How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[lukethethird]

Baha'is can be gullible just like everyone else but that is not what we were talking about.
We were talking about the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith, not personal opinions.

Faith is not necessary when we have facts, something smells fishy.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where does gullibility come into this?

Facts, or at least told as if facts to me by Baha'is in 1970...

Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. All the founders of all the major religion are all one and were sent by God. Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all of the prophecies from all the major religions about the return of an end-time prophet. He is the promised Comforter talked about by Jesus.

I hadn't read the NT or the Bible, so I took them at their word. In Baha'i writings, all those claims were verified as being things taught as true by the Baha'i Faith. I was around Baha'is for three years when a friend became a Christian.

Christianity was huge then. It was the middle of the "Jesus Freak" movement. I was in San Diego, and north of there, in Costa Mesa was Calvary Chapel. Every Saturday night they held a Christian rock concert. There were about 2000 young people there. Most of the guys had long hair and some had beards. All had smiles and a glow of something deep and spiritual.

My friend took me there and to local Bible studies. I learned the "truth" and the "facts" about what the Bible really taught.

Jesus came and died for sinners. Jesus is the only way for anyone to get to heaven. Without accepting his sacrifice, no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own merits. All of these things were verified by things said in the NT and the Bible. Oh, and the "Comforter"? Was not Baha'u'llah. It was the Holy Spirit. And Baha'is taught that the resurrection of Jesus was not a literal but was symbolic. In the NT, it was clearly a fact. Jesus was killed and then three days later rose again. He appeared to the disciples and ate with them, and they touched him, and he said, (paraphrased) "You see. I have flesh and bone. I am not a ghost. The Christians weren't lying. The "facts" were all there in the Bible and the NT and I believed them.

Three years later, after trying to believe, and being spiritually gullible enough to believe both the Baha'is and the Christians, I left Christianity. Now fifty years later, thanks to forums on the internet, I'm in a place where I can talk about religions and openly ask them questions that I couldn't ask back then. I'm no longer spiritually gullible. After experiencing religion, I have become spiritually skeptical.

But I will say again, both religions, when followed and believed, seemed to be true. For me, once doubts crept in? Neither seemed true.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can prove that I am not the one making this up. Serious, is this my voice?

It is true! And there's a guarantee? How can I pass up an offer like that?

And they actually had a picture of FSM. Unlike other religions that only have an invisible God. How can people know that invisible God is real if people can't see him? Oops, I keep forgetting... the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Faith is not necessary when we have facts, something smells fishy.

There is nothing fishy about it.
Faith is necessary in order to 'believe' that the facts 'mean' that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, since that can never be proven as a fact.

 

[idea]

I never said it is proof or validity that the religion is true.
However, facts are facts and there are facts about the Baha'i Faith that are true.
Whether one believes those facts indicate that the religion is true (i.e., that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God) is a matter of opinion. That is not a fact since it can never be proven true.

Let me ask a question, not directed to Baha'i, or Christian or Buddhist or Athiest

The question: What's the point of having any belief in anything?

I used to think it would bring peace, security, community, Meaning, Purpose - I was in a different faith, but I think the end goal is the same for most.

For me, no more apologetics, no more hours studying this old book or listening to that old preacher. My peace comes from acceptance of the good and the bad. I've given up grasping for security. Purpose - simple, help people as much as I can - get community that way too.

It's the simple things that matter.
Not about Eden, or literalism - did the flood happen? Trinity or 3 separate beings? Savior or prophet or story? None of it matters. Wasted time.

Better to spend time volunteering. Cleaning. Hiking. Watching sunsets. Listening to good music, cooking good food.

Either
a) God is good to all (will not condemn anyone based on what country, time, beliefs they were born into)
b) God isn't good to all (God is to be avoided, not worshipped)
c) God doesn't exist.

The present - to really be present in the here and now. What do you do on your time off? Paint? Sing? Write poetry? Would a loving God want anyone fighting, want any group thinking they were the only true group, choose only a few? Is that just? Loving? If a) no one has to worry about finding "truth". Let's hope it's not b), as for c), there's worth in scarcity, precious time, memories live on.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me ask a question, not directed to Baha'u, or Christian or Buddhist or Athiest

The question: What's the point of having any belief in anything?

The short answer is that our beliefs that drive our values and thus our behaviors. Beliefs also help us to develop our good characteristics and overcome our bad ones.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)

Lights of Guidance (second part):A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[idea]

The short answer is that our beliefs that drive our values and thus our behaviors. Beliefs also help us to develop our good characteristics and overcome our bad ones.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)

Lights of Guidance (second part):A Bahá'í Reference File

I see the same behaviors within those from many different beliefs - most love family, most value honesty, different beliefs, same behaviors, so behaviors do not come from religious beliefs.

I've seen strength in those from different belief systems.

It doesn't matter what religious group you are a part of - the same good and evil, love and hate, joy and sorrow, strength and weakness - all of it is within all religious groups. Within all groups - political, etc. It's human nature. It's not from church, it's human nature.

There's more love, peace, joy - more if all the good stuff when beliefs do not hold any one group above another.

 

[lukethethird]

There is nothing fishy about it.
Faith is necessary in order to 'believe' that the facts 'mean' that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, since that can never be proven as a fact.

Nonsense, when facts are available, faith is not necessary. There are no facts whatsoever that give any indication that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Your beliefs are entirely faith based.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nonsense, when facts are available, faith is not necessary. There are no facts whatsoever that give any indication that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Your beliefs are entirely faith based.

Yes, like I believe that it is a fact that the NT says that Jesus rose from the dead. But does that mean it is a fact that it really happened? No. So, it takes trust or faith that the gospels are telling the truth.

Then for those that believe, it is a fact to them. They know it is true... because they believe the gospels are true. And they know the gospels are true because? Because the people declared the gospels to be the Word of God? And they know God is real and cannot lie, because the rest of the Word of God, the Bible, says so?

I was there. I tried it. And I knew it in my heart, but my brain was having trouble believing it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense, when facts are available, faith is not necessary. There are no facts whatsoever that give any indication that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Your beliefs are entirely faith based.

Apparently you have not been listening to what I have been saying.
There are no facts that prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God since nothing can ever prove such a claim.
However, there are facts that indicate that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

My beliefs are evidence and faith based, since the facts are evidence, and they indicate that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

 

[lukethethird]

Apparently you have not been listening to what I have been saying.
There are no facts that prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God since nothing can ever prove such a claim.
However, there are facts that indicate that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

My beliefs are evidence and faith based, since the facts are evidence, since they indicate that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

You offer nothing but opinion and faith while using terms like evidence and facts as if you're fooling anyone other than yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

You offer nothing but opinion and faith while using terms like evidence and facts as if you're fooling anyone other than yourself.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

The atheists here STILL don't understand because they cannot think logically.

It is not evidence that indicates to you that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes you to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but it is evidence that indicates to Baha'is that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes Baha'is to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

So when atheists say "that's not evidence" all that means is that it is not evidence to you.

 

[lukethethird]

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

The atheists here STILL don't understand because they cannot think logically.

It is not evidence that indicates to you that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes you to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but it is evidence that indicates to Baha'is that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes Baha'is to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

So when atheists say "that's not evidence" all that means is that it is not evidence to you.

Then it is not evidence, it's opinion, and it's all you've got.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense, when facts are available, faith is not necessary.

There are no facts about God and that is why faith will always be necessary to believe in God...
See how easy that was?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

The atheists here STILL don't understand because they cannot think logically.

It is not evidence that indicates to you that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes you to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, but it is evidence that indicates to Baha'is that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and it is not evidence that causes Baha'is to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

So when atheists say "that's not evidence" all that means is that it is not evidence to you.

None of your evidence is objective evidence. You did not understand the definition that you used.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then it is not evidence, it's opinion, and that's all you've got.

It is an opinion about the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith, which constitutes evidence for people who hold that opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are no facts about God and that is why faith will always be necessary to believe in God...
See how easy that was?

That is better. Don't make claims about having evidence when you do not have any. Religions are faith based. If something speaks to you deep inside that is faith. Not evidence. You actually imply that you have a weak faith when you try to find evidence that is not there.

 

[Trailblazer]

None of your evidence is objective evidence. You did not understand the definition that you used.

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

What is subjective and objective evidence?

Subjective evidence is evidence that we cannot evaluate. In fact, we have two choices; to accept what somebody says or reject it. ... Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.
Objective evidence - definition and meaning - Market ...

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for Baha'u'llah for ourselves because there are actual facts surrounding the Person, the Life, and the Mission of Baha'u'llah, thus it is objective evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is better. Don't make claims about having evidence when you do not have any. Religions are faith based. If something speaks to you deep inside that is faith. Not evidence. You actually imply that you have a weak faith when you try to find evidence that is not there.

Religions are faith based but there is evidence that supports the faith.
It would be great of atheists could understand the meaning of evidence. Evidence does not prove, it only indicates *to some people* that a belief is true.

 

[lukethethird]

Religions are faith based but there is evidence that supports the faith.
It would be great of atheists could understand the meaning of evidence. Evidence does not prove, it only indicates *to some people* that a belief is true.

It would be great if you took it to a thread that is not about Christianity.