think you are confused.

Christian crusaders who are still active to this day (Bush and Blair especially on their holy Jihad) only not on horseback but in drones and jet fighters never stopped forcing their opinions on others.
The popes were a succession of politcal war lords waging war on the 'infidel'.

In fact the Christians are famous for burning, torturing, chopping up, beheading and all other forms of unbelievable tortures to their own monks and priests!
They are famous for destroying texts and churches and monasteries.
They ran rampage with their Spanish Inquisition.
The Knights Templar and St John Knights and hospitaliers ate the bodies of Muslims in Ma'ara. Christian cannibals running wild in the middle East.

The Muslims at the time were terrified of these flesh eating madmen and had no idea how to deal with such barbarism supposedly in the name of God.
The Muslims had never seen anything like that before and feared the European Crusaders wondering what else they were capable of if they could eat human flesh.

The Christians forced the Muslims and Jews of Spain to covert or be killed (Marranos)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano

The Muslims were the ones who were defending their land and region and women and children from the Christian barbarian crusaders who spent years killing Muslims thousands of miles away so they 'could be saved by Jesus' as they thought.

The popes diverted the barbaric Europeans who lived in medieval times in the filth of Europe away from killing and raping and pillaging each other to killing and raping and pillaging the Muslims thousadns of miles away and all to steal their treasures to hand back to the pope for his battle chest so he could wage war on hi other European neighbours.

If there was forcing people to convert it was definitely the Christians who win that prize.

The Jews of Europe especially Spain lived under the protection of the Muslims who did not force them to convert (Usual Jihadwatch nonsense) when the witch hunt crazy cardinals went mad for blood. It was Isabella and Ferdinand that forced the Jews and tried to force Muslims to convert and many Jews did. The Muslims simply left Spain.