How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[We Never Know]

Okay. Explain why that matters. I will remind you that my position does not hinge on whether there was a choice. My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not.

"My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not."

Elaborate more.

One can choose to get regular sleep. That's having choice.

One cannot choose to never sleep. That's not having choice.

 

[ppp]

It matters because if you made a choice that means you have free will to choose, but if you were God's puppet you are not free.

As I keep explaining, that is irrelevant to what I am saying. You are trying to address an arguement that I am not making.. Ah well.

 

[ppp]

"My position hinges on whether there is a difference in result where one had a choice vs where one does not."

Elaborate more.

One can choose to get regular sleep. That's having choice.

One cannot choose to never sleep. That's not having choice.

I dont know what you want me to eaborate on, I am not talking about having choice I am saying that there is no funcional difference in the result of having choice or not having choice in a universe with an omni god.

 

[Trailblazer]

I dont know what you want me to eaborate on, I am not talking about having choice I am saying that there is no funcional difference in the result of having choice or not having choice in a universe with an omni god.

I think I understand what you are saying now.

 

[We Never Know]

I dont know what you want me to eaborate on, I am not talking about having choice I am saying that there is no funcional difference in the result of having choice or not having choice in a universe with an omni god.

Are you saying there is no difference in a omni god making you choose vs letting you choose?

 

[ppp]

I think I understand what you are saying now.

Are you saying there is no difference in a omni god making you choose vs letting you choose?

Given an omni god, I am saying there is no difference in result where I am put in the world with free will vs my being put in the world as a hand puppet.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I am not claiming that God is not omnipotent and omniscient.
It is not one or the other. This all boils down to what we 'believe' it means for God to be omnipotent and omniscient.
You believe differently than I do.

But you are. Perhaps you do not know the meaning of those words, or their implication.

What do you think that omniscient means?

What do you think that omnipotent means?

 

[We Never Know]

Given an omni god, I am saying there is no difference in result where I am put in the world with free will vs my being put in the world as a hand puppet.

So if a god knows what you will choose, even though you have several different choices, its not free will?

If that is what you are saying, I disagree. The god may know what you will choose but it isn't making you choose a certain choice.

 

[dybmh]

and you'll have a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCEwhich predates the Bible and Christianity (see here)

There is a debate as to when the various elements were added to the Attis myth and ritual. Contrary to the current fad of dismissing all correspondences between Christianity and Paganism, the fact that Attis was at some point a “dying and rising god” is concluded by Dr. Tryggve Mettinger, a professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of Lund and author of The Riddle of the Resurrection, who relates: “Since the time of Damascius (6th cent. ad/ce), Attis seems to have been believed to die and return.”​

The claim was 1250BCE. But it's actually 600CE. Well, that's only an 1800 year difference. 400ish years after the gospels. But who cares about accuracy, right? Sheesh.

 

[ppp]

So if a god knows what you will choose, even though you have several different choices, its not free will?

As I have said in this thread over and over and over...whether or not I have free will does not matter to the result of God placing me in this world..

 

[We Never Know]

As I have said in this thread over and over and over...whether or not I have free will does not matter to the result of God placing me in this world..

I agree. Making choices by free will is basically common sense, no god needed.
The stove is hot..do I touch it or not. Common sense will make your choice.
Sadly common sense isn't very common any more lol

 

[dybmh]

Jesus dying for our sins is known as a scapegoat religion. If you want to know where the term scapegoat comes from do a search, it predates Christianity.

So you're telling us that they got the idea from the bible? What an amazing informative revelation. ~sarcasm~

 

[Aupmanyav]

Um... yes, if you are a Christian, then redemption is necessary. It's not enough to be good, sin must also be accounted for.

In case of Hinduism, heaven is guaranteed for all good people, even if they are not Hindus. Even Gods cannot deprive them of their right.
For those who may have sinned, compensate to the maximum extent one can and do not repeat. Again, no Gods necessary.

 

[lukethethird]

Hmm... No, I don't think that the literal story of Adam and Eve is part of a necessary minimal requirement to be Christian.
Assuming, of course that by "True Christian" you mean one who is sincere in belief. The capacity to recall and recount word for word the Biblical story... in Hebrew, of course, while being a commendable achievement is not the essence of being Christian for the common (honest) person, even assuming that the events of Genesis are a necessary prequisite to the events of the New Testament.
While the story of Adam and Eve may explain the fall of man, it is not necessary to be a learned scholar in order to be redeemed.

True, I doubt that a lot of Christians are aware that Christianity is merely an answer to a problem created by Judaism. In fact all the different Christian sects are breakaways from problems created by previous churches.

 

[dybmh]

Lets assume that your god exists, and that I just stole candy from a baby.

There are two scenarios:
1. God knows that I will freely choose to do so, and puts me into this world.
2. God knows whats I will do like a puppet, and puts me in this world.

Either way God's intent was to have me be here so that I would steal that candy. If I do it of my own free will, that is functionally the same as if I were a puppet.

OH! You're assuming there's only one world and only one version of you. There's no reason to assume that.

 

[Colt]

For those of you who don't take the story of the Fall literally. Adam, Eve, Tree, Serpent, etc, how do you envision the Fall of Man happening? And if it didn't happen, what use is Jesus?

Man was never even “up” to fall from any hight!?

Considering the chronology of the fragmented story, the real question should be, when did the “Crafty Beast” or Satan fall into sin and rebellion? He was evil when he approached Eve who sinned before Adam!

It was actually through “one fallen celestial being that sin entered the world”. Eve sinned before Adam.

When Pauls atonement doctrine and basic Christian theology was being constructed as an explanation for the cross, they devised an “original sin” theory to account Jesus coming to earth to be a scape-man, blemish free offering substitute!

 

[We Never Know]

Man was never even “up” to fall from any hight!?

Considering the chronology of the fragmented story, the real question should be, when did the “Crafty Beast” or Satan fall into sin and rebellion? He was evil when he approached Eve who sinned before Adam!

It was actually through “one fallen celestial being that sin entered the world”. Eve sinned before Adam.

When Pauls atonement doctrine and basic Christian theology was being constructed as an explanation for the cross, they devised an “original sin” theory to account Jesus coming to earth to be a scape-man, blemish free offering substitute!

"Eve sinned before Adam"

That's blaming women for mans troubles

Yet women blame men for their troubles.

lol

 

[Colt]

"Eve sinned before Adam"

That's blaming women for mans troubles

Yet women blame men for their troubles.

lol

But we couldn’t even give Eve the credit in Christian theology! LoL! The common saying being “through ONE MAN sin entered the world!

At times when listening to a Christian sermon I just want to get up and interrupt the preacher because their story has a lot of holes in it!

 

[Trailblazer]

But you are. Perhaps you do not know the meaning of those words, or their implication.

What do you think that omniscient means?

What do you think that omnipotent means?

I know the meaning of the words.

Omniscient means All-Knowing.
Omnipotent means All-Powerful.

There are many implications, depending upon what we are talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know the meaning of the words.

Omniscient means All-Knowing.
Omnipotent means All-Powerful.

There are many implications, depending upon what we are talking about.

So if God is all knowing that means that he knows exactly what is going to happen. Otherwise there would be things that he did not know. Right?