How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[ppp]

Why?

Lets assume that your god exists, and that I just stole candy from a baby.

There are two scenarios:
1. God knows that I will freely choose to do so, and puts me into this world.
2. God knows whats I will do like a puppet, and puts me in this world.

Either way God's intent was to have me be here so that I would steal that candy. If I do it of my own free will, that is functionally the same as if I were a puppet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Omnipotent combine with omniscience would mean that he would be the root cause of everything.

I don't know what you mean by 'root cause of everything.'

If God gave humans free will and humans make choices and act on those choices, then humans are the cause things to happen as a result of their choices.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lets assume that your god exists, and that I just stole candy from a baby.

There are two scenarios:
1. God knows that I will freely choose to do so, and puts me into this world.
2. God knows whats I will do like a puppet, and puts me in this world.

Either way God's intent was to have me be here so that I would steal that candy. If I do it of my own free will, that is functionally the same as if I were a puppet.

Sorry, that makes no sense to me.
What God knows what you will do has no bearing upon what you freely choose to do.
It was not God's intent that you would steal the candy, it was the choice you made that God knew you would make.
It was your intent to steal the candy and God knew you intended to steal the candy.

If my friend John knows I am going to steal a car tonight, did John 'cause' me to steal the car? No, I chose to steal a car and John knows I am going to steal it because I told him.

 

[Ponder This]

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

Hmm... No, I don't think that the literal story of Adam and Eve is part of a necessary minimal requirement to be Christian.
Assuming, of course that by "True Christian" you mean one who is sincere in belief. The capacity to recall and recount word for word the Biblical story... in Hebrew, of course, while being a commendable achievement is not the essence of being Christian for the common (honest) person, even assuming that the events of Genesis are a necessary prequisite to the events of the New Testament.
While the story of Adam and Eve may explain the fall of man, it is not necessary to be a learned scholar in order to be redeemed.

 

[ppp]

What God knows what you will do has no bearing upon what you freely choose to do.

I agree. There is nothing in what I wrote that states or implies that God's knowledge has any impact on my free choice.

There are two scenarios:
1. God knows that I will freely choose to do so, and puts me into this world.
2. God knows whats I will do like a puppet, and puts me in this world.

What practical difference in result is there between the two?

 

[ppp]

Hmm... No, I don't think that the literal story of Adam and Eve is part of a necessary minimal requirement to be Christian.
Assuming, of course that by "True Christian" you mean one who is sincere in belief.

The True Christian thing was a bit tongue in cheek. I had hoped the (TM) would convey that. My standard for determining if someone is a Christian is generally them telling me they are. There are obviously limits, but the boundaries are wide.

The capacity to recall and recount word for word the Biblical story... in Hebrew, of course, while being a commendable achievement is not the essence of being Christian for the common (honest) person, even assuming that the events of Genesis are a necessary prequisite to the events of the New Testament.

That is an interesting statement. And the one I hoped to discuss. Do you think that the Fall of Man happened in any way? And if so, then what was it that happened?

My follow up would be, if the Fall did not happen, what is from which you think humans need to be redeemed?

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. There is nothing in what I wrote that states or implies that God's knowledge has any impact on my free choice.

Then what do you think is causing you to choose?

There are two scenarios:
1. God knows that I will freely choose to do so, and puts me into this world.
2. God knows whats I will do like a puppet, and puts me in this world.

What practical difference in result is there between the two?

1. You freely choose so the choice was your choice.
2. You are God's puppet so the choice was not your choice.

 

[ppp]

Then what do you think is causing you to choose?

Doesn't matter. That is the point.

1. You freely choose so the choice was your choice.
2. You are God's puppet so the choice was not your choice.

I didnt ask for the difference in mechanism. I stated that from the beginning. I asked you, What practical difference in result is there between the two?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In classical Arabic usage, the word ḥūr (Arabic: حُور) is the plural of both ʾaḥwar (Arabic: أحْوَر) (masculine) and ḥawrāʾ (Arabic: حَوْراء) (feminine) which can be translated as "having eyes with an intense contrast of white and black".

Yeah, I know that. I am a frequent visitor to Wikipedia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I did not believe in the reality of the resurrection, I would not be a Christian, but another you.

Do you believe in resurrection and virgin birth just to remain a Christian?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't know what you mean by 'root cause of everything.'

If God gave humans free will and humans make choices and act on those choices, then humans are the cause things to happen as a result of their choices.

You name it, if you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God when you sneezed last week, that was him. There is no free will with such a God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it is not necessary to be a learned scholar in order to be redeemed.

Is it at all necessary to be redeemed by Jesus? One can be a good person without being a Christian (or for that matter, a Muslim).
That is why Hinduism stresses on being a good person, one who follows his duty 'dharma', irrespective of whether one is a Hindu, Christian or a Muslim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Doesn't matter. That is the point.

I think it does matter because if you had a choice you could have chosen to do something different. That's my point.

I didnt ask for the difference in mechanism. I stated that from the beginning. I asked you, What practical difference in result is there between the two?

There is no difference in the result.

 

[Trailblazer]

You name it, if you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God when you sneezed last week, that was him. There is no free will with such a God.

I disagree. There is free will because the omnipotent, omniscient God gave us free will to choose and He did not make our choices for us. It's that simple.
If you neezed last week, you sneezed. That was not a free will choice or anything God caused.

 

[Ponder This]

Is it at all necessary to be redeemed by Jesus? One can be a good person without being a Christian (or for that matter, a Muslim).
That is why Hinduism stresses on being a good person, one who follows his duty 'dharma', irrespective of whether one is a Hindu, Christian or a Muslim.

Um... yes, if you are a Christian, then redemption is necessary. It's not enough to be good, sin must also be accounted for.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disagree. There is free will because the omnipotent, omniscient God gave us free will to choose and He did not make our choices for us. It's that simple.
If you neezed last week, you sneezed. That was not a free will choice or anything God caused.

Then you are claiming that God is not omnipotent and omniscient. You cannot have it both ways. One or the other.

 

[ppp]

I think it does matter because if you had a choice you could have chosen to do something different. That's my point.

Okay. Explain why that matters. I will remind you that my position does not hinge on whether there was a choice. My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you are claiming that God is not omnipotent and omniscient. You cannot have it both ways. One or the other.

No, I am not claiming that God is not omnipotent and omniscient.
It is not one or the other. This all boils down to what we 'believe' it means for God to be omnipotent and omniscient.
You believe differently than I do.

 

[ppp]

I think it does matter because if you had a choice you could have chosen to do something different. That's my point.

Okay. Explain why that matters. I will remind you that my position does not hinge on whether there was a choice. My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. Explain why that matters. I will remind you that my position does not hinge on whether there was a choice. My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not.

It matters because if you made a choice that means you have free will to choose, but if you were God's puppet you are not free.