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How can you accept evolution and still have a spiritual reality, and/or a God faith

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Some of them were aggressive, like Thomas Huxley.

Some still are, like Dawkins and Coyne, only too happy to play the ridicule card and overwhelm people by referring to the sheer volume of "scientific evidence" to fend off any opposition.

Some, like Darwin, were not so aggressive but couldn't escape from the sheer weight of evidence supporting evolution, and the coherence it brought to the understanding of nature.

Nor can thoughtful folk today.

This does not take into account that the Creator is not testable by any means of man's contrivance. The fact that his existence is not testable could also mean that humans are not yet advanced enough to comprehend a being with power capable of creating the universe. That would be tantamount to a slug trying to comprehend quantum physics. Does it ever occur to humans that they may not be the sharpest tools in the shed?

What's an example of this?

One would be calling adaptation "evolution" without qualification. Science has proven in a lab that adaptation is indeed a mechanism 'installed in the software' of all living things. Ability to adapt to new surroundings and food sources is a survival mechanism...and an awesome one. But taking what can be proven in a lab and insinuating that they have good evidence that adaptation can be carried over into the creation of new organisms is not exactly truthful. They have no evidence for that unless they manufacture it....and manufacture it they have in vast volumes of "evidence". The thing they neglect to mention is the suggestive nature of their claims and the inference and assumptions that take place in those explanations. Calling it all "evolution" implies that it can all be proven, when that is simply not true. They can prove adaptation but that is where the truth ends and fantasy begins.

And does it matter to the modern theory of evolution, which has been confirmed and expanded ever since Darwin, not least when genetics became available as a tool by which the old morphological taxonomies were reexamined and where necessary redefined.

I would like to see the actual evidence for "morphology". As far as I have ever researched, this "morphology is based on nothing but suggestion as to what "might have" or "could have" happened all those millions of years ago. Anything based on a "might have" or a "could have" is not a fact....it is an unsubstantiated assumption, put forward as a suggestion and then embellished with a heap of biased interpretation of evidence. We see fossils lined up in a 'chain' of supposed evolutionary changes and yet no one can even prove that they were ever in a line, or that there is any relationship, let alone a morphing.

I don't think you could say that if you were aware of the sheer volume and consistency of the evidence.

The sheer volume is just that.....sheer volume of claims....not real evidence. All that volume is not provable and therefore there are no "facts" in science. How is it taught as truth when it is only suggestion supported by biased interpretation of evidence?

But the arguments against an Intelligent Designer are numerous and very strong.

No they are not. The arguments against ID are as weak as dishwater because of the way science demands evidence to be presented. If you can't prove something by their methods, then it can't be considered "scientific". And yet science cannot even substantiate their own claims by the same criteria. They can prove nothing, which puts them on equal ground with those who believe in ID. They have a belief system just like we do, dependent on faith in what science asserts.

No evidence supports the claim, for instance. If you remember the Dover trial, Michael Behe gave evidence about 'irreducible complexity', the only purported evidence for ID (and I say 'purported' because even were it correct it wouldn't be evidence for ID). Yet every single one of his examples was explained by real scientists as the result of exaptation. Behe had known he had a problem with exaptation since no later than 2002, but he hadn't fixed it by the Dover Trial (2005) and he hasn't fixed it since.

OK, lets look at "Exaptations"....

An "exaptation" is just one example of a characteristic that evolved, but that isn't considered an adaptation. Evolutionary biologists Stephen Gould and Elizabeth Vrba proposed vocabulary to let biologists talk about features that are and are not adaptations:

  • Adaptation — a feature produced by natural selection for its current function (such as echolocation in bats, right).
  • Exaptation — a feature that performs a function but that was not produced by natural selection for its current use. Perhaps the feature was produced by natural selection for a function other than the one it currently performs and was then co-opted for its current function. For example, feathers might have originally arisen in the context of selection for insulation, and only later were they co-opted for flight. In this case, the general form of feathers is an adaptation for insulation and an exaptation for flight.
Now in the explanation above from Exaptations are those hidden little words...."perhaps" and "might have". Do you see what is built on "perhaps" and "might have"? "In this case" meaning that if that actually happened, (and there is no proof that it did,) then we might suggest a whole bunch of things based on what might have happened even if it didn't. Most people don't see what they don't want to.

What did the Dover trial accomplish? It simply stated that ID was not "science" (by science's own definition) and should not be taught in a science class. I have never argued with that, but at the same time, it was tried under the definition of man's law and by the "scientific method", invented by scientists, neither of which has anything to do with God or creation. God does not need man's law to establish himself as Creator and I am sure he laughs when scientists claim that he can't exist by using their own limited means to establish his non-existence. :p

And of course the case is famous for the attempts of Dembski, Meyer and Campbell to get ID statements into evidence without having to be cross-examined on them; and how when it became clear that if they did so they couldn't avoid cross-examination, they turned and fled for the distant hills like Bold Sir Robin.
I'm not technically an atheist, but if I'm wrong I'm always pleased to be put straight.

I have been a Bible believer for most of my life, being raised in a "Christian" home and being sent to "Sunday School" and doing my confirmation and feeling as empty as a bucket walking out of church every week. When my parents told me that after my confirmation I could choose to do as I pleased, I never set foot inside that church again. But I never lost my faith in God...only in the hypocritical church system. Searching in other denominations brought me no closer to finding the God I saw so clearly in creation....so I gave up and took an excursion into evolution to see if I had been wrong all that time. I found it so unsatisfying that I couldn't believe what was being shoved down my throat in a stronger fashion than religion was.

I was in limbo searching for a while, not knowing where to turn next......and then JW's knocked on my door. I didn't see them as any different to all the rest until I started asking all the hard questions. No one could answer them...but these people did, not from their own belief system, but straight from the Bible. I became a Bible student right then and there, as opposed to being a church-goer...a mere pew warmer. I haven't stopped learning since and I have a passion for the God of the Bible that has not waned in over 45 years. I don't need science to tell me that God doesn't exist.....I know he does, and he has proved himself to me over the years in more ways than I can count. God is as much an experience as he is a personage. So explaining God to someone who hasn't 'experienced' him is like explaining colors to someone born blind. You can know color exists because people tell you it does, but unless you experience color with your senses, it is just talk.

As for God showing up, what test are we going to use to determine whether the being making the claim is a god or not? What is a real god? For my part I have no idea and no one will tell me.

I do not claim to know 'what' God is....all I know is 'who' he is, and what he has accomplished from what he has revealed to all in his communications with humankind.

A Spirit Being is not in the realms of our experience to describe, or to portray in words.....we are just not equipped with any means to quantify such a Being. But, according to the Bible, when he "shows up" it will be one of those events that will leave us in no doubt about his existence.....mankind will be judged and the judge will chose the ones who qualify for citizenship in his kingdom. All I can hope for is his nod of approval.....
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some still are, like Dawkins and Coyne, only too happy to play the ridicule card and overwhelm people by referring to the sheer volume of "scientific evidence" to fend off any opposition.
I'm inclined to agree. While I think Dawkins' arguments are sound within their parameters, I disagree with his conclusion that all religion is ipso facto pernicious. (I do however hold the view that fundamentalism is pernicious.)
This does not take into account that the Creator is not testable by any means of man's contrivance.
To which it is fair to reply, what Creator?
The fact that his existence
If such a being exists outside of imagination; and the lack of any coherent concept of a god with objective existence strongly suggests it doesn't.
is not testable could also mean that humans are not yet advanced enough to comprehend a being with power capable of creating the universe.
But such a being wouldn't have to be a god. He/she/it/they/other may simply be a superscientist, not a god. This is where the missing definition of a real god, one that would allow us to determine whether any candidate were a real god or not, becomes crucial, and arguably fatal, to the pro-God argument.
Does it ever occur to humans that they may not be the sharpest tools in the shed?
You'd have to admit that no evidence suggests anyone else examined reality with sufficient care to devise the Standard Model and quantum mechanics.
One would be calling adaptation "evolution" without qualification.
Not 'adaptation' ─ exaptation. That's when a body part evolved for purpose A further evolves because it fulfills purpose B. A usual example is >the bones of the ear<.
I would like to see the actual evidence for "morphology". As far as I have ever researched, this "morphology is based on nothing but suggestion as to what "might have" or "could have" happened all those millions of years ago.
As I said, morphology as a means of classification into taxons was replaced by genetics.
The sheer volume is just that.....sheer volume of claims....not real evidence.
What do you mean by 'real evidence'?

And what do you make of the sheer consistency of the results of research on the basis of the modern theory of evolution?

And if you're not familiar with it (and you don't seem to be, but correct me if I'm wrong) then you need to be before you criticize it. Criticism on the basis of religious belief unsupported by examinable evidence doesn't count in science, for sound reasons which you already know.
The arguments against ID are as weak as dishwater because of the way science demands evidence to be presented.
What evidence? You can't even say what the ID is, let alone why it should bother to fiddle with bits of heritable biology, let alone for what purpose it does so. It's all baseless waffle.
If you can't prove something by their methods, then it can't be considered "scientific".
Absolutely right. If you're not using scientific method, that's to say in outline, arguing honestly and transparently and without bias from examinable evidence, then you're not doing science.
And yet science cannot even substantiate their own claims by the same criteria. They can prove nothing
Delete 'prove', which tends to get confused with mathematical proofs, and substitute 'demonstrate'. Science proceeds by satisfactory demonstration. Religion does not and until it can offer a satisfactory definition of a god, it cannot, if only because it doesn't know what it's talking about.
I do not claim to know 'what' God is....all I know is 'who' he is, and what he has accomplished from what he has revealed to all in his communications with humankind.
If you don't know what he is, how do you know he's a he, and how do you know he's a god, and how do you know he's the only god? And if you have no evidence to demonstrate the correctness of your claims, why should any reasonable person agree with you?
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Does evolution totally remove God, and spirit from reality.

If yes, how so?

If no, how so?

Of course not. It's a ridiculous and unnecessary dichotomy.
I really do not see why Creationists have such a hard time accepted something that doesn't conflict with their primary claim.

IF God exists and created everything, he very obviously did so through biological means, right?

(Don't agree?Name a living system you've observed or studied that didn't have a biological history...)

So, if God exists, and he Created everything, the main driver of his creation was biological expansion - which is exactly what Evolutionary Biology explains.

Done.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
It's easy. Just read Genesis chapters 1 to 3 as a single source uncolored by the remarks of others, and see what the story actually says. (I did a thread on it >here<.)

What else in the bible is a retrofit? Any attempt to place Jesus in the Tanakh, for a start. Jesus is not the messiah of the Jews ─ ask any Jew. Jesus is not foretold in Isaiah's 'suffering servant', who represents the nation of Israel.

Also, any attempt to detect the Trinity in the NT ─ the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century and is incoherent anyway, and Jesus repeatedly denies that he's God, and says the Father is the God he worships. (I did a thread on it >here<.)

And much more, of course. Those Christians are complete rascals when it comes to retrofitting, pretending they own the bible of the Jews.
We have different texts. I don't criticize your texts. Why don't you leave the Bible alone and go rant on the Koran for a while?

FYI. If you read my original post, you'd see that your 3rd paragraph on the trinity is not relevant.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes. That's why He add plan "B" ready to go. Pretty smart guy!
Plan B:
KILL almost EVERYTHING! Women, Children, Fetuses. Don't just painlessly poof them out of existence. Drown them. Bury them alive in mudslides.

The problem here is that it wasn't a Plan B at all. An omniscient god doesn't need a Plan B. KILLING almost EVERYTHING was part of Plan A all along. Your omniscient god knew, for all of eternity, exactly what He was going to do - KILL almost EVERYTHING and then blame Adam & Eve.




Do you believe your God is omniscient?
Who cares what I believe? Check the scriptures themselves if you want to know about God. It's all there.
Who cares what you believe? You should care about what you believe. More important, you should care about why you believe.

From your posts, you seem to believe that God was surprised that Adam & Eve disobeyed Him. He had to come up with a Plan B.

An omniscient God cannot be surprised by anything. Therefore your God knew, for almost all of eternity, that he was going to kill virtually all of his creation. I guess a sadist would call that good planning.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Who cares what I believe? Check the scriptures themselves if you want to know about God. It's all there.
That is very true. I studied the Hindu scriptures and found all my answers about God there
Everyone looks at their holy writings. Everyone finds truth about God therein.

Different writings.
Different Gods.
But all is Truth. Uh huh.

At least one of you has not really found Truth. I'll leave it to the two of you to figure it out.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Everyone believes in science up to, and only up to, the point that it conflicts with their interpretations of holy scripture.

Some examples...

Why not? I've seen where science formerly disagree with the Bible, then came to agree with it, as modern science advanced.

For example, scientists formerly said a fetus was not viable before 26 weeks, now they see preemies routinely born and living at 20 weeks. So a 21-week fetus wasn't a human before and science "fixed" abortion for me in this area? Not at all...
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Plan B:
KILL almost EVERYTHING! Women, Children, Fetuses. Don't just painlessly poof them out of existence. Drown them. Bury them alive in mudslides.

The problem here is that it wasn't a Plan B at all. An omniscient god doesn't need a Plan B. KILLING almost EVERYTHING was part of Plan A all along. Your omniscient god knew, for all of eternity, exactly what He was going to do - KILL almost EVERYTHING and then blame Adam & Eve.
I get it. You don't believe the Bible. Lot's of people don't believe it. Usually it's people who have not actually read let alone studied it, but not always. Maybe you've spent years in research and came up with that conclusion. I'm thinking not, but not actually knowing anything about you, I could easily be wrong.
Who cares what you believe? You should care about what you believe. More important, you should care about why you believe.
Put another way, I use the Bible as my sole source of truth, not what man (myself included) thinks about truth. I just used a common idiom to state it. I guess you didn't get it. That's OK.
From your posts, you seem to believe that God was surprised that Adam & Eve disobeyed Him. He had to come up with a Plan B.

An omniscient God cannot be surprised by anything. Therefore your God knew, for almost all of eternity, that he was going to kill virtually all of his creation. I guess a sadist would call that good planning.
Which part specifically led you to think that? For the record, No. I don't think God was surprised.

All in all I think, you are being highly over critical. You are seeing demons behind every sentence. You're reading things into my posts that just aren't there.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 47
Everyone looks at their holy writings. Everyone finds truth about God therein.

Different writings.
Different Gods.
But all is Truth. Uh huh.

At least one of you has not really found Truth. I'll leave it to the two of you to figure it out.
That is the smartest answer I read today. Just let them figure it out for themselves:D:D:D
I do the same.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Everyone looks at their holy writings. Everyone finds truth about God therein.

Different writings.
Different Gods.
But all is Truth. Uh huh.

At least one of you has not really found Truth. I'll leave it to the two of you to figure it out.
Why don't you be nice and tell the both of us what is truth? On a second thought, forget it. You have no idea what truth is. You are just floundering around in a sea of speculation and popular opinion. Here today and gone tomorrow.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Why couldn't God(s) have designed evolution?
I'm about to use Genesis to show that God is not against evolution. I'm just going to tell you what it says. You can take it as truth, lies, mythical or anything else you want. I'm simply going to point out what it says. If you don't like Genesis, disregard the rest of this post. That would really be the smart thing to do. But if you are open to learning, read on.

Gen 1:21,

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
The word "kind" is the Greek word "genos" from which we get our word genus. According to the Bible, (I know it's considered at odds with science, just telling you what the book says about itself, belief is optional) evolution can in fact occur within a genus. Dogs can evolve into other dogs. Cats evolve into other cats, etc. What the Bible says can't happen is for a dog to evolve into a cat.

Genesis also talks about seed (sperm) and that may be worth some research in connection with evolution. I'll let you do that for yourself if you want.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I've seen where science formerly disagree with the Bible, then came to agree with it, as modern science advanced. For example, scientists formerly said a fetus was not viable before 26 weeks, now they see preemies routinely born and living at 20 weeks. So a 21-week fetus wasn't a human before and science "fixed" abortion for me in this area?
And where in the Bible does it say when a fetus is viable, or when it becomes human? Orthodox Judaism is based on the Bible, but only considers that we become human at birth.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have different texts. I don't criticize your texts.
I wasn't criticizing the texts at all. I was instead pointing out what they clearly said and what they just as clearly didn't say. That is, I was defending the texts against misinterpretation, not attacking them.

And if you find errors in books based on reasoned enquiry, by all means point them out ─ that's one of the important ways reasoned enquiry progresses understanding.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Everyone believes in science up to, and only up to, the point that it conflicts with their interpretations of holy scripture.
Why not? I've seen where science formerly disagree with the Bible, then came to agree with it, as modern science advanced.

For example, scientists formerly said a fetus was not viable before 26 weeks, now they see preemies routinely born and living at 20 weeks. So a 21-week fetus wasn't a human before and science "fixed" abortion for me in this area? Not at all...
So now you are OK with aborting a fetus at 19 weeks. Good. Now you can petition the Supreme Court to change their ruling.

That doesn't invalidate my comment.

People who do not interpret Genesis literally, easily believe in Evolution.
People who do not interpret Genesis literally, easily believe in Evolution.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I wasn't criticizing the texts at all. I was instead pointing out what they clearly said and what they just as clearly didn't say. That is, I was defending the texts against misinterpretation, not attacking them.

And if you find errors in books based on reasoned enquiry, by all means point them out ─ that's one of the important ways reasoned enquiry progresses understanding.
I see. I misunderstood.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Plan B:
KILL almost EVERYTHING! Women, Children, Fetuses. Don't just painlessly poof them out of existence. Drown them. Bury them alive in mudslides.

The problem here is that it wasn't a Plan B at all. An omniscient god doesn't need a Plan B. KILLING almost EVERYTHING was part of Plan A all along. Your omniscient god knew, for all of eternity, exactly what He was going to do - KILL almost EVERYTHING and then blame Adam & Eve.

From your posts, you seem to believe that God was surprised that Adam & Eve disobeyed Him. He had to come up with a Plan B.

An omniscient God cannot be surprised by anything. Therefore your God knew, for almost all of eternity, that he was going to kill virtually all of his creation. I guess a sadist would call that good planning.



I get it. You don't believe the Bible. Lot's of people don't believe it. Usually it's people who have not actually read let alone studied it, but not always.
Put another way, I use the Bible as my sole source of truth...
You're right. The Bible is nothing more than a bunch of myths that got put together into a couple of story books. But that's beside the point. The point is, if the stories are true, as you believe, then that doesn't speak very highly for your God. See my posts quoted above for reference.


Which part specifically led you to think that? For the record, No. I don't think God was surprised.

Your posts indicate that you believe God came up with a plan. That didn't work out, because A&E disobeyed Him. So, He had to come up with a plan B.

Perhaps I misunderstood your your previous posts. Now you are saying you don't think God was surprised. That's my belief also. As I stated previously:
The problem here is that it wasn't a Plan B at all. An omniscient god doesn't need a Plan B. KILLING almost EVERYTHING was part of Plan A all along. Your omniscient god knew, for all of eternity, exactly what He was going to do - KILL almost EVERYTHING and then blame Adam & Eve.​
I'm glad to see you are agreeing with me.




My numbering in following quote...
  1. All in all I think, you are being highly over critical.
  2. You are seeing demons behind every sentence.
  3. You're reading things into my posts that just aren't there.
  1. Highly critical of what?
  2. As an atheist I don't believe in demons any more than I believe in gods. So I'm certainly not seeing demons anywhere.
  3. First you stated the God came up with a plan B. That indicates that He didn't know plan A would fail. Now you state that He knew all along that A&E would disobey him. So whatever you labelled as plan B is really just a continuation of plan A.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Why don't you be nice and tell the both of us what is truth?

I don't have the unbridled ego to pretend I know TRUTH as many religious people believe they do. However, I will share one truth.

If you put fifty of these people, from different religions, into a room you would get many different versions of TRUTH.

If you put fifty of these people, all Christians, into a room, you would get many different versions of TRUTH.



On a second thought, forget it. You have no idea what truth is. You are just floundering around in a sea of speculation and popular opinion. Here today and gone tomorrow.

Instead of sarcastically telling me to be nice, why don't you try to address the question: Why is your TRUTH true and other people's TRUTH wrong?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
And where in the Bible does it say when a fetus is viable, or when it becomes human? Orthodox Judaism is based on the Bible, but only considers that we become human at birth.
Since you asked...
Beginning of human personhood - Wikipedia
Some medieval Christian theologians, such as Marsilio Ficino, held that ensoulment occurs when an infant takes its first breath of air. They cite, among other passages, Genesis 2:7, which reads: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."[13]

 
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