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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That's my argument against the Baha'i Faith... I don't believe that some of the people that the Baha'i Faith says are manifestations... are manifestations. Here's some information about who and what is a manifestation.

The Manifestations of God act as a pure mirror that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world.​

Manifestations of God are seen as Divine Educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing His will. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world and each one brings a book, and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.​
Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.​
Does any of this fit into any of the schools of Judaism? Because I often have asked Baha'is if Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses are considered to be anything more than ordinary men in Judaism.

Well, to be clear. I think the evidence that @Trailblazer wrote about in her post were messengers of God. Not manifestations. I think. Not sure.

But regardless, IMO, the messengers/manifestations do not need to be perfect mirrors to be valid evidence for God. There just needs to be global and numerous individuals who are connecting to something which is beyond human conception. As the numbers of these individuals goes up, the odds of God existing also goes up. That's my understanding of what is brought by the Bahai faith, and TB thumb'd up the post where I wrote that.

Also, I'm not a Bahai, so the way I relate to the idea of messengers/manifestations is not Bahai. YOU, my friend, are a messenger of God as far as I am concerned.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
That is not even close to being a definition.

Do you realize that you believe that life came from non-life?
Oh that’s right, Atheists have special definitions.

I come from my Heavenly Father. In him is life. The spark of life comes from life within God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Does God have free will?
No, God is perfect. He has perfect love and justice and all those things that make someone, or something perfect. And he made perfect humans except maybe one mistake, he gave them free will to do evil things, like lying, cheating, stealing, and killing... to be greedy and uncaring. Things God knew about, because he is all-knowing. But things he can't do, because they just aren't in his nature. But God didn't want people to be robots. He wanted them to be completely free to do as much good or bad as they wanted. Then another one of God's creations, Satan, was created perfect but then rebelled, becoming totally, irrevocably evil. God thought a good test for his human creations would be to have this evil being go tempt them.

Anyway, the moral of the story is... It's not God's fault people are so screwed up. They could have chosen to be good and do good.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I cannot say if Hindu's or others have that belief.
Hindu deities want just one thing from people - Fulfill your 'Dharma' (Do your duty). Beyond that they do not care whether you worship them or not, or whether you are a Hindu or not.
And he made perfect humans except maybe one mistake, he gave them free will to do evil things, like lying, cheating, stealing, and killing... to be greedy and uncaring.
Excellent example of God's 'perfection'.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Does any of this fit into any of the schools of Judaism? Because I often have asked Baha'is if Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses are considered to be anything more than ordinary men in Judaism.
"Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Christ, Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, and others whose names are lost to written history."
The list is open up to Bahaollah and then it closes. That means Mirza Ghulam Ahmad does not get in the list. Adam and Noah are not listed as manifestations. The list includes only those whom Bahais consider as 'founders of religions'.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
What the Baha'i faith promotes and brings is evidence, not proof. @Trailblazer repeatedly states this.
And is there evidence that the Baha'i Faith and their prophet are not true? For them to be true, then Jesus and Muhammad have to be manifestations of God and at least Jesus and Baha'u'llah have to be considered as being the Messiah to the Jews.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Another false claim. No, we are just demonstrating to others why their particular version of God does not exist. I could make just as bogus of a claim that you have to believe in the God that you have due to your own inherent immorality. I could not demand to others "Prove me wrong" I would have to support that claim. Just as you need to support yours with more than irrational arguments and handwaving.

But you don't know their version, you just conjure up a god and invoke it, without knowing what anyone else believes.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
And that's great.

Thankfully necromancy exists! God bless it.

You are willfully and intentionally distorting stories because you find it expedient, effectively putting forth a falsehood as if it represented truth.

I am willfully and intentionally interpreting stories and symbols so that they are meaningful to me as an individual largely divorced from the context they originated in, or I seek out patterns that connect in creative ways to modern mythology and context.

What is the falsehood in understanding the figure of Christ on the Cross as the Fruit from the Tree of Life and Death? What is the falsehood in seeing difficult cycles in my life and channeling Sisyphus? Where is the falsehood of seeing the Gnostic interpretation of Judas in Rowling's Severus Snape character and understanding that sometimes doing the right thing can lead to being stigmatized?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
But you don't know their version, you just conjure up a god and invoke it, without knowing what anyone else believes.
Have you been paying attention? That does not appear to be the case. All that was being discussed was on particular claimed aspect of the god of some people. Many try to claim that their God is omniscient and omnipotent, but it is still the fault of people if they do not follow his rules. It was pointed out that if a god, and this is any god, is omnipotent and omniscient then any wrong doing is ultimately the fault of that God. Your solution was to make your God not omniscient. That agreed with my claim. You had to make God not omniscient so that he could blame others.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
An atheist would not see evidence for God if it hit them in the face, and it is hitting them in the face and they STILL cannot see it.
Atheists rebel against the signs of God, which are Messengers of God. God cannot guide atheists and still honor free will.
Nothing has hit me on my face.
Atheists do not believe in existence of any God and therefore, a messenger/manifestation from God is a non-starter.
Who is asking any God to guide them? Not the atheists.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well, to be clear. I think the evidence that @Trailblazer wrote about in her post were messengers of God. Not manifestations.
When a Baha'i is talking about Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and the rest, it is the Baha'i belief that they are "manifestations" of God. Why she and other Baha'is use "messengers" I don't know.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What the Baha'i faith promotes and brings is evidence, not proof. @Trailblazer repeatedly states this.
Trailblazer brings some evidence which is dismissed by Atheists and followers of other religions as being absolutely flimsy.
Trailblazer accepts that existence of God and that they send messengers/manifestations can not ever be proved.
Meaning that you have to accept that on faith, and after your nose is cut, you will see the Emperor's new clothes.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
And is there evidence that the Baha'i Faith and their prophet are not true? For them to be true, then Jesus and Muhammad have to be manifestations of God and at least Jesus and Baha'u'llah have to be considered as being the Messiah to the Jews.

They dont have to be always true to be connecting to something which is beyond human capability. The challenge from a human perspective is realizing that the written word, by its nature is going to be bringing down something which is beyond human capability. If they didn't bring it down it would look like:

asjkfasdjasks f;sd;df;jnf;OASDIHSF Sdoido004bfnl lsdoduhf odfn !!!

So people need to be receptive to these things. They need to be capable and willing to as they say in Isalm, see the unseen. Not everyone can do it, and most people who do, *feel* it. That's what seeing the unseen means. Feeling is not something that is explainable. I can't give you a recipe for reading scripture. And this is why so many religious people say, "Just read it." And if a person is still not feeling it, they say, "read it again."

Naturally this is irritating for the person being told to read, and read again. But that's the way it is. Gratefully, there's a lot of different religions out there. So there's many different ways to participate in something holy if, IF, that's what a person wants. If they prefer to identify as worm food. They can do that too. It's a modern world, people can ID themselves as whatever they want. And I'm guessing their wish will be granted. Assuming they are good people.

I think the problem is, IF a person wants something holy, AND they were born into Christian community, AND, they, for whatever reason choose to pursue it intellectually.. maybe its because they are a hyper-literal realist and cannot feel things the way others do. Or for some reason they feel compelled to investigate Christianity academically, that automatically severes the emotional attachment at the heart od Christianity and the person almost inevitably loses faith. Then the person becomes angry and irritated. They want it, but they lost it, and they can't figure out how to get it back. So they compensate in several different ways.

After this, several things could happen, almost none of them are good. There's an anger that I think develops over lost time and broken promises. There's a distancing of friendships, and family members that could happen. The religion becomes the enemy. It's to blame for everything. Sometimes, I've heard people report that someone dies, and they literally expect Jesus to save them. Or one person told me that their loved one, literally wouldn't take medication, and died. And when the person dies, this triggers a lot resentment, and anger. And they feel foolish for ever believing. Again, it;s not their fault, religion caused all of it. A lot of things can happen to Christians. it's a beautiful religion, but... sadly, it can do some damage.

Then the person, the American partners up with others like them, they feel like politically things are very wrong. It's easy to blame those Christians. Those believers. They're the evil ones. And what's being produced is Christianity in reverse. It's still the same extreme good/bad demonization. Just flipped. And all the same preaching happens, and all the same demonization happens. And they're getting what they wanted from Christianity. Theyre getting that feeling back.

So, there's something specific going on with Christianity, that produces extremes. Extremes in a lot of areas. And the backlash is extreme too. But it's still the same religion for the ex-Chrisian Atheist. And they will not giv up that feeling again. They will cling and kick and scream ( virtually, not really ) against anything, anything that challenges their atheism. This prohibits giving a single inch the ANY of the messangers TB is talking about. Not even the beginning little inkling of a shred of a try.

All of these texts from the messengers that TB is talking about, they all kind of are bringing down something special. I personally attach to the jewish scripture. I really love it. Because of the way I love it, I can appreciate that other people can appreciate their scripture in that similar way too. But it's all a feeling, in my view. In Judaism there IS an intellectual side, but there's a very step learning curve. I understand there are other intellectual paths in Hinduism, but that's beyond me.

So, thats my understanding of what's happening with Bahai evidence for God. I think they make a good strong case for God. At the same time, I totally expect a good protion of people won't, as I say, feel it, from reading their scripture. And definitely the ex-Christian atheist. They need a void. Nothing will satisfy them. It's because their god is void. And that's what voids do. it's fine. until they go predator-mode on innocent religious people.
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Then are those Christians that take the Bible and the NT as literal as possible wrong?

I think "wrong" isn't the word I would use. "Limited," and perhaps "tenuous," since by fixing something into literal history it is vulnerable to rational criticism. In some ways, it is "dangerous," where believers may act out the belief that hurts them or others, such as exorcisms being done on mentally ill people. In a modern example, kids killing other kids to summon Slenderman is taking an urban legend literally in a lethal way.

Was Jesus born of a virgin and did he walk on water? Or are those also symbolic? For me, it's just religious myth. But I think it was written to be taken as if real and historical.

Even if it was written to be taken as historical (which I am not completely convinced it was), as myth we are free to interpret it if we choose in different ways. It is literature. We can read it, believe it literally, interpret symbolism, place it on various contexts...or not.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Nothing has hit me on my face.
Atheists do not believe in existence of any God and therefore, a messenger/manifestation from God is a non-starter.
As you know, I argue with Baha'i on how and why they chose Krishna to be the manifestation to represent Hinduism... And then leave off the previous incarnations. And then to act as if Krishna is believed by all Hindus... And then to deny that Krishna was an incarnation and that he taught about reincarnation.

To me, they are just inventing ways to include all religions into their belief about progressive revelation. But do they really accept all religions? Of course, they don't. The belief is that all of them become corrupted. Leaving only one true religion from the one true God... their religion and their concept of God.

As with this thread, Baha'is would not believe a "true" Christian would believe the Eden story literally. To them a "true" Christian would have believe the story to be symbolic and recognized their prophet as the return of Christ and joined the Baha'i Faith.

I think the best a religious person can say is that their religion is true to them and it works... for them. To others? Probably not so much.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
When a Baha'i is talking about Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and the rest, it is the Baha'i belief that they are "manifestations" of God. Why she and other Baha'is use "messengers" I don't know.
It is quite simple. Bahaollah was in Iran. Had he said that he was a messenger, he would have been immediately killed, as Muslims, Shia or Sunni, both believe that Muhammad is the last messenger. To escape such a fate Bahaollah devised a new label for himself, manifestation. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyya sect called himself a Mahdi. Different situations demand different handling.
 
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