How can you believe in God? And of the suffering earth.

[Jayhawker Soule]

The OT and the NT are man's blogs as he tries to figure who this God guy is.

That was rather good, Pete!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Jay,

I think that YOU were the one who helped me understand that. Really, really. So thanks!

 

[constantine]

I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world? I know it’s all down to humans actions etc. but if your God is all loving then why don’t he stop it? If he sacrificed his own son for our sins don’t you agree it’s had no affect on people whatsoever? And how can he sacrifice his only son anyway how could he let him go through so much pain and torment? That is just plain cruel if you ask me.


And another thing how can humans be so stupid? We brought all this suffering, hatred and pain to ourselves. We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth. Do we really value greed for land and oil over life? Some religious faiths talk of giving love to all etc. but never practice it themselves.

Put your hand up if you really believe in unconditional love and not just saying that because you feel it’s the right thing to say. Put your hand up if you send your love to everyone who suffers to everyone on this earth. Because I know I bloody well do.

l dont believe theres suffering on this earth. l dont believe in man made gods.

 

[The Seeker]

Why would God waste effort in building another paradise so far from home?

Why would God waste effort putting on Earth to suffer when he has the power to put us in Heaven?

 

[Grian]

There can be no goodness without "badness". I believe in the whole balance concept. We would have no idea what light was if there was no darkness. Everything that happens in this world has a purpose. It is a true test of faith to try to figure out what those purposes are without losing your mind.

 

[morning-star]

l dont believe theres suffering on this earth. l dont believe in man made gods.

look around you theres there is suffering! theres wars, people starving in third world countrys, people who murder, rape and pillage even in your very town! and the list goes on and thats just the stuff caused by mankind.

 

[morning-star]

There can be no goodness without "badness". I believe in the whole balance concept. We would have no idea what light was if there was no darkness. Everything that happens in this world has a purpose. It is a true test of faith to try to figure out what those purposes are without losing your mind.

*nods in agreement* everyone finds there own path sooner or later.

 

[Doodlebug02]

Before the fall of Adam and Eve, there was no suffering on the earth. Because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, suffering came into the earth. That is how I can believe in a God that allows suffering. Catholicism also has a reason for suffering. We can offer it up to be in union with Christ's suffering.

 

[Super Universe]

Why would God waste effort putting on Earth to suffer when he has the power to put us in Heaven?

What would you do in heaven? What can you do? Not really anything.

You don't speak the universal language so you can't communicate with the other very wise beings who have ascended from the material dimension all the way to heaven.

You don't understand how the universe maintains a balance of energy and matter. You don't understand the hierarchy of ascended beings that do God's work in the universe with the help of angels.

You don't understand the soul energy and it's need to attach to biologics to gain experience and personality. You don't understand the myriad beings that populate the universe and choose sides in the great battle of those in service to self and those in service to others. You don't understand the true size and arrangement of the material universe or the eleven dimensions and non-space/time.

You don't understand the nature of the relationship between DNA/RNA and spirit. You don't know what composes spirit energy. You don't completely understand the physical laws that control the multi-verse. You don't understand how the sun or the earth really work.

You think heaven is your reward for going to church but you can't get to heaven unless you know HOW to get there. It doesn't happen automatically, you have to find it.

 

[sojourner]

I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world? I know it’s all down to humans actions etc. but if your God is all loving then why don’t he stop it? If he sacrificed his own son for our sins don’t you agree it’s had no affect on people whatsoever? And how can he sacrifice his only son anyway how could he let him go through so much pain and torment? That is just plain cruel if you ask me.


And another thing how can humans be so stupid? We brought all this suffering, hatred and pain to ourselves. We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth. Do we really value greed for land and oil over life? Some religious faiths talk of giving love to all etc. but never practice it themselves.

Put your hand up if you really believe in unconditional love and not just saying that because you feel it’s the right thing to say. Put your hand up if you send your love to everyone who suffers to everyone on this earth. Because I know I bloody well do.

Faith is not based upon the absence of suffering, but upon the steadfastness of grace. God's purpose is not to "eradicate suffering," but to bring God's whole creation to wholeness, which God does through grace.

Suffering is part of what it means to be human. If we did not suffer, we would be less than human. We would not be experiencing the birth-pains as we struggle to become more than we now are.

I don't, in fact, agree that the Christ-event has had no effect upon humanity. The Christ-even has had great cosmological impact upon humanity. God has done God's part. It is up to us to do ours. Humanity's existence is in the form of covenant relationship with God. The relationship only works if both parties are in compliance.

Christ's passion is best understood in the dynamic that God became one of us, and entered fully into the human condition. That's an important part of grace. We don't look at the degree of suffering as the impetus for our faith, but at the willingness of God to 1) cause reconciliation by uniting the human to the Divine, and to 2) give God's whole self for humanity.

Unconditional love is the cardinal rule of Christianity. Care for the gift of the creation is our cardinal task (according to Genesis). What's your beef? That we are human and not Divine, so we make mistakes? Injustice, oppression and impericism make me angry, too. But I work to create a little "island of decency" in the chaos of human sin. If enough of us do that, humanity will be so much the better. Griping doesn't help. Action does.

 

[sojourner]

There can be no goodness without "badness". I believe in the whole balance concept. We would have no idea what light was if there was no darkness. Everything that happens in this world has a purpose. It is a true test of faith to try to figure out what those purposes are without losing your mind.

That's blatantly dualistic thinking, which has no place in Biblical theology (which was the subject of the OP). Your statement in red is mistaken. The concept of light is not dependent upon a knowledge of darkness. Don't believe me? Take a high-powered spotlight (one of those 1,000,000 candlepower things), hold it up against your right eye and TURN IT ON! outside, in broad daylight. You'll get a real good concept of just what light is, without the aid of a concept of darkness.

 

[sojourner]

I think this is more to do with the theology of the people who wrote the Old Testrament books, and how it changed over time. I think there were periods - the invasion of Canaan, the exile, reign of Kind David etc - where people did see God as responsible for wars, for organising them, commanding individuals to orchestrate certain events - God was like a man playing Risk in those days, similar to how the Greeks saw their Gods playing with the lives of mortals like a game.

Our "modern" view of god comes from the later NT times when God is a far more distant and all-encompassing being, influenced by Platonic thought, His role more as the God of the world rather than the God of the Jews alone as it was in David's time.

Boy, does this open up a whole big can of worms! anyone who thinks that the concept that the OT writers has of God is one of vengeance and retribution is sadly mistaken. While it is true that some stories do put God in a bad light, the preponderance of the Biblical message is one of God's hesed, grace, forgiveness, mercy. The last words of Genesis, alone, bring such a message.

There are things in the Biblical tradition that are just wrong. We have to decide what they are, call them what they are, and preach against them sometimes. We have to decide what God is really like. Is God really like one who would commit genocide? Or cause suffering? Or be held responsible for what humanity does and the suffering that brings?

 

[HB3]

I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world? I know it’s all down to humans actions etc. but if your God is all loving then why don’t he stop it? If he sacrificed his own son for our sins don’t you agree it’s had no affect on people whatsoever? And how can he sacrifice his only son anyway how could he let him go through so much pain and torment? That is just plain cruel if you ask me.

And another thing how can humans be so stupid? We brought all this suffering, hatred and pain to ourselves. We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth. Do we really value greed for land and oil over life? Some religious faiths talk of giving love to all etc. but never practice it themselves.

Put your hand up if you really believe in unconditional love and not just saying that because you feel it’s the right thing to say. Put your hand up if you send your love to everyone who suffers to everyone on this earth. Because I know I bloody well do.

You raise a good point that I have often struggled with myself. I cannot accept any of the explanations I have heard so far from friends, preachers, or othewise. Some say suffering is necessary to make people stronger. Would that be applicable to infants who suffer and die from diseases before they ever have a chance to grow stronger? Others say that suffering does not come from God but from the laws of nature or free will or even Satan. But these same people want to give God credit for miracles that go against the laws of nature to save people from suffering. But if somone suffers and does not recieve a miracle, wouldn't God be responsible for not intervening - sort of like the idea of sins of omission.

While I remain active in a local church, this struggle has led me to a personal faith of Deism. I sometimes have to hold my tongue in Sunday School (am not always successful) but try not to belittle or discount the faith of others.

Another quick point - while there is much suffering and evil in the world, I think we need to keep ourselves aware of the good things that occur in life. Like Thomas Jefferson, I believe people are basically good and that goodness is not dependent on a particular faith or even a belief in a God. Jefferson wrote that he believed the desire to do good to others was a natural born instinct in humans. Hope he was right!

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
The suffereing that you talk about will continue to remain and so does the other side at all times.
Persons like Jesus / Buddha / Lao Tzu and others have been trying to get one simple fact into other human beings that the MIND is both the key and barrier.
The mind as barrier percieves things as sufferings or otherwise. When the mind is stilled is transedented then it is perceived as being in the garden of eden.
The creation is therefore an illusion / maya as each matter is but appears such on scientific analysis they are all atoms or protons/ neutrons rather an energy form.
This UNDERSTANDING is a prerequisite for salvation.
Better late than never or the other is also true It is never too late. Either way the understanding has to grow individually.
Love & rgds

 

[Katzpur]

I’m sure this has been asked before but how can you justify your faith when so much suffering is in this world?

Yes, it has been -- on many occasions, but that's okay. It's been awhile. From my perspective, my faith in God has little to do with the amount of suffering there is in the world.

I know it’s all down to humans actions etc. but if your God is all loving then why don’t he stop it?

First of all, it doesn't all get down to human actions. Human actions are a big part of suffering, but so are natural disasters and the natural effects of illness and aging on the human body. I'd like to try to answer your question, but I'm afraid I will need to have you clarify exactly what you mean. Exactly how much suffering do you believe God should allow? Should He eliminate all natural disasters? Should he let people live forever and then have them all just die in their sleep when they are in perfect health? Should all murderers be zapped dead in their tracks just moments before they pull the trigger? What about burglers? What about crooked businessmen? What about the guy who cuts into the parking place you thought was yours?

If he sacrificed his own son for our sins don’t you agree it’s had no affect on people whatsoever?

No, I certainly don't agree. The effect it has on anyone who repents of his sins is forgiveness on the part of God. The effect it has on everyone who has ever lived is to ensure that they will someday be resurrected.

And how can he sacrifice his only son anyway how could he let him go through so much pain and torment? That is just plain cruel if you ask me.

Actually, His Son made His sacrifice willingly because we were unable to become perfect without someone paying the price for our sins. You may see it as cruel on God's part; I see it as indescribable love.

And another thing how can humans be so stupid? We brought all this suffering, hatred and pain to ourselves. We are rapping and destroying the thing that thing that keeps us alive; the earth. Do we really value greed for land and oil over life? Some religious faiths talk of giving love to all etc. but never practice it themselves.

I don't know how some people can be so stupid. A lot of people are. Still, a lot aren't. Most religions teach love. There is nothing wrong with having an ideal to strive for. How far do you think most people would get if they had nothing to strive for?

 

[may]

when Jehovah gets rid of satan the devil , the former things will not be called to mind .
Knowing he has a short period of time, Satan steps up his demonic activity in these last days. Yet there is a silver lining to the clouds of our days. Revelation 21:1, 3-5 reveals what it is: "I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: ‘Write, because these words are faithful and true.’"...............
nice

 

[morning-star]

First of all, it doesn't all get down to human actions. Human actions are a big part of suffering, but so are natural disasters and the natural effects of illness and aging on the human body. I'd like to try to answer your question, but I'm afraid I will need to have you clarify exactly what you mean. Exactly how much suffering do you believe God should allow? Should He eliminate all natural disasters? Should he let people live forever and then have them all just die in their sleep when they are in perfect health? Should all murderers be zapped dead in their tracks just moments before they pull the trigger? What about burglers? What about crooked businessmen? What about the guy who cuts into the parking place you thought was yours?

personaly i don't believe that there is one God and it is a symple as that.the fact is that once you say well i should think that man should live and 'God' should stop that man from stealing my parking space you become selfish and unjust. but the fact that we over poplulate this earth makes natural disarsters mother natures way of keeping numbers down, it's just that we create much more suffering to ourselves then is nessary.

No, I certainly don't agree. The effect it has on anyone who repents of his sins is forgiveness on the part of God. The effect it has on everyone who has ever lived is to ensure that they will someday be resurrected.

Thats why nutters go around killing peopl thinking thats it's ok and they can repent and 'God' will forgive them. or there doing 'the lords' work.

Actually, His Son made His sacrifice willingly because we were unable to become perfect without someone paying the price for our sins. You may see it as cruel on God's part; I see it as indescribable love.

show me where its helped. we still live in 'sin' and outcast from 'eden'

I don't know how some people can be so stupid. A lot of people are. Still, a lot aren't. Most religions teach love. There is nothing wrong with having an ideal to strive for. How far do you think most people would get if they had nothing to strive for?

i agree people do need something to strive for, some hope that there is something more than what we see now.

 

[morning-star]

when Jehovah gets rid of satan the devil , the former things will not be called to mind .
Knowing he has a short period of time, Satan steps up his demonic activity in these last days. Yet there is a silver lining to the clouds of our days. Revelation 21:1, 3-5 reveals what it is: "I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’ Also, he says: ‘Write, because these words are faithful and true.’"...............
nice

I'm not going to comment or arge on this other than I think that is a load of rubbish, and NO offence is intended by this comment to you or any Jehovah witness anywhere, its just that in my eyes I really can't believe this to be true.

 

[Grian]

That's blatantly dualistic thinking, which has no place in Biblical theology (which was the subject of the OP). Your statement in red is mistaken. The concept of light is not dependent upon a knowledge of darkness. Don't believe me? Take a high-powered spotlight (one of those 1,000,000 candlepower things), hold it up against your right eye and TURN IT ON! outside, in broad daylight. You'll get a real good concept of just what light is, without the aid of a concept of darkness.

Firstly, no where in the original post was the bible mentioned. Christ was brought up in passing, but I did not take that to mean that only Christians (or people who believe in the bible) could answer the question.

Secondly, no I am not mistaken. If it was never dark (daytime all the time) then we wouldn't have a concept of light. How would I know what light looked like if I didn't have darkness to compare it to?

And dualism? You are Christian, so you should have good concept of dualism what with the whole good and evil, god and the devil concept. I'm actually saying that there is a oneness about the whole thing as opposed to a dualistic separation. You can not have one without the other, thus they are connected.

By the way, did anyone ever tell you that making statements that equal to "You are wrong." is no way to conduct a discussion on beliefs? There are no absolutes. That's why they are called beliefs.

 

[michel]

You raise a good point that I have often struggled with myself. I cannot accept any of the explanations I have heard so far from friends, preachers, or othewise. Some say suffering is necessary to make people stronger. Would that be applicable to infants who suffer and die from diseases before they ever have a chance to grow stronger? Others say that suffering does not come from God but from the laws of nature or free will or even Satan. But these same people want to give God credit for miracles that go against the laws of nature to save people from suffering. But if somone suffers and does not recieve a miracle, wouldn't God be responsible for not intervening - sort of like the idea of sins of omission.

While I remain active in a local church, this struggle has led me to a personal faith of Deism. I sometimes have to hold my tongue in Sunday School (am not always successful) but try not to belittle or discount the faith of others.

Another quick point - while there is much suffering and evil in the world, I think we need to keep ourselves aware of the good things that occur in life. Like Thomas Jefferson, I believe people are basically good and that goodness is not dependent on a particular faith or even a belief in a God. Jefferson wrote that he believed the desire to do good to others was a natural born instinct in humans. Hope he was right!

Your first paragraph is something that used to worry me too, until I "addopted" the idea of reincarnation. I ndidn't do so just to have a "quick fix" for those points you have mentioned, but the idea has actually made sense to what (otherwise) would seem strange and "wrong" (for me).

I would also agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph; we are all too quick to see the bad in people (usually because the people who do awful things make the headlines, while those that live a peaceful good life go unoticed)............