How can YHWH be the FATHER?

[teage]

@teage
I wonder if you would find Gnostic The Nag Hamadi Library interesting?

I don't know, I will have a look. Thank you

 

[Sumadji]

I don't know, I will have a look. Thank you

Nag Hamadi Library Alphabetical Index of documents

 

[IndigoChild5559]

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 7:9-11

Jesus is talking about Exodus.

Huh????? He's talking about the Exodus as much as he's talking about breakfast at Tiffany's.

What Jesus is doing here is a form of an analogy. He's saying, "You guys are evil sinners, but you treat your children with love. How much more does God, who is not an evil sinner, show love for you."

IOW it says exactly the opposite of your claim. Far from presenting God as evil, the whole POINT is that God loves us even more than we love our own children.

 

[Sumadji]

In the Old Testament YHWH is "Father" in the sense of the Creator.

I think that although God is occasionally referred to as the Father in the OT, it is Jesus who taught people to pray to God as a personal Father?

 

[teage]

Huh????? He's talking about the Exodus as much as he's talking about breakfast at Tiffany's.

What Jesus is doing here is a form of an analogy. He's saying, "You guys are evil sinners, but you treat your children with love. How much more does God, who is not an evil sinner, show love for you."

IOW it says exactly the opposite of your claim. Far from presenting God as evil, the whole POINT is that God loves us even more than we love our own children.

Nothing to argue, just a question if I may. Do you believe GOD answers prayers, and if so, do you believe that one could be deceived by getting an answer from something else? If so, how would you know if you are being deceived?

 

[Kenny]

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17

They did not die, they went on to live for hundred of years. YHWH also tempted them by planting it there in the first place. At the time, Adam and Eve had the mentality of a toddler. They didn't even know they were naked.

IMU, this is simply a misunderstanding of the word “death” and what the word “die” actually is in Hebrew.

1) The word “die” is plural and not singular. Some have said that you could rephrase in this fashion “In dying you will die”.
2) The cessation of life in the body is a death but not all deaths are the cessation of life. For an example, separation from the life of God is a spiritual death. Though one is still alive, one is living a life of separation from the life of God… which is spiritual death.
3) If as Paul said we are a three part being, then Adam and Eve first experienced spiritual death being separated from God. After that they experienced death in their soul or thinking process and began lying. Finally they experienced physical death with their body.

God never said “your body will instantly die” but rather in dying you will die. I understand it to mean a progressive death sentence.

 

[teage]

IMU, this is simply a misunderstanding of the word “death” and what the word “die” actually is in Hebrew.

1) The word “die” is plural and not singular. Some have said that you could rephrase in this fashion “In dying you will die”.
2) The cessation of life in the body is a death but not all deaths are the cessation of life. For an example, separation from the life of God is a spiritual death. Though one is still alive, one is living a life of separation from the life of God… which is spiritual death.
3) If as Paul said we are a three part being, then Adam and Eve first experienced spiritual death being separated from God. After that they experienced death in their soul or thinking process and began lying. Finally they experienced physical death with their body.

God never said “your body will instantly die” but rather in dying you will die. I understand it to mean a progressive death sentence.

Do you think that their spiritual death is permanent, as in they will not see heaven?

 

[Feedmysheep]

That would mean that YHWH murdered them, slowly, for over 900 or so yrs. Kind of cruel really. I guess us modern ppl are lucky, we get a quicker sentence.

Quite the contrary. Adam chose and must suffer the consequences of his choice.

The long period before his actual physical death gave him time to reconcile to God in repentance.
It also gave time for other human beings to be produced who could have God's salvation. For instance Abel returned in heart to God.
. . .
And Jehovah had regard for Abel and for his offering. But for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. (Gen. 3:4b,5a)

And in the days of Enosh the fourth generation, men began to turn back to God and call upon His name.

And to Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of Jehovah. (Gen. 4:26)

You keep reading. You keep reading all the way to the end of the Bible for a full rather than prejudiced picture.

 

[Kathryn]

Quite the contrary. Adam chose and must suffer the consequences of his choice.

The long period before his actual physical death gave him time to reconcile to God in repentance.
It also gave time for other human beings to be produced who could have God's salvation. For instance Abel returned in heart to God.
. . .
And Jehovah had regard for Abel and for his offering. But for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. (Gen. 3:4b,5a)

And in the days of Enosh the fourth generation, men began to turn back to God and call upon His name.

And to Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time men began to call upon the name of Jehovah. (Gen. 4:26)

You keep reading. You keep reading all the way to the end of the Bible for a full rather than prejudiced picture.

They have a lot invested in denying that YHWH is the Father.

 

[Feedmysheep]

By the way, welcome to RF!

Thankyou.

 

[Feedmysheep]

They have a lot invested in denying that YHWH is the Father.

Yes, the potential to develop a world without God had to be tried.
In fact man is still experimenting with a Godless world.

 

[Kenny]

Do you think that their spiritual death is permanent, as in they will not see heaven?

Not at all, according to my faith. When the veil was torn from top to bottom with an earthqueke and the Holy Spirit was shed abroad to the uttermost parts of the world because of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God’s invitation to receive spiritual life is offered to all.

It isn’t so much about “seeing Heaven’ but rather being joined back to God and to divine design, purpose and destiny. Being united as one with God.

 

[Dimi95]

The Bible does not support YHWH as the FATHER. It does however support him as the Adversary.

He lied to Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve could hear YHWH moving about so they hid.

YHWH could not find Adam and Eve?

Adam and Eve come out from hiding to greet YHWH. It doesn't specifically say, but one can gather that it was face to face. Jesus says more than once that no man has seen the FATHER.

Jacob seen YHWH face to face, even wrestled him. Again, Jesus says more than once no man has seen the FATHER.

Moses has talked to YHWH face to face, as a friend. That is pretty clear no metaphor needed. Again, Jesus says more than once that no man has seen the FATHER.

They asked Jesus the FATHER'S name. He does not tell them. Jesus says we don't speak the FATHERS name as it is holy(pure). Jesus says that even he does not speak his FATHER'S name. So who is this YHWH?

The FATHER is Holy, he is without sin, YHWH is by his own words a jealous God, and angry, and murderous.

YHWH says with his own words in
Hosea 13:8 I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
I believe Revelation 13:2 speaks for itself.

This is false dichtomy.

We don't know if Adam was real.
Adamah may just mean 'earth,ground'.
We don't know if Eve was real.
As far as i know the word 'hawwah' is etymologically connected with the word 'life'.
So out of this Earth , came life.
That's how i understand it.

I don't know why you persue this 'literal' understanding of the Bible..
And not just those who make these talks , but also those who answer in them.
Is it so important to you to read as literal as it gets?

When i see people write like:
"The Bible does not suppprt.."
How do you mean "The Bible does not support.."?
The Bible means just "The Book".
And it's not one book , it's a collection of books that were canonized in some part of History.

Where i come from we don't say library , we say "biblio-teka".
Words have meaning!

 

[teage]

As "the evil one"? No, the NT never promotes the idea that the God of the Jews is evil.

Yes, in the Lord's prayer, Jesus addresses it to the God of Israel. Even though he doesn't mention YHWH by name, that is who "our father" is. There is nothing in that prayer that states or even implies that "our father" is evil.

The part in the Lord's prayer that catches my attention is, "do not lead us into a time of testing/temptation, but deliver us from the evil one". Yhwh seems to test his subjects constantly. Exodus is full of testing for example.

 

[teage]

This is false dichtomy.

We don't know if Adam was real.
Adamah may just mean 'earth,ground'.
We don't know if Eve was real.
As far as i know the word 'hawwah' is etymologically connected with the word 'life'.
So out of this Earth , came life.
That's how i understand it.

I don't know why you persue this 'literal' understanding of the Bible..
And not just those who make these talks , but also those who answer in them.
Is it so important to you to read as literal as it gets?

When i see people write like:
"The Bible does not suppprt.."
How do you mean "The Bible does not support.."?
The Bible means just "The Book".
And it's not one book , it's a collection of books that were canonized in some part of History.

Where i come from we don't say library , we say "biblio-teka".
Words have meaning!

Because if I then are to "interpret" a clearly stated sentence, I would be changing what it means. I too can create my own separate "Faith" simply by adding metaphors and changing what it means. If I write "John crossed the road", that is then exactly what it means. Weather or not GOD is real, I believe strongly there is a connection to all the different faiths. The writings are sometimes too similar to ignore. This at a time when traveling across oceans was supposed to be not possible. It is even depicted in ancient art. This reassures me there is a GOD. That and my own experiences which have lead me here in the first place. It is important for me to have different opinions as they all have merit which isn't to say they are right or wrong, but could possibly give me direction in my own personal search for God.

I do appreciate your take on it, I have never looked at it in that way, which is why im here. Thank you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 7:9-11

Jesus is talking about Exodus.

Huh????? I have no clue where you are getting this so-called connection to the Exodus.

What Jesus is doing here is a form of an analogy. He's saying, "You guys are evil sinners, but you treat your children with love. How much more does God, who is not an evil sinner, show love for you."

IOW it says exactly the opposite of your claim. Far from presenting God as evil, the whole POINT is that God loves us even more than we love our own children.

I think that although God is occasionally referred to as the Father in the OT, it is Jesus who taught people to pray to God as a personal Father?

Why would you think that?

In Isaiah 63, Isaiah prays to God, and addresses him as father.
15 Look down from heaven and see,
from your lofty throne, holy and glorious.
Where are your zeal and your might?
Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.
16 But you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
or Israel acknowledge us;
you, Lord, are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The part in the Lord's prayer that catches my attention is, "do not lead us into a time of testing/temptation, but deliver us from the evil one".

The proper translation is "deliver us from evil," not "deliver us from the evil one." It is referring to Satan, not to YHWH. From Strongs:

6:13 And 2532 lead 1533 5661 us 2248 not 3361 into 1519 temptation 3986, but 235 deliver 4506 5663 us 2248 from 575 evil 4190: For 3754 thine 4675 is 2076 5748 the kingdom 932, and 2532 the power 1411, and 2532 the glory 1391, for 1519 ever 165. Amen 281.

Word: πονηρός

Pronounce: pon-ay-ros'

Strongs Number: G4190

Orig: from a derivative of 4192; hurtful, i.e. evil (properly, in effect or influence, and thus differing from 2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from 4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively, calamitous; also (passively) ill, i.e. diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, i.e. derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners:--bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked(-ness). See also 4191. G4192 G4550

Use: TDNT-6:546,912 Adjective

Heb Strong: H343 H873 H1681 H1800 H7200 H7227 H7451 H7489 H7489 H7563 H8441

1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships
1a) pressed and harassed by labours
1b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble
2) bad, of a bad nature or condition
2a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind
2b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad

For Synonyms see entry G5908
++++
The word is used in the nominative case in Mt 6:13. This usually denotes a title in the Greek. Hence Christ is saying, deliver us from "The Evil", and is probably referring to Satan.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nothing to argue, just a question if I may. Do you believe GOD answers prayers, and if so, do you believe that one could be deceived by getting an answer from something else? If so, how would you know if you are being deceived?

I am undecided whether Satan is a literal entity or whether he is simply a metaphor for our own inclination to evil. But if he is a literal entity, he does not answer prayers. In Judaism, Satan is not a fallen angel. Angels have no free will and cannot rebel. Satan is God's employee, albeit one with an awful job. He can do nothing that God does not allow. He is God's servant, not his equal.

Most of my life I have believed that God answers prayers. But that confidence has eroded. It is not simply my own experience with God not helping me in times of crisis (anecdotes are not evidence). It is that scientific research has pretty much shown that prayer simply doesn't make a statistically significant difference.

The best known study of this is the one with the 700 heart patients, each of which had heart surgery. They were randomly divided into three groups:
1. Those not prayed for.
2. Those who were prayed for by a religious congregation and were aware of it.
3. Those who were prayed for by a religious congregation and were NOT aware of it.
The results were that complications from the surgery happened just as often in each of the three groups. In fact, this is somewhat surprising given that we know the power of suggestion, and yet the group that knew it was prayed for had somewhat more complications than the other two groups (although this difference was not large enough to be statistically significant.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

1) The word “die” is plural and not singular.

Which word is plural?

The words in question are מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת -- Hebrew is read from right to left, so it would be transliterated mot tamut.

As i've quoted elsewhere (more than once) ...

... Robert Alter offers:​

​

But from the tree of knowledge, good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you are doomed to die.​

​

noting ...​

​

16-17. surely eat ... doomed to die. The form of the Hebrew in both instances is what grammarians call the infinite absolute: the infinitive followed by a conjugated form of the same verb. The general effect of this repetition is to add emphasis to the verb, but because in the case the verb "to die" it is the pattern regularly used in the Bible for issuing death sentences, "doomed to die" is an appropriate equivalent.​

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that tamut is future tense "you (masculine singular) will die."

 

[Sumadji]

Why would you think that?

In Isaiah 63, Isaiah prays to God, and addresses him as father.
15 Look down from heaven and see,
from your lofty throne, holy and glorious.
Where are your zeal and your might?
Your tenderness and compassion are withheld from us.
16 But you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
or Israel acknowledge us;
you, Lord, are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.

I won't argue. I said that the concept of God as Father was occasionally used in the Old Testament. But it doesn't predominate. I think Isiah is addressing God as the Father of the nation of Israel (us), as a king or sovereign ruler, and not as his own personal Father? David in the psalms sometimes addresses God personally entreating his own personal assistance, but David does not use the word Father? I'm open to correction.

It is Jesus who brought the idea of God as personal Father to front and centre?

It's just a thought

And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
Galatian 4:6