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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The trump show is over!
Despair not. The best is yet to come! Trump is in the grand jury playoffs now. The first round is against Letitia James. The loser of that (he's already lost the NY civil trial) progresses to the next trial to see if he can lose again (Georgia). And Again (Jack Smith I: the classified docs). And again (Smith II: the insurrection) and again (E Jean Caroll II). There are two more indictments looming for Trump: Smith III: campaign fraud, and they're investigating Trump in AZ now for felony election interference, so we should expect a fifth or sixth criminal indictment by then. This should take us through and beyond Trump's first post-guilty incarceration (although the smart money has him in prison before that for defying gag orders).
As new scientific evidence is disclosed it allows Christians to narrow in their interpretations of what the Bible actually meant.
That should tell you something about the relative value of the Bible and of science. One is the authority on what really happened, the other pretending it knew that all along by reinterpreting scripture ad hoc.
I’ve no idea why you think science is in any way in conflict with the Bible, it isn’t.
Really? The Bible says a god created the universe including the kinds and the first two humans (who were made in that god's image) in six days, took a day to rest, and eventually flooded the earth and drowned almost all terrestrial life. None of that happened.
They aren’t myths they are incomplete records of events that occurred and science helps to fill in the gaps
They are myths, and they are records only of the imagination of the Bible writers trying to explain their world under the assumption that it was built and is ruled by a tri-omni god. Science isn't filling in any gaps. Science has explained what really happened, and the apologists scramble to minimize the apparent contradiction and error with comments like yours.
You obviously don’t like God so there is really no point discussing this with you when you have a closed mind.
Those rejecting god claims and other unfalsifiable faith-based beliefs aren't closed-minded. This is what closed-mindedness looks like with one open-minded humanist's opinion for contrast (Bill Nye):

[1] The moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

[2] "The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..." - William Lane Craig

[3] “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

[4] “When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data. The only Bible-honoring conclusion is, of course, that Genesis 1-11 is actual historical truth, regardless of any scientific or chronological problems thereby entailed.” –creationist Henry Morris

What all of these people except Nye are telling you is that there minds are closed for business, and that nothing you could show them could reveal to them where they're wrong. Nye rejects such thinking, and embraces evidence, which he considers open-mindedly.
Because many can have intelligent debates on the subject but some are so closed minded it’s pointless
Yes. I just showed you several examples. But don't confuse your beliefs being rejected for closed-mindedness. You just don't have compelling arguments.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
(...) don't confuse your beliefs being rejected for closed-mindedness. You just don't have compelling arguments.
Thinking that something didn't occur when somebody tells you he saw it, just because you've never seen or heard something similar before is a closed-minded way of think.

Many things are happening in the world right now and you don't have the slightest notion about them.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thinking that something didn't occur when somebody tells you he saw it, just because you've never seen or heard something similar before is a closed-minded way of think.
Rejecting an insufficiently evidenced claim is not closed-mindedness. It's critical thinking, which is the definition of open-mindedness. What open-mindedness refers to is the willingness to consider ideas. Critical thought is the skill set that allows one to derive sound inferences from evidence, and to recognize them when others make them, as well as the willingness to change one's mind in the presence of a sound, compelling argument.

Here are one example each of open- and closed-mindedness. Nye's mind is open to whatever evidence Ham might present, but Ham is proud that his is closed. You may know that the moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked them, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

And here is more faith-based closed-mindedness, and proud of it, too! They consider this kind of thinking virtuous:
  • "The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..." - William Lane Craig
  • “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa
  • “When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data. The only Bible-honoring conclusion is, of course, that Genesis 1-11 is actual historical truth, regardless of any scientific or chronological problems thereby entailed.” – creationist Henry Morris
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
You can not always show "evidence" about things that happened in the past. You need to trust people sometimes. Bible writers were real persons, like you and me ...if your are not a bot, of course.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You can not always show "evidence" about things that happened in the past.
Then that means you don't have good enough evidence to reasonably believe it happened.
You need to trust people sometimes. Bible writers were real persons, like you and me ...if your are not a bot, of course.
No. Especially when the claims are fantastical in nature.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Finally got one right. Keep on keeping it
clear and simple. Try small goals. You
are not ready to be smartrrvtha every scientist
on earth. Or than me.
I believe if I want to talk to someone smart I talk to my daughter who was in the top 3% in the nation. However she has a tendency to be intelligently wrong about many things. As for smarter than people on RF, I have no desire or need. My only requirement is that people be rational since that is my strength.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Oddly he did not like the Cash For Clunkers program of Obama. A program that was designed to help the US auto industry and the environment at the same time. It was part of the overall bailout of Detroit.
I believe that is because I am not wealthy enough to buy a new car every year and I need used cars to be reasonably priced. I also come from a Yankee background whose motto is: Use it up, wear it out and make it do. This throwaway generation drives me nuts.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I believe if I want to talk to someone smart I talk to my daughter who was in the top 3% in the nation. However she has a tendency to be intelligently wrong about many things. As for smarter than people on RF, I have no desire or need. My only requirement is that people be rational since that is my strength.
I hope you are kidding about rationality
being #1 for you.

Your claim to knowing more than
any scientist on earth is kinda
insensible. Definitely has zero
evidence.

Some uncharitble folks might even
call it irrational.

What do you call it?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe that is because I am not wealthy enough to buy a new car every year and I need used cars to be reasonably priced. I also come from a Yankee background whose motto is: Use it up, wear it out and make it do. This throwaway generation drives me nuts.
Then your approach was far too shallow. Do you realize that global warming is a real and very serious problem? Do you not remember that the US car industry was in grave danger?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I hope you are kidding about rationality
being #1 for you.

Your claim to knowing more than
any scientist on earth is kinda
insensible. Definitely has zero
evidence.

Some uncharitble folks might even
call it irrational.

What do you call it?
I believe I call it knowing God who knows all things. Scientists can't claim that.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Then your approach was far too shallow. Do you realize that global warming is a real and very serious problem? Do you not remember that the US car industry was in grave danger?
I believe global warming is real. Solutions are not. They won't work any better than the attempt to alter hurricanes.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe global warming is real. Solutions are not. They won't work any better than the attempt to alter hurricanes.
Are you kidding me? Are you trying to say that cutting down on CO2 produced by man will not help? You are now in deep denial of reality if you claim that. We know that man has almost doubled the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. We know that CO2 acts as a blanket. Throw another blanket on in the winter and you will get warmer. Sleeping underneath a pile of blankets in the summer can kill a person.

Now it is valid to ask "How do they know that?" It is not valid for a person that does not even understand the basics of science an that refuses to learn to object to changes that are made to fight AGW. If you want to have a valid opinion you need to educate yourself.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe I call it knowing God who knows all things. Scientists can't claim that.
Sure they can, but they don't. Why? They deal in facts. They study reality while Abrahamists pontificate about nothing.
I believe global warming is real. Solutions are not.
That's your Christian nihilism speaking - such a pessimistic view for man and nature. Here's some more of that from your fellow Christians who think like you, and are a huge part of the problem, since, unfortunately, they have crept into government:
  • "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities)
  • "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
  • "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.
Did you know that Reagan removed the solar panels Carter put up on the White House?
 
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