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How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Holy Carp what a pile of false accusation and strawman fallacy and made up nonsense.

Lets us get the first thing straight .. lest you have forgotten .. "ME" = Scientist "You" = not so much. It is you demonstrating "ignorance of science" - "Selective Misuse to justify some tribal -religious agenda"

Your inferred claim that gamma ray mutations are not random .. is "anti-science" nonsense. Full Stop ..
and thus .. any process that is dependent on this random process is itself a random process.

What I also said .. gone blistering deer in headlights .. is that genetic mutation is not the only means by which mutations happen .. which means that the gamma ray mutation path may be insigificant to the overall path of natural selection ..

The fact that other factors -- such as environmental change can drive the direction of evolution --does not change the fact that random factors are sometimes involved .. nor can you claim that environmental factors do not have a random element .. certainly in affecting survival if the fittest.

Your claim that the process of evolution is not based .. at least in part .. on random chance is preposterous anti - science nonsense .. exactly what you are accusing others of. As it turns out the process of evolution is even more random than initially assessed on closer inspection.

Your position is crucified friend .. based on some religious or tribal agenda

Now .. if the process of evolution is random by nature the forces dictating its path .. but we notice deviations .. notice that evolution is not random ... as you suggest but perhaps don't know how to express .. then it is you who is suggesting an invisible hand .. You who has the religious perspective..

If observed evolution is not random as you suggest .. this means you are arguing for intelligent design .. that the machine is programed to deviate from random .. deviate from entropy and produce some order out of the Chaos.
Holy Carp what a pile of false accusation and strawman fallacy and made up nonsense.

I AM NOT arguing for 'Intelligent Design' because ID argues for randomness in nature as part of the reason why Intelligent Design is necessary.


Intelligent design theory attempts to refute the chance and random forces which drive evolution. Intelligent designers like William Dembski insist that because of its complexity, life on Earth was created by an intelligent being, not by the evolutionary forces of change over time and descent with modification.

Intelligent design argues that nature is too random and complex to be explainable by Natural Laws and processes. That is why they use corrupted form of probability to explain why evolution cannot take place naturally without a designer.

I argue for "Natural Determinism" where the variation in the outcomes of cause and effect events is limited by Natural Laws and processes and the veriability of outcomes can be modeled with Chaos theory as fractal as with weather prediction models., which is why the falsification of theories and hypothesis in science is predictable and verifiable. If it were random hypotheses and theories could not be falsified.

Example of radioactive decay models and fractal relationships: Fractal power laws and radioactive waste decay

Fractal power laws and radioactive waste decay​


Here’s a fairly simple model for nuclear reactor decay heat versus time. It’s based on a fractal model I came up with for dealing with the statistics of crime, fires, etc. The start was to notice that radioactive waste is typically a mixture of isotopes with different decay times and different decay heats. I then came to suspect that there would be a general fractal relation, and that the fractal relation would hold through as the elements of the mixed waste decayed to more stable, less radioactive products. After looking a bit, if seems that the fractal time characteristic is time to the 1/4 power, that is
heat output = H° exp (-at1/4).
Here H° is the heat output rate at some time =0 and “a” is a characteristic of the waste. Different waste mixes will have different values of this decay characteristic.
If nuclear waste consisted of one isotope and one decay path, the number of atoms decaying per day would decrease exponentially with time to the power of 1. If there were only one daughter product produced, and it were non-radioactive, the heat output of a sample would also decay with time to the power of 1. Thus, Heat output would equal H° exp (-at) and a plot of the log of the decay heat would be linear against linear time — you could plot it all conveniently on semi-log paper.
But nuclear waste generally consists of many radioactive components with different half lives, and these commpnents decay into other radioactive isotopes, all of whom have half-lives that vary by quite a lot. The result is that a semi-log plot is rarely helpful. Some people therefore plot radioactivity on a log-log plot, typically including a curve for each major isotope and decay mode. I find these plots hardly useful. They are certainly impossible to extrapolate. What I’d like to propose instead is a fractal variation of the original semi-log plot: a plot of the log of the heat rate against a fractal time. As shown below the use of time to the 1/4 power seems to be helpful. The plot is similar to a fractal decay model that I’d developed for crimes and fires a few weeks ago.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Holy Carp what a pile of false accusation and strawman fallacy and made up nonsense.

Lets us get the first thing straight .. lest you have forgotten .. "ME" = Scientist "You" = not so much. It is you demonstrating "ignorance of science" - "Selective Misuse to justify some tribal -religious agenda"

Your inferred claim that gamma ray mutations are not random .. is "anti-science" nonsense. Full Stop ..
and thus .. any process that is dependent on this random process is itself a random process.

What I also said .. gone blistering deer in headlights .. is that genetic mutation is not the only means by which mutations happen .. which means that the gamma ray mutation path may be insigificant to the overall path of natural selection ..

The fact that other factors -- such as environmental change can drive the direction of evolution --does not change the fact that random factors are sometimes involved .. nor can you claim that environmental factors do not have a random element .. certainly in affecting survival if the fittest.

Your claim that the process of evolution is not based .. at least in part .. on random chance is preposterous anti - science nonsense .. exactly what you are accusing others of. As it turns out the process of evolution is even more random than initially assessed on closer inspection.

Your position is crucified friend .. based on some religious or tribal agenda

Now .. if the process of evolution is random by nature the forces dictating its path .. but we notice deviations .. notice that evolution is not random ... as you suggest but perhaps don't know how to express .. then it is you who is suggesting an invisible hand .. You who has the religious perspective..

If observed evolution is not random as you suggest .. this means you are arguing for intelligent design .. that the machine is programed to deviate from random .. deviate from entropy and produce some order out of the Chaos.
This reference lists over a hundred scientific research articles on fractal relationships in genetic mutations based on Chaos Theory.

Google Scholar


scholar.google.com
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Now prove to us that last Thursday existed, if you believe in that. I won't accept that without proof.
haha that's funny. You just "proved" the situation...that ain't no proof of the vicissitudes of evolution. See? Get it? No, I suppose not. or maybe you do ... who knows, no proof of anybody else knowing...:)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
haha that's funny. You just "proved" the situation...that ain't no proof of the vicissitudes of evolution. See? Get it? No, I suppose not. or maybe you do ... who knows, no proof of anybody else knowing...:)
Your lack of knowledge of the basic English language concerning what is proof, is very apparent,
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Your lack of knowledge of the basic English language concerning what is proof, is very apparent,
Hardly. 2+2 equals 4 but no substantiation of any sort of fish evolving to landlubbers means exactly zero . Fossils are clearly no proof, in your language or mine.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So you have the same amount and kind of evidence for your beliefs as you require for evolution?.
Just as there were certainly those who were against Paul (then and now) and did not believe the report of his experience, that about sizes it up for me. In other words, I have a consciousness of events that helped me to believe in God. But I sized up the sequence of events. And whereas I used to accept whatever science said about evolution, I no longer do. I do accept the experience I had that led me to understand more about the Bible and true Christianity.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Just as there were certainly those who were against Paul (then and now) and did not believe the report of his experience, that about sizes it up for me. In other words, I have a consciousness of events that helped me to believe in God. But I sized up the sequence of events. And whereas I used to accept whatever science said about evolution, I no longer do. I do accept the experience I had that led me to understand more about the Bible and true Christianity.
A rather long winded "no"
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We are talking about science and not proof in math.

Your lack of knowledge of the basic English language concerning what is proof, is very apparent,
Once again -- there is nothing beyond conjecture in relation to the idea that fish merged out of water and eventually became virtual total land dwellers. Only dreamwork.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Holy Carp what a pile of false accusation and strawman fallacy and made up nonsense.

I AM NOT arguing for 'Intelligent Design' because ID argues for randomness in nature as part of the reason why Intelligent Design is necessary.


Intelligent design theory attempts to refute the chance and random forces which drive evolution. Intelligent designers like William Dembski insist that because of its complexity, life on Earth was created by an intelligent being, not by the evolutionary forces of change over time and descent with modification.

Intelligent design argues that nature is too random and complex to be explainable by Natural Laws and processes. That is why they use corrupted form of probability to explain why evolution cannot take place naturally without a designer.

I argue for "Natural Determinism" where the variation in the outcomes of cause and effect events is limited by Natural Laws and processes and the veriability of outcomes can be modeled with Chaos theory as fractal as with weather prediction models., which is why the falsification of theories and hypothesis in science is predictable and verifiable. If it were random hypotheses and theories could not be falsified.

Example of radioactive decay models and fractal relationships: Fractal power laws and radioactive waste decay

Fractal power laws and radioactive waste decay​


Here’s a fairly simple model for nuclear reactor decay heat versus time. It’s based on a fractal model I came up with for dealing with the statistics of crime, fires, etc. The start was to notice that radioactive waste is typically a mixture of isotopes with different decay times and different decay heats. I then came to suspect that there would be a general fractal relation, and that the fractal relation would hold through as the elements of the mixed waste decayed to more stable, less radioactive products. After looking a bit, if seems that the fractal time characteristic is time to the 1/4 power, that is
heat output = H° exp (-at1/4).
Here H° is the heat output rate at some time =0 and “a” is a characteristic of the waste. Different waste mixes will have different values of this decay characteristic.
If nuclear waste consisted of one isotope and one decay path, the number of atoms decaying per day would decrease exponentially with time to the power of 1. If there were only one daughter product produced, and it were non-radioactive, the heat output of a sample would also decay with time to the power of 1. Thus, Heat output would equal H° exp (-at) and a plot of the log of the decay heat would be linear against linear time — you could plot it all conveniently on semi-log paper.
But nuclear waste generally consists of many radioactive components with different half lives, and these commpnents decay into other radioactive isotopes, all of whom have half-lives that vary by quite a lot. The result is that a semi-log plot is rarely helpful. Some people therefore plot radioactivity on a log-log plot, typically including a curve for each major isotope and decay mode. I find these plots hardly useful. They are certainly impossible to extrapolate. What I’d like to propose instead is a fractal variation of the original semi-log plot: a plot of the log of the heat rate against a fractal time. As shown below the use of time to the 1/4 power seems to be helpful. The plot is similar to a fractal decay model that I’d developed for crimes and fires a few weeks ago.

"Holy Carp what a pile of false accusation and strawman fallacy and made up nonsense." Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery .. but unfortunately, unlike the Chemist in the room .. you can not back up your bold acusations which is just projection

Being a Chemist I understand radioactive decay quite well .. you know .. subject matter domain science and all .. so nice of you to talk about radioactive waste .. but not nice that you did not link this at all to support for your nonsense claim that mutation by gamma ray explosion is not random.

You then go on to build another strawman .. suggesting I have attempted "to refute the chance and random forces which drive evolution."
when the reverse is true .. my position is that random forces and chance are drivers of evolution - and it is YOU who has been suggesting that this is not the case which is arguing for intelligent design .. as you yourself state.

What part of the picture of a dog chasing its own tail is not revealing itself .. this is the 3rd time I have pointed out this contradiction in your position .. and you went and did it again in the above post .. in addition to pretending I hold this wonky position.

You are the one arguing for intelligent design thusfar ... and not me. I read James Gliek's book "Chaos Theory" when it came out ~ 4 decades ago.. and you are on the right track in terms of finding order in the Chaos .. but for the moment have things backwards .. ... just have to reverse everything you have been saying and you will have solved a puzzle.

Last .. you are an absolutely terrible listner .. have absolutly no idea what is being said to you .. as evidenced by attributing a position to the other the reverse of what they have said to you.

The forces of nature drive evolution .. some of those forces are random .. others are not .. this is just the facts of science .. not some religious or tribal fantasy you were wailing on about -- or was that someone else .. hard to remember the source of all these loony ideas .. my apologies if I have attributed one more fallacy to you than deserved.

Now .. Step 1) mutations are driven by a number of forces .. some static .. some random .. Agreed ?

as an aside .. they sent a Twin into space he experienced "subtle genetic changes" Astronaut twins study spots subtle genetic changes caused by space travel

anyways Agree /Disagree
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Or DNA, fossils and observation.
Observation does not show one species morphing to another.
DNA also does not show or demonstrate some "Unknown Common Ancestor" morphing (evolving) to chimps, gorillas, bonobos or humans.
Fossils also do not show or demonstrate that fish developed appendages and lungs that allowed them to become total land dwellers.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And until then all you have is conjecture, speculation, and wishful thinking...

None of which meets the same level of standards you want presented for evolution.
Evolution may be true in all its aspects to you. And others. Just as no one here saw the earth being formed, neither has anyone seen fish evolving to become total land dwellers.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Observation does not show one species morphing to another.
DNA also does not show or demonstrate some "Unknown Common Ancestor" morphing (evolving) to chimps, gorillas, bonobos or humans.
Fossils also do not show or demonstrate that fish developed appendages and lungs that allowed them to become total land dwellers.

Says whom?
 
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