How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Trailblazer]

I gave you an example.

You said:
The relaying of information is biased. Both of these describe the same situation:

@Trailblazer couldn't get to your wedding because she was home sick in bed.

@Trailblazer didn't go to your wedding because she took drugs the night before and slept through the ceremony.

I think we are talking past each other. When I referred to information I meant facts, not opinions.
Both of these describe the same situation, but only one is factually true. I was either sick in bed or I took drugs the night before and slept through the ceremony. People can have different opinions about what I did but that is not information.

information: facts provided or learned about something or someone.

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From any Baha'i who is enjoying their life as a Baha'i.

Very good observation. That's why I said "count me out."
What I'd like to see is some Baha'i zealots who are not enjoying themselves as that would actually mean something.

 

[CG Didymus]

Did she even imply that one would only talk to a Baha'i?

I try to find a quote from the Baha'i prophet, his son, his grandson or the UHJ. Then will be articles or commentaries on the subject by prominent Baha'is. Then there will be commentaries and criticisms from ex-Baha'is but also non-Baha'is, which includes all of us.

If we only go by what Baha'is tell us, then the message goes something like this...

There is a God. He has sent several messengers/manifestations that brought new teachings that would guide humanity in an ever-progressing civilization. However, the messages from these prophets all got distorted by the followers of the prophet. And in most cases, the message was written by the followers long after the prophet was gone.​

​

The Baha'i message, though, was written by the prophet himself. And although, he appeared to be just a man, he was actually part human, part divine, and could communicate directly with God. And we know this because he told us so.​

What else do we need to know? Except maybe... is any of it true? And who we going to ask about that?

 

[CG Didymus]

I would encourage you to ask my neighbors, and encourage you to ask my students . I read my "rate my professor " reviews, read criticisms and compliments - I know my view of myself is limited, and appreciate feedback from others to improve.

Our behavior does show our beliefs.

In our career center, for example, there are videotaped "mock interviews". Without seeing yourself on camera, it's difficult to realize posture, face expressions, nervous ticks and ums. You cannot see yourself. A more realistic understanding of yourself often comes from criticism.

And some of us here have criticisms about religions, like the Baha'i Faith and Christianity. Does it help?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I try to find a quote from the Baha'i prophet, his son, his grandson or the UHJ. Then will be articles or commentaries on the subject by prominent Baha'is. Then there will be commentaries and criticisms from ex-Baha'is but also non-Baha'is, which includes all of us.

If we only go by what Baha'is tell us, then the message goes something like this...

There is a God. He has sent several messengers/manifestations that brought new teachings that would guide humanity in an ever-progressing civilization. However, the messages from these prophets all got distorted by the followers of the prophet. And in most cases, the message was written by the followers long after the prophet was gone.​

​

The Baha'i message, though, was written by the prophet himself. And although, he appeared to be just a man, he was actually part human, part divine, and could communicate directly with God. And we know this because he told us so.​

What else do we need to know? Except maybe... is any of it true? And who we going to ask about that?

We can ask believers how they know it is true. I know that will be highly biased, but the arguments that they give will tell us a lot about them,

That usually does not work out well for the Baha' beleif.

 

[CG Didymus]

No spaghetti? No meatballs? How about the stripper factories?

"Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. "

Yes, there is doubt. No, I haven't seen God come down with power and sovereignty. Yes, there is doubt about his signs. And what is this "clear" evidence?

Which religion doesn't make those kinds of promises? And, of course, the believers take them as being absolutely true.

Oh, but is there going to be strippers? Or is it a factory that makes strippers?

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. "

Yes, there is doubt. No, I haven't seen God come down with power and sovereignty. Yes, there is doubt about his signs. And what is this "clear" evidence?

Which religion doesn't make those kinds of promises? And, of course, the believers take them as being absolutely true.

Oh, but is there going to be strippers? Or is it a factory that makes strippers?

Strippers and beer volcanoes.

 

[ppp]

I think we are talking past each other. When I referred to information I meant facts, not opinions

Both of the examples I gave only relayed facts
Not opinions.

.Both of these describe the same situation, but only one is factually true. I was either sick in bed or I took drugs the night before and slept through the ceremony.

That is incorrect.

The Statments:
@Trailblazer couldn't get to your wedding because she was home sick in bed.
@Trailblazer didn't go to your wedding because she took drugs the night before and slept through the ceremony.

The events:

• You came down sick after dinner with the flu. You took Nyquil. You slept thru the ceremony because of the effects of both.
• You did heroin last night, had a bad reaction and in sleeping off the side effects, you slept thru the ceremony.
• You dropped some LSD, had an great trip followed by agood night's sleep, woke up at six am, ate some bad eggs, spent the morning throwing up, then fell asleep from exhastion and dehydration. And that is why you slept thru the ceremony.

Both of my statements above factually represent each of those bulleted possibilities:. Yet both statement convey a bias. In the first I am using words that will make my audience sympathetic. In the second, I am eliciting derision. Bias delivered purely thru information.

 

[CG Didymus]

In which case one is only getting biased information from its proponents.

Even if we're talking about the "fact" that their prophet said something, when we do as Baha'is say to do, and investigate what their prophet said for ourselves, some of don't find it to be factual.

For instance, I've asked Baha'is why they reject the resurrection of Jesus but believe in his virgin birth? I investigated the supposed prophecy that is used in the gospel of Matthew and found it is only one verse in Isaiah... chapter seven verse fourteen. To me, that's something that the gospel writer could have easily made up. He wasn't there and only one other gospel writer mentions the birth of Jesus. All of them talk about the resurrection.

So, one cherry-picked verse from Isaiah, that establishes the virgin birth as fact? And then the Baha'is support it as being a fact? Sorry, Christians and Baha'is, I doubt it. And for me, that makes both your religions as being probable man-made fabrications. But I'm still listening and questioning and evaluating the "facts".

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, even one congregation to another, one member from another, one week someone thinks this, next week perhaps their view has changed.

We're herd animals, we need groups - but the best groups allow - embrace - criticism and change. By the people (not by pope, king, pro$$it), listen to all the people, let people guide it - admit it's not all-knowing, not all-petfect, not fact, not "true".

When I hear anyone say "This is the truth! This is fact!", it sounds quite insecure, close minded, prideful - the opposite of education and learning (which is my big thing)

But what do we hear from believers? "I know it is true." At least TB walks it back and says that she "believes it is true". Which only helps a little, because it kind of sounds like she is saying she does "knows" it is true. And how does she know? Because of the evidence.

But then again, how is that different then say a Fundy Christian that "knows" Jesus is God. And "knows" the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? And knows he is coming soon? Yeah, yeah... we know that is what they believe. And we know they have what they believe to be evidence. Yet, the beliefs and evidence of Baha'is and Fundy Christians contradicts each other.

 

[CG Didymus]

To apply this to the Baha'i, if I were trying to understand their beliefs, I would ask a cross-section of Baha'is first. Then I would take into account outsider perspectives, and place the whole thing in context. That's why I think ethnography is the best way to understand groups of people--it's rich, it's detailed, it's contextualized.

I don't agree with Fundy Christian or Baha'i beliefs, but I do believe that those that follow the teachings of either religion can become better people than what they were without the religion. But I also believe that of Mormons and Ahmadiyya, and Atheist Hindus, and even Scientologists. But are the beliefs true?

And does it matter if it gets the people to do good? With some religions I think it does, because they do impose their beliefs and morality on others. Christian have done it and are still doing it. And I think Baha'is will also. But some of them say they won't.

 

[CG Didymus]

We can ask believers how they know it is true. I know that will be highly biased, but the arguments that they give will tell us a lot about them,

That usually does not work out well for the Baha' beleif.

Yeah, it is pretty much just some kind of version of, "Our Scriptures and/or religion says so." And then the evidence is, "Our prophet, his mission, his character, his writings." I think it's been two years now of hearing that.

 

[CG Didymus]

Strippers and beer volcanoes.

Promise? And how can I know you're not just making this up? I know, because you're a truthful person and would not lie. Okay, then I believe.

 

[lukethethird]

No, what you will get is biased information from its detractors. The facts about the Baha'i Faith are the facts and Baha'is are the ones who best know those facts, especially Baha'is who have been Baha'is for 40 or 50 years.

Opinions are another matter. You can get opinions from anyone, but opinions are only opinions and they have nothing to do with facts.
You can listen carefully to peoples' opinions, but that will never inform you of the facts. I started with the facts and then I formed my own opinion and that is what we are enjoined to do before we join the Baha'i Faith. It is called 'independent investigation of truth.' Since we are all responsible for our own beliefs we all have to make up our own minds.

Where does gullibility come into this?

 

[lukethethird]

I don't agree with Fundy Christian or Baha'i beliefs, but I do believe that those that follow the teachings of either religion can become better people than what they were without the religion. But I also believe that of Mormons and Ahmadiyya, and Atheist Hindus, and even Scientologists. But are the beliefs true?

And does it matter if it gets the people to do good? With some religions I think it does, because they do impose their beliefs and morality on others. Christian have done it and are still doing it. And I think Baha'is will also. But some of them say they won't.

People go to church to be better people, but once there they are sold a bill of goods.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Promise? And how can I know you're not just making this up? I know, because you're a truthful person and would not lie. Okay, then I believe.

I can prove that I am not the one making this up. Serious, is this my voice?

 

[Trailblazer]

Where does gullibility come into this?

Nowhere.

 

[lukethethird]

Nowhere.

We all can be gullible, but not when it comes to Bahai, is that right?

 

[idea]

The relaying of information is biased. Both of these describe the same situation:

@Trailblazer couldn't get to your wedding because she was home sick in bed.

@Trailblazer didn't go to your wedding because she took drugs the night before and slept through the ceremony.

Asking Baha'i about their religion yields the positive slant.

Haha, great example of twist without lie. They say "milk before meat", when you can handle the *truth* ... then you can recieve it

At least in the NT, Judas was shown to be an apostle, Jonah ran away, even God showed his evil side with poor Job was it?

It's more believable, and they'd get more converts if the message included warts and all. If they were to say - Yes, we admit one of our top 12 leaders was the one who killed Jesus, we can't walk on water, we can't heal everyone - here's the good, here's the bad, not gonna hide anything, in sickness and in health here's the authentic group. - at least I'm very attracted to those who openly admit mistakes, are authentic.

@Trailblazer didn't go to your wedding because your new husband is my old abusive ex - self medication is better than suicide, so I drank a little after trying to warn you....

From lazy, to druggie, to not-so-perfect but with good intentions ...

The real meat in any group, any person - there's no depth without hearing the good and the bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all can be gullible, but not when it comes to Bahai, is that right?

Baha'is can be gullible just like everyone else but that is not what we were talking about.
We were talking about the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith, not personal opinions.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

The statement above is a way to control information, claiming only one group's view is "accurate".

Only ask a practicing Nazi if you want to understand Nazis? Don't talk to Jews, don't talk to anyone who doesn't practice it??!!??

Only ask a cattle rancher if you want to understand the meat industry? Don't talk to vegetarians about the meat industry - no "accurate" information there??

Plug in any group, and any other group who opposes them - to get the full picture, have listen carefully to everyone.

If you want to know about the nuance of the inner workings of something, it is often best to go to the source. To quote the movie Tommy Boy starring Chris Farley and his character Tommy Callahan Jr., "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ***, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."

Don't ask a cattle rancher about the meat industry, he'll only be able to tell you how he gets shafted. Ask him how to run or ranch cattle, he'll know better than a butcher.

The Jews most definitely know a thing or two about the Nazis and their wickedness, but they couldn't tell you firsthand how it is like to be swept up in hatred or the military industrial complex of Hitler. Shameful stain on our history, we must not forget.