How can you literally believe...

[Saint Frankenstein]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I came to the conclusion a few years back that it's a psychological issue; one that's based upon an individual's egotistical approach to themselves, their families and ancestors.

Sounds mean, and I usually think that psychoanalysis of people I've met and haven't met is a kind of ***** act in most contexts, but this is a religious forum that should accommodate such a thing. And I think I remember see an actual psychological study years back that indicated such a thing.

Something along the lines of a self talk that sounds like: "my grandfather was a great man - how dare anyone call his beliefs false!"

 

[Kemosloby]

You don't leave footprints walking on water. What we have are eyewitness accounts in an era when the authorities wanted it all covered up.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

You don't leave footprints walking on water. What we have are eyewitness accounts in an era when the authorities wanted it all covered up.

No you don't.

The idea that these "eyewitness accounts" are in any way verified is laughable - especially considering how heavily manipulated the texts have been over such a long time and through so many widely different historical contexts.

Imagine if these claims were to be tested in a court of law. It would never make it to court in the first place because the claims would be too outrageous to file in the first place.

 

[Kemosloby]

No you don't.

The idea that these "eyewitness accounts" are in any way verified is laughable - especially considering how heavily manipulated the texts have been over such a long time and through so many widely different historical contexts.

Imagine if these claims were to be tested in a court of law. It would never make it to court in the first place because the claims would be too outrageous to file in the first place.

Like I said, they were the underdogs. Their version of the truth may not have been the "official" version of the truth, in their day. But many many people believed their story, they had a good jury of 12 disciples. Which is good enough for any court.

 

[George-ananda]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me.

I think many miracles have happened and still happen today.

If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world.

I think someone like Sai Baba has done similar things as Jesus has been claimed to have done but both (Jesus and Sai Baba) are met with only scoffing ridicule by the pseudo-skeptics of today.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Like I said, they were the underdogs. Their version of the truth may not have been the "official" version of the truth, in their day. But many many people believed their story, they had a good jury of 12 disciples. Which is good enough for any court.

Lol that's so far beyond ridiculous that it's dangerous. I sincerely hope that no one takes this post seriously.

 

[Nietzsche]

You don't leave footprints walking on water. What we have are eyewitness accounts in an era when the authorities wanted it all covered up.

Well, no. What you have are accounts that claim to be eyewitness.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I think many miracles have happened and still happen today. I think someone like Sai Baba has done similar things as Jesus has been claimed to have done but both (Jesus and Sai Baba) are met with only scoffing ridicule by the pseudo-skeptics of today.

So pseudoscepticism is the only obstacle between man and a universal realization of the absolute truth of religion or religious claims?

Sounds kinda dumb and incompatible with so many of their associated omnipotent gods.

 

[George-ananda]

So pseudoscepticism is the only obstacle between man and a universal realization of the absolute truth of religion or religious claims?

Sounds kinda dumb and incompatible with so many of their associated omnipotent gods.

I am lost as to what you are trying to say....????

 

[Timothy Bryce]

I am lost as to what you are trying to say....????

I'm unaware of what you believe specifically, but I find any religion that features an omnipotent god, capable of causing miracles, incompatible with the lack of empirical evidence that has been provided for man-kind. It seems to me that we wouldn't even be discussing this if it were.

 

[lovesong]

While I know you're targeting this just at Christians, I feel like it can be extended a bit. Your criticism is to those who believe that things have literally happened that defy what we generally accept as possible. While I don't believe Jesus did any of those things, I do believe that the gods do and have done a great many extraordinary things. There's nothing more ridiculous about one person believing their god walked on water and raised the dead than another person believing their gods bring storms or good crops than another person believing in magic and the ability to speak to the dead. Really this is even no more ridiculous than the belief in gods at all. If a god exists, why shouldn't they be able to do things outside of our every day experience?

 

[Didachist]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?


Well lets see, you are offended at these ideas, but from a Christian perspective you will be even more offended as Christ told his disciples and those who believe in him, will do even more!

As for raising the dead, we do believe, that at the time of the death of Christ the saints of Jerusalem came back to life, as for what happened to them we do not truly know, as for healing the sick and disabled, we do this today the prayer of a man in righteousness has great power, you could walk into many Churches and see this for yourself, but know sometimes there are charlatans, sometimes there are those who doubt etc. as for the ascension he arose unto the clouds.

How can we believe this? a better question is how can we not when we are promised great riches, and we see both spiritually and physically the evidences of truth from those who are Christian?

 

[Altfish]

I think many miracles have happened and still happen today. I think someone like Sai Baba has done similar things as Jesus has been claimed to have done but both (Jesus and Sai Baba) are met with only scoffing ridicule by the pseudo-skeptics of today.

But these 'pseudo-skeptics' you mock are only looking for evidence.
No evidence = doubt; doubt = probably didn't happen.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Frankenstein;

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world.

lol - wait - let me stop laughing....Ok thats better..lol..Look - it practically IS the "biggest thing in the world".. 2000 years later and the world is still debating it arguing it fighting over it none stop...probably will be for a long itme to come....lol..NOTHING in our entire history has affected the world more than this one event....

As to His truth - look its simple - He said actually you are a kind of "super mind" - the Divine Mind - but you dont yet realise this Self truth...WHEN you come to realise who and what you are, then you too will do these things....Now - heres the bit most will struggle with - but I will say it plainly...MIND CREATES YOUR VERY EXISTANCE - literally so...what you BELIEVE is indeed the main cause of the reality you directly EXPERIENCE !! That IS true - but only its direct experience will convince you

Trouble is the world is full of none believers who have never expereinced their truth...And so as we grew up they TAUGHT us THEIR TRUTH as they falsely have it, and so we along with them became also deluded, just as they are...NONE of us then are experiencing our truth today - not many of us - not allowed to - all the deluded religions are led off down the wrong track as they search His truth - and all those fully deluded athiests with their consatnt denials bring doubt and uncertainty to us - literally stifling our creative potential, making us have doubts and worries - and so we give up our power and adopt THEIR reality instead as we need their acceptance to fit in with this "society" we have now made for ourselves ...Remember always we are SELF CREATED - yet we have ALWAYS allowed OTHERS to define who and what we are here in life,yes..??..

Not many of us can get past this delusion we impose upon our Self - and this is WHY such things SEEM to be impossible and unbelievable.....

BUT - I assure you (all) - encounter your actual nature - in the way Christ alone revealed - and as He promises all these mysteries will indeed be DIRECTLY revealed to you

And if any need proof of modern miracles - if any need proof that yes indeed - PERSPECTIVE OF SELF - quite literally - defines and actually CREATES the thing you believe the Self to be - then please go check out a remarkable lady - Anita Moorjani - she wrote a book now called "Dying to be me" and it is truly remarkable and fully verified by all concerned....

I and a few others had the chance to speak to her on another forum, way back as she was going through all this and trying to make sense of what had happened...Because you see, she ONCE had full on CANCER - to the point that they decided to end support and turn off the machines..She had gone into a coma - full organ failure.absolutely riddled with tumours....She DIED - met entities she called "beings of light" - they TAUGHT her about mind and energy - just as Christ did identical truths - and with this knowledge she REVIVED her body - came back to full life - came back to FULL HEALTH - AS IF SHE HAD NEVER HAD ANY CANCER AT ALL !!!

Now this is truly a MIRACLE - is it not..?...In spirit - these beings revealed to her that if she CHOSE to come back - then she would live and her body could be fully healed as said, as if it had NEVER even been diseased at all...And indeed this is EXACTLY what happened - all verified by her doctors, specialists and everyone concerned fully perplexed...The only logical explanation is HER own explanation -she learned of such truth DIRECT FROM SPIRIT and did indeed HEAL HER BODY FULLY - new tests performed showed a continued diminishing of the cancer until just a few short weeks and she was totally cancer free, as if she had NEVER ever been ill at all.....

THIS LEVEL OF SELF UNDERSTANDING - direct experience of Self as SPIRIT -as living and CONSCIOUS ENERGY - is vitally required to perform these bona fide miracles...We MUST come to know and fully appreciate WHO and WHAT we actually are...

I and the Father are one already Christ said - the task now is to BECOME ME - Angels and guides will come give you whatever you require He promises and Anita is a clear example of the living proof that what He taught is legitimate..As He said first before all things, come to KNOW THY SELF - for those with ears to hear....

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Coming back from the dead isn't as hard as it sounds. Nearly all resurrection stories tend to have the plot convenience of having an intact body that wasn't suffocated by a lot of dirt poured on it. I think we're just looking at people waking from comas or some other "fake" death thing and people freaked and thought it was a supernatural occurrence. Let us note that Jesus never brings back the beheaded John the Baptist. I think that is a major clue.

Water is a funny thing, where you can't see what's underneath the surface from certain angles in certain lighting conditions.

Faith healings all seem to require either blatant staging or some poor sap who is suffering from some psychosomatic thing.

Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Jesus is also hardly the only one on the planet who has tales of doing cool stuff. I mean, Jesus says with faith you can move a mountain, but I read that Krishna as a kid actually pulled it off, so ...

Like I said, they were the underdogs. Their version of the truth may not have been the "official" version of the truth, in their day. But many many people believed their story, they had a good jury of 12 disciples. Which is good enough for any court.

And no one innocent has ever gone to prison or executed due to a full 12 member jury. And no one guilty has ever been set free thanks to a full 12 member jury.

Jesus died thanks to "false" witnesses, so I guess that blows the "we had eyewitnesses" logic, huh?

Well lets see, you are offended at these ideas, but from a Christian perspective you will be even more offended as Christ told his disciples and those who believe in him, will do even more!

And yet they don't.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suspect those claims were never meant to be believed as such, at least back in the day. They are part of myth, not of investigative journalism nor of history. Their role is to provide metaphors, figures of speech, symbolical and inspiring images for people to conjure in conversation and to bond over with.

The combination of the distancing through time and far too many generations of lack of proper challenge to family tradition and peer pressure have unduly raised that myth to a role of supposed "literal truth" that troubled many a doctrine since.

 

[Didachist]

Jesus died thanks to "false" witnesses, so I guess that blows the "we had eyewitnesses" logic, huh?

Not really, as your assertion is false, as the sanhendrin compiled against Jesus no witnesses other than himself, since your argument is based on a false witness against himself it is incorrect as he was truly the son of God.

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Well lets see, you are offended at these ideas, but from a Christian perspective you will be even more offended as Christ told his disciples and those who believe in him, will do even more!

And yet they don't.

But we do, we heal the sick, and we resurrect the dead. we may not do so in the exact way Christ did but in substance we do all these things.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But we do, we heal the sick, and we resurrect the dead. we may not do so in the exact way Christ did but in substance we do all these things.

Christianity doesn't do these things. The healthcare profession does. The religious status of said professionals means nothing, really.

 

[allfoak]

The historians of the time totally missed these things as well. The reason the historians didn't record them is cause they never happened