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How can YHWH be the FATHER?

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
To show how in Bible son of God or children of God is not the same as people commonly seems to think.

Actually this seems to be about what you think they believed. And sorry, I don't think you know it.

The problem with this is, you offer no good reason to believe you.

You are in the deep stages of denial -- this has nothing to do with what I think about what the canaanites believed .. but what modern theological scholarship says they believed :) .. by what the Bible says they believed .. by what History and Archaeology says they believed

If you can not handle what the Bible has to say this is fine .. but disbelieve the source .. and the message .. rather than the messenger .. and there is no reason to believe me about anything .. I have given you the various sources .. telling you what the Bible says the Canaanites believed ... .. for example here is what the Bible tells you about the Mighty God EL .. head of the Divine council aka "The Most High"

The phrase עֲדַת אֵל (ʿadat ʾel, “assembly of El”) appears only here in the OT. (1) Some understand “El” to refer to God himself. In this case he is pictured presiding over his own heavenly assembly. (2) Others take אֵל as a superlative here (“God stands in the great assembly”), as in Pss 36:6 and 80:10. (3) The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ʿdt ʾilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise. For an interpretation of the psalm along these lines, see W. VanGemeren, “Psalms,” EBC 5:533-36.

----------------

Don't try to demonize me friend .. I am only the messenger .. .. if you wish to demonize ... then demonize the source of that which troubles you .. in this case The Bible ..

and what is it you think Sons of the Most High God are in Psalm 82 and are these Gods different from the Gods YHWH is in the midst of in the Assembly of EL ?

We know who EL is in the story .. the Most High God who presides over the Canaanite "Divine Assembly" .. you understand the word Divine right ! who are these gods .. and are they the same as the sons of the most high God .. which is EL

I am asking you because this is what the Bible says ... stop crying out that you don't believe me .. this is about whether or not you believe what the Bible has to say .. what the Bible has to say about the Assembly of EL
 

1213

Well-Known Member
... then demonize the source of that which troubles you .. in this case The Bible ..
The Bible does't trouble me.
and what is it you think Sons of the Most High God are in Psalm 82 and are these Gods different from the Gods YHWH is in the midst of in the Assembly of EL ?
I think the other gods, who are called sons of God and angel lords or princes (Michael for example).
We know who EL is in the story ..
Yes, I think the El is YHWH.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
God and Jesus were both there, because as it is said, God dwells in Jesus.
Where is Jesus correcting Thomas for calling Him not only his Lord but his God?
I don't think he was calling Jesus God, otherwise he could have just said, "my God".
John in his prologue says in effect that all the seeing of God in the OT was now superceded.
It is in Jesus Christ God is manifest to us.
Bible tells Jesus is the image of God. Do you think an image is the same as the source of the image? If you have seen an image of a God, have you seen the God, is the image the God? If you answer yes, would you pay a same amount of money for an image of a house as for the actual house?

… He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation....
Col. 1:14-16
Paul says Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior.
Awaiting the blessed hope, even the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (Titus 2:13)
I don't think that means Jesus is the God. It is speaking of the glory of Jesus and God.
Peter also says Christ is our God and Savior.
Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Pet. 1:1)
This also is not saying Jesus is the God. It speaks of the righteousness of God and Jesus.
You do not believe God had to become a man in order to die?
I don't think Bible tells God had to become a man, nor that God died.
1.) But of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8)
God called also Moses a god. I don't think it means Jesus is the one and only true God then, because Bible tells there is only one true God who is greater than Jesus.

Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God [Elohim] to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Exod. 7:1
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
the Father is greater than I [Jesus].
John 14:28
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5
… we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:4-6
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What is an "angel lord"? And where does they exist in any of the monotheistic faiths? I can't seem to find any place an "angel lord" is mentioned either in the Bible or the Quran.
Bible uses the word "prince". And I have understood it means angel lord, a chief angel or leader angel.

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Daniel 10:13

this means one of the sons of god would be for example Michael.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
this means one of the sons of god would be for example Michael.
I have no problem with that. Job also refers to the angels as b'nai elohim, sons of god. And sometimes elohim is used in the plural to refer to angels. I just never heard the expression angel lords. Thank you for explaining.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
The Bible does't trouble me.

I think the other gods, who are called sons of God and angel lords or princes (Michael for example).

Yes, I think the El is YHWH.

Clearly the Bible does trouble you as it states that EL is Head of the Canaanite Pantheon .. and that YHWH is a Son of EL .. and that these are two completely separate Gods .. the Israelites believeing in Both .. and worshiping both .. which God did you think was being worshiped at the Golden Calf incident Hint" Bull EL is one of th epithets of EL .. .. to claim that Bull EL and YHWH were believed to be the same God is obviously preposterous nonsense on this basis.

You are more than welcome to define lesser Gods as Angels but since you have no idea what your definition of "lesser gods" is .. this definition is meaningless. So .. is the angel Micheal a "Son of God" .. as in Job and Deuteronomy 43 where these divinities are visiting the "Most High" God EL .. who has 70 sons ? So you are now claiming that the Angel Michael is one of these son of God and if not .. distinguish between a lesser God and an Angel .. in terms of Godly Power and other distinguishing things.

And then .. tell us about the nature of the tester of souls .. Chief "God" over the earth ... with great godly powers like that of Greek Gods like Zeus or Posidon .. the "son of God" sent by EL to Test Jesus .. is this an Angel or a lesser God .. or both .. or neither.
 

Feedmysheep

Active Member
God and Jesus were both there, because as it is said, God dwells in Jesus.
The Father dwells in Jesus and Jesus dwells in the Father.

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? (John 14:10a)
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; (11a)


I don't think he was calling Jesus God, otherwise he could have just said, "my God".
He was calling Jesus both his Lord and his God.
I too confess before God, Satan, and the world that the man Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

You sound like you're an old hand at this and are ready with various reasons of unbelief.
I won't be joining you in this heresy. When I call on the name of the Lord Jesus I know that I touch God.

The Son of God is indeed Wonderful. [peleh] (Isa. 9;6)

What is wonderful is enjoyable yet hard to fully comprehend. This word in Hebrew is used in some other notable places.

Ie. Oh, knowledge too wonderful for me! / It is so high; I cannot attain to it. (Psa. 139:6)

And the Angel of Jehovah said to him, Why do you ask about My name, since it is wonderful? (Judges 13:6)


Bible tells Jesus is the image of God.
It says that and it also said the glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ. I am a believer.

. . . the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them.
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, . . . (2 Cor. 4:4b)
Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (v.6)

It also says that the Word who was with God was God. And this Word became flesh. (John 1:1,14)
Do you think an image is the same as the source of the image?
I believe we should learn what the God has said. And we should learn again what God has also said.
I believe what is written. And I believe also again what is written. (Matt. 4:7)
Otherwise the subtle Devil can even use what is written in a unbalanced way to deceive the saints.

Again God also said Christ is the image of the invisible God. And God ALSO said that the Son is God.

But of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, . . .
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God,
Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners”;
(Heb. 1:8,9)

So rather than being lopsided, using one thing written to suppress something else written,
I reserve the right to believe ALL that God has said.

When you are too one sided you become like "a cake not turned" like Ephraim.
That means all toasty cooked on one side yet still raw and uncooked on the other side.

Ephraim — among the peoples / He mixes himself; / Ephraim is a cake / Not turned. (Hosea 7:8)

Like groups like "The Way International" or the "Jehovah's Witnesses" you teach a lopsided biased view that Christ's deity is
incomplete. This is the old Arian concept rightfully rejected by the ancient brethren centuries ago. I think they did a good
job to protect the truth of the gospel.

Sorry to see you rehash these old deviations from the Gospel.
If you have seen an image of a God, have you seen the God, is the image the God?
Yes, in the case of those seeing the man Jesus.


We should see that God is to be lived in us. And the New Testament says about those who receive Christ, God lives in them.

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God. ( 1 John 4:15)
I did not see Jesus physically yet. But God in Christ has come to abide in me and I in God.

While you're priority may be on physically seeing God the Gospel's emphasizes that we live God through God being
dispensed into us as divine life.

Jesus said He and His Father would come as the divine "We" to make an abode with His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

So the Son and the Father as the Spirit indwell the lovers of Jesus. The triune God comes to be our life.
We can detect no difference within us. We who have received this divine "We" of the Father and the Son do not physically
see God. But we can subjectively detect no seperation of the Father and the Son.

Maybe you lack experience and are more tangled up with doctrinal matters in the mind.
That is to reduce the Wonderful into something like a computer flow chart for mental explanation in a purely objective way.

At any rate, even according to doctrine, the man Jesus is God as well as the image of God and the effulgence of His glory.

God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets,
Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe;

Who, being the effulgence of His glory and the impress of His substance and upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb. 1:1-3)

Just a few verses latter the writer also says this Son is the One being spoken of in the entire Psalm 102. Read the whole Psalm including
what the writer of Hebrews quotes.

And, “You [the Son - v.8] in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not fail.”
(Heb. 1:0-12)


I made a song to this passage.

If you answer yes, would you pay a same amount of money for an image of a house as for the actual house?
I believe the glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ as the NT tells.
One day I will see Him as He is. And I also will be like Him - conformed to His image according to His will and covenant.

Now it is the Christian's responsibility to learn to live Christ which is to live in God.

When Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome he is talking in the way of subjective enjoyment
rather than as mere objective doctrine. Notice how he moves seamlessly between these interchangeable names of the indwelling One.

. . . the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.


Who is the One indwelling and living in the Christians?

He is
"the Spirit of God".
But wait. He is also "the Spirit of Christ".
But wait. He is also "Christ" Himself.
But yet wait. He is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead."

As we live in this divine and mystical realm we cannot detect any seperation between the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

God is the Triune Father - Son - Holy Spirit to be dispensed into man that we may live unto, live through, and live out God.
… He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation....
Col. 1:14-16
For Christ to be the Firstborn of all creation does not mean timewise He is the first thing God created.
That is the mistake of the Arians and the modern students of Charles Russell of the Watchtower Society.

It means as a man into which God was incarnated, He was the preeminent one in all creation.
He as the man which He became has the first place, the preeminent place, the most importance place among everything
created by God.

When "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) He made that man the highest matter in all time and eternity of things created by God.
It is without dispute that man is a created item of God (Genesis 1:26.27). And the Word who was with God and was God became
a man. In that way He became the Firstborn of all creation. (Col. 1:14-16)

For length's sake other comments I may write latter.
The nature of your other explanations are further attempts at denying the deity of Jesus Christ in a kind of preferencial one sided emphasis
of Bible verses.
 
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Feedmysheep

Active Member
I don't think Bible tells God had to become a man, nor that God died.
Have you received Christ? If you have not that would explain your unbelief.
Perhaps you have no experience subjectively of this indwelling One because of not receiving Him into your heart.

God of the OT testament being the man is witnessed clearly by Matthew 23:37.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!


This is the man Jesus saying what God would do in the OT. It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem as a bird flutters
over her young
(Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when the Lord Jesus the man said, "i desired to gather yourchildren together, the way a hengathers her brood under her wings," He indicated that He was God Himself.

No, I do not believe that God died or can die. But the man who is the mingling of God and man died.
That is the point isn't it? That He pass through death as it could not hold Him. He was vindicated in that
the Bible says the Father raised Him, one hand, yet He Himself had the authority to take up His life again.

Raised by the Father -
Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead, (Gal. 1:1)

This man, . . . Whom God has raised up, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Acts 2:24)

Jesus raised Himself - For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father. (John 10:17,18)

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?
But He spoke of the temple of His body. (John 2:19-21)

So as I said before He had to become a man in order to die.
And because He is God the effectiveness of His redemptive death has eternal efficacy.

God called also Moses a god. I don't think it means Jesus is the one and only true God then, because Bible tells there is only one true God who is greater than Jesus.
This is too objective as to misunderstand. God went through a process of two becames to dispense Himself into His redeemed.
The Word who was God became flesh. (John 1:14)
The last Adam became a life giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

You should look at this as a kind of divine journey of God out from eternity INTO man to impart eternal life.
When we receive the Holy Spirit He becomes united with our spirit to form one spirit.
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)
That means part of our being is God. Otherwise the divine "We" of the Father and the Son could not make an abode with us.

God became man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in His Godhead.
This is His eternal purpose for which He created all things.
And Christ as God-man is the Head of this new divinized humanity.

His Godhead and non-cummunicable attributes we cannot share.
The redeemed can never be uncreated.
They can never be omniscient or omipotent or omnipresent.
They can never be creators of universes or object of worship.

But God became a man to unite humanity and divinity in a mingled way.
So we must be eternally redeemed by His death and resurrection and indwelt by Him.
We must open up our entire being to receive Him and allow Him to fill every chamber of our heart.

His unique Fatherhood is His. But we His sons become "partakers of the divine nature".
Don't miss all the eternal enjoyment of this.

He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. ( 2 Pet. 1:4b)

In this light now go back and read and believe John 17:3 and the entire prayer for that matter.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3)

Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God [Elohim] to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Exod. 7:1
Yes, He made Moses as God to Pharoah. Let us go on into the New Testament where God becomes the life of man.
What could be more subjective to a person than their life? Fallen man including Moses and Pharoah were
alienated from the life of God. This means before the new covenant God could not be the inner life of man.

Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (Eph. 4:14)

God made Moses as God to Pharoah. But it is not until the redemption of Christ and His becoming life giving Spirit to enter into
our innermost being that God can become life to us. And we can not only be onlookers or spectators of the divine nature but PARTAKERS
of the divine nature.

Your teaching of the incomplete deity of Jesus Christ has three terrible consequences at least.

1.) You under appreciate that God was incarnated.
2.) You under appreciate the encredible work of His redemption.
3.) You under appreciate that now the Triune God can become the indwelling One in man to be life to us.

Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Because the freshness of His resurrection must be enjoyed by His Father before anyone else He would not permit any of the disciples to
touch Him. He first must ascend to the Father for His enjoyment of the resurrected Son.

That was in the morning. Latter in the evening He returned from Heaven and THEN allowed the disciples to touch Him effectionally.

This is about the secret ascension to Heaven on the same day He rose.
His public ascension in view of His disciples came some weeks after from the Mount of Olives.

The Father had to be the FIRST to enjoy His resurrected body.
More needs to be said about this wonderful passage.

Thankyou for quoting the word which I love to take in as FOOD for my spirit.
There is nothing like the pure word of God. But we should say Amen to ALL of it everywhere.
And we should take it in for nourishment and not feel obligated to quickly reconcile all its paradoxes.

… we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:4-6
The key here is that TO US there is one God.
Are you part of the US?
If you are of the US of Christian bothers of the household of the faith there is one God - the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
 

teage

Member
YHWH was a cannaanite war and weather god adopted by the Israelites as their tribal god.The Israelites adopted Yahweh because it justified Mose’s plan to invade cannaan and take the land of cannaan by violence. The Israelites learned of Yahweh from the Shasu. We have ancient artifacts of Egyption carvings that refer to Yahweh of the Shasu. Predates Yahweh of the Israelites. El was and IS the only FATHER. I'm sorry fellas, your Yahweh is an impostor.

Yahweh is one of the son's of EL. Brother to Baal, another son of EL, Brother to Anat (EL's daughter), there are more.
Counsel of Gods.

Yahweh is jealous, as he admits in his own words, he wants total control, to be as the "Most High" (EL)

EL gives Yahweh his portion, as the bible tells.

The bible indeed tells the truth, if you open your eyes.
6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord(Yahweh)? Who is like the Lord(Yahweh) among the heavenly beings,
7 a God(EL) who is honored in the great angelic assembly, and more awesome than all who surround him?

Psalm 89:6-7 - Comparing Yahweh to EL

8 When the Most High(EL) gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.
9 For the Lord’s(Yahweh) allotment is his people, Jacob is his special possession.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 Gift to Yahweh from EL
 
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teage

Member
YHWH was a cannaanite war and weather god adopted by the Israelites as their tribal god.The Israelites adopted Yahweh because it justified Mose’s plan to invade cannaan and take the land of cannaan by violence. The Israelites learned of Yahweh from the Shasu. We have ancient artifacts of Egyption carvings that refer to Yahweh of the Shasu. Predates Yahweh of the Israelites. El was and IS the only FATHER. I'm sorry fellas, your Yahweh is an impostor.

Yahweh is one of the son's of EL. Brother to Baal, another son of EL, Brother to Anat (EL's daughter), there are more.
Counsel of Gods.

Yahweh is jealous, as he admits in his own words, he wants total control, to be as the "Most High" (EL)

EL gives Yahweh his portion, as the bible tells.

The bible indeed tells the truth, if you open your eyes.
6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord(Yahweh)? Who is like the Lord(Yahweh) among the heavenly beings,
7 a God(EL) who is honored in the great angelic assembly, and more awesome than all who surround him?

Psalm 89:6-7 - Comparing Yahweh to EL

8 When the Most High(EL) gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.
9 For the Lord’s(Yahweh) allotment is his people, Jacob is his special possession.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 Gift to Yahweh from EL
Jesus knew who Yahweh was. As he was speaking to the pharisees, among other believers. By the way, who are these pharisees? They are religious ppls, teachers. Who is the pharisees god? Yahweh.

You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44 - The entire conversation is worth reading. 8:38 - 8:44

Jesus is trying to tell you yet you close your eyes with silly "meanings" and "metaphors".
 
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teage

Member
YHWH was a cannaanite war and weather god adopted by the Israelites as their tribal god.The Israelites adopted Yahweh because it justified Mose’s plan to invade cannaan and take the land of cannaan by violence. The Israelites learned of Yahweh from the Shasu. We have ancient artifacts of Egyption carvings that refer to Yahweh of the Shasu. Predates Yahweh of the Israelites. El was and IS the only FATHER. I'm sorry fellas, your Yahweh is an impostor.

Yahweh is one of the son's of EL. Brother to Baal, another son of EL, Brother to Anat (EL's daughter), there are more.
Counsel of Gods.

Yahweh is jealous, as he admits in his own words, he wants total control, to be as the "Most High" (EL)

EL gives Yahweh his portion, as the bible tells.

The bible indeed tells the truth, if you open your eyes.
6 For who in the skies can compare to the Lord(Yahweh)? Who is like the Lord(Yahweh) among the heavenly beings,
7 a God(EL) who is honored in the great angelic assembly, and more awesome than all who surround him?

Psalm 89:6-7 - Comparing Yahweh to EL

8 When the Most High(EL) gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.
9 For the Lord’s(Yahweh) allotment is his people, Jacob is his special possession.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 Gift to Yahweh from EL
Jesus knew who Yahweh was. As he was speaking to the pharisees, among other believers. By the way, who are these pharisees? They are religious ppls, teachers. Who is the pharisees god? Yahweh.

You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44 - The entire conversation is worth reading. 8:38 - 8:44

Jesus is trying to tell you yet you close your eyes with silly "meanings" and "metaphors".
 
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Feedmysheep

Active Member
YHWH was a cannaanite war and weather god adopted by the Israelites as their tribal god.The Israelites adopted Yahweh because it justified Mose’s plan to invade cannaan and take the land of cannaan by violence.
This is very unconvincing interpretation of the Hebew Bible. Very much indicative of someone who did not READ it. Or at least
you didn't read the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible well.

The whole earth was God's and usurped by Satan in his deception of man.
A portion of the whole earth God sought to recover as a beachhead to the whole planet.
But He would not execute this judgment on the Canaanites until they hit rock bottom in wickedness.
God told Abraham that He would not bring the Israelites to conquer Canaan until the Amorites could get no worse.

And He said to Abram, Know assuredly that your seed will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and they will serve them; and they will afflict them four hundred years.
But I will also judge that nation, whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.
. . .
And in the fourth generation they will come here again, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete. (Genesis 15:13,14,16)


You came to the Bible probably LOADED with what YOU wanted to see.

A few questions:

1.) Why did Moses want nothing to do with being Israel's leader when God called him? (Exo. 4:14)

1.) Why did Moses say God did not allow him to go into the Good Land? (Num. 20:12)

2.) Why did Moses say God forbade Israel to take the territories of certain other peoples in the area? (Deut. 2:5)

3.) Why did the Hebrew kings have a reputation of being merciful kings? (1 Kings 20:31)

4.) Why did God scold the Israelites for sometime being worse than the tribes they disposessed?
Wouldn't the writers of the history be better served to conceal and not mention this embarressing fact?
(Ezek. 5:6)

5.) Why does the book of Amos emphasize that God's righteous judgment would fall on Israel just as much as other
nations? (Amos chapters 1 - 2)

6.) Why than Moses prophecies that they would lose the inheritance because of their departing from God? (Deut. ch. 28)

The Hebrew Bible does not read like mere self grandizing national propoganda.
It is too frank, too honest about horribly bad moral lapses and divine punishment to "God's people."
It records the moral failures of some of its greatest national heroes without mercy.
Too many potentially embaressing and disqualifying information is told us about Israel.
 

teage

Member
This is very unconvincing interpretation of the Hebew Bible. Very much indicative of someone who did not READ it. Or at least
you didn't read the 39 books of the Hebrew Bible well.

The whole earth was God's and usurped by Satan in his deception of man.
A portion of the whole earth God sought to recover as a beachhead to the whole planet.
But He would not execute this judgment on the Canaanites until they hit rock bottom in wickedness.
God told Abraham that He would not bring the Israelites to conquer Canaan until the Amorites could get no worse.

And He said to Abram, Know assuredly that your seed will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and they will serve them; and they will afflict them four hundred years.
But I will also judge that nation, whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.
. . .
And in the fourth generation they will come here again, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete. (Genesis 15:13,14,16)


You came to the Bible probably LOADED with what YOU wanted to see.

A few questions:

1.) Why did Moses want nothing to do with being Israel's leader when God called him? (Exo. 4:14)

1.) Why did Moses say God did not allow him to go into the Good Land? (Num. 20:12)

2.) Why did Moses say God forbade Israel to take the territories of certain other peoples in the area? (Deut. 2:5)

3.) Why did the Hebrew kings have a reputation of being merciful kings? (1 Kings 20:31)

4.) Why did God scold the Israelites for sometime being worse than the tribes they disposessed?
Wouldn't the writers of the history be better served to conceal and not mention this embarressing fact?
(Ezek. 5:6)

5.) Why does the book of Amos emphasize that God's righteous judgment would fall on Israel just as much as other
nations? (Amos chapters 1 - 2)

6.) Why than Moses prophecies that they would lose the inheritance because of their departing from God? (Deut. ch. 28)

The Hebrew Bible does not read like mere self grandizing national propoganda.
It is too frank, too honest about horribly bad moral lapses and divine punishment to "God's people."
It records the moral failures of some of its greatest national heroes without mercy.
Too many potentially embaressing and disqualifying information is told us about Israel.
No, it is evidence based faith, according to the bible many times, is something everyone is supposed to practice.
 

Feedmysheep

Active Member
No, it is evidence based faith, according to the bible many times, is something everyone is supposed to practice.
The Christian has faith based on evidence.
That includes substantiating the reality of Christ as alive and available.

The Bible's definition of faith is our substantiating of the things unseen.

Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1)

The power of God operates to save men thoroughly from with through hope. We are saved in the realm of faith.

For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance. (Rom. 8:24,25)

You did not comment on any of the passages I presented one way or another.
I think in essence you are asking everyone to have faith in YOU and your kind of skewed view of the Bible.
It seems a view hell bent on a slanderous portrayal of God.
 

teage

Member
The Christian has faith based on evidence.
That includes substantiating the reality of Christ as alive and available.

The Bible's definition of faith is our substantiating of the things unseen.

Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1)

The power of God operates to save men thoroughly from with through hope. We are saved in the realm of faith.

For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance. (Rom. 8:24,25)

You did not comment on any of the passages I presented one way or another.
I think in essence you are asking everyone to have faith in YOU and your kind of skewed view of the Bible.
It seems a view hell bent on a slanderous portrayal of God.
There is nothing to debate in those verses. Yhwh is god of Israel as was granted by EL, his FATHER. Not sure what you are getting at other than you disagree with the ancient tablets and their writings. Which is odd because you are literally reading a book which comes from other ancient tablets and scrolls.
 

teage

Member
A little background on the Shasu:
The Shasu were a group of semi-nomadic tribes living in the Southern Levant, frequently attested to in Egyptian texts. The term “Shasu of Yahweh” appears in two Egyptian inscriptions, dating back to the 14th and 13th centuries BCE.
Scholars propose that the Israelites were influenced by the Shasu deity Yahweh and incorporated it into their religion. This theory is supported by the fact that the Israelite religion emerged later, around the 13th century BCE, and the Shasu texts predate this period.

Biblical Verse:
Poetic biblical verses also speak of YHWH appearing from Teman, which may be a reference to the Shasu’s association with this region.

Yahweh of the Shasu represents an enigmatic and ancient deity, worshipped by a group of semi-nomadic tribes in the Southern Levant. While the exact nature and significance of Yahweh in these inscriptions remain debated, the Shasu’s association with this deity provides valuable insights into the complex cultural exchange and religious influences that shaped the development of Israelite religion.
 

Feedmysheep

Active Member
Jesus knew who Yahweh was. As he was speaking to the pharisees, among other believers. By the way, who are these pharisees? They are religious ppls, teachers. Who is the pharisees god? Yahweh.

You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:44 - The entire conversation is worth reading. 8:38 - 8:44

Jesus is trying to tell you yet you close your eyes with silly "meanings" and "metaphors".
You're twisting the passage. The first person to suffer from this kind of twisting is yourself.
You want to distance Christ from the God He called "Righteous Father."

The thrust of your kind of interpretation of the New Testament reminds me of Marcionism.

"Marcionism was an early heresy led by Marcion, who proposed the first canon of Christian texts. The proposed canon consisted of the Gospel of Luke and several of Paul's epistles; however, Marcion edited the writings by deleting any references that appeared to approve of the Old Testament and the creator God of the Jews. Marcionism thus rejected the Old Testament God, claiming that Jesus represented the true sovereign God who was different from the God of the Hebrew people.

Marcion's proposal for a "New Testament" helped to spur others to respond with other canons that retained the Hebrew scriptures and did not reject Christianity's Jewish heritage. Athanasius, in response to Marcionism, recommended that the Church approve the 27 books which comprise the Christian New Testament."

Quoted from Theopedia
 

Feedmysheep

Active Member
There is nothing to debate in those verses. Yhwh is god of Israel as was granted by EL, his FATHER. Not sure what you are getting at other than you disagree with the ancient tablets and their writings. Which is odd because you are literally reading a book which comes from other ancient tablets and scrolls.
What am I getting at? I really told you already.
You come to the Bible loaded with pre-conceived biases which you want to read into the text.
All your historical research furnishes the fuel for the task. This is your "Any god BUT YHWH" Old Testament theology.
 

Feedmysheep

Active Member
Clearly the Bible does trouble you as it states that EL is Head of the Canaanite Pantheon .. and that YHWH is a Son of EL .. and that these are two completely separate Gods .. the Israelites believeing in Both .. and worshiping both .. which God did you think was being worshiped at the Golden Calf incident Hint" Bull EL is one of th epithets of EL .. .. to claim that Bull EL and YHWH were believed to be the same God is obviously preposterous nonsense on this basis.
Did Moses encourage this mixture of devotions or discourage it?
Did the tribe of Levi who became the Levitical priesthood encourage the mixture or set to eliminate it?
 
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