How can you literally believe...

[viole]

I and a few others had the chance to speak to her on another forum, way back as she was going through all this and trying to make sense of what had happened...Because you see, she ONCE had full on CANCER - to the point that they decided to end support and turn off the machines..She had gone into a coma - full organ failure.absolutely riddled with tumours....She DIED - met entities she called "beings of light" - they TAUGHT her about mind and energy - just as Christ did identical truths - and with this knowledge she REVIVED her body - came back to full life - came back to FULL HEALTH - AS IF SHE HAD NEVER HAD ANY CANCER AT ALL !!!

Now this is truly a MIRACLE - is it not..?...In spirit - these beings revealed to her that if she CHOSE to come back - then she would live and her body could be fully healed as said, as if it had NEVER even been diseased at all...

What skeptics find odd is that miracles, in general, are restricted to internal medicine, ergo when a lot of things can go on behind the scenes, while things like genetic diseases or losing an arm seem to remain pretty irreversible. I wonder what amputees did to deserve this favoritism God seems to have for cancer patients.

But what I find even more odd, is that most persons would consider the reports of this lady a happy ending story. Apart from the obvious fact that it is easier to sell books (about the existence of the afterlife) here than in the hereafter, would you see any other rational reason to wanting to come back, if Heaven is so awesome?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Didachist]

Physician heal thy self.

 

[Ouroboros]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

On top of that, Philo of Alexandria, who went to Jerusalem during the time of Jesus, wrote books about different religions and faith, wrote about "Logos" in similar way to Gospel of John, and whose writings were saved by the early Christians, didn't mention Jesus a single time. A contemporary writer with the same religious interests and were at the place... It's obvious that the stories were exaggerated.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Viole;

What skeptics find odd is that miracles, in general, are restricted to internal medicine, ergo when a lot of things can go on behind the scenes, while things like genetic diseases or losing an arm seem to remain pretty irreversible.

Hmm - things are always going on "behind the scenes" - because simply science and medicine dont know it all do they, so there is always processes happening they are not privvy too...Indeed- science and medicine SEEM to know a lot and tell us to trust them always - but actually when it comes to "what is life" they remain yet pretty clueless, and cant ACTUALLY pinpoint this "force" that powers the body and mind...

I wonder what amputees did to deserve this favoritism God seems to have for cancer patients.

You seem to miss the point here - no "god" healed her - no "god" even made it self known - she didnt NEED that knowledge - but rather beings made of PURE CONSCIOUS ENERGY - some even her previous deceased family -THEY SHOWED UP (as Christ promises) - and showed her directly what she ACTUALLY is - CONSCIOUS ENERGY...Showed her precisely that which she NEEDED to know...As Christ promises to Thomas - messengers, Angels and prophets WILL COME TO YOU and give you what is "yours" - the TRUTH you seek

With THAT knowledge of Self, she HEALED HERSELF - literally by BELIEF and WIll(power) she REARRANGED the ENERGY that SHE IS - WE ARE - and had it become again a healthy functioning body....It all became possible BECAUSE of her change in SELF PERSPECTIVE as she spent time in a COMA - MIND present in that "other reality" and only partly tied to the failing and DYING physical form - COMATOSE...Then as they discussed ending support and she crossed that dimension fully - learned her truth fully - decided to return as described...NO external force aided her except to give her DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of who and what she ETERNALLY is and that BELIEF OF SELF is all that is needed as we ARE indeed a SELF CREATED BEING always...

But what I find even more odd, is that most persons would consider the reports of this lady a happy ending story. Apart from the obvious fact that it is easier to sell books (about the existence of the afterlife) here than in the hereafter, would you see any other rational reason to wanting to come back, if Heaven is so awesome?

Well - as I say - I personally spoke to her right at the start -YEARS BEFORE she had any books or notoriety...She started off as just another confused internet poster ..She had this amazing thing happen..and had VERIFIABLE PROOF.....The forum ripped into her both sides , believer and skeptic hounded her constantly, gave her no peace at all as her case is pretty unique and as I say FULLY VERIFIED by all those MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS who simply cannot explain it...It was greatly troubling to her actually...VERY HARD to make such truths now gel with THIS mortal world....Very hard to get settled again once something so mind blowingly undeniable happens to you...As I often say -EXPERIENCE - GNOSIS - is ALWAYS the best teacher

Whos even speaking of "heaven"..?...You mention "god" and "heaven" as if this was somehow religious lol - as if the experiences themselves are bogus or tainted by THAT religiouos belief - but I tell you that is entirely back to front - the experience is real and the religious explanation is merely a confusion as they try to work it all out WITHOUT the benefit of direct experience.. I may speak of CHRIST and a Divine Mind but trust me when I say this is a universal METAPHYSICAL truth and NOT a religious truth at all

I could probably think of lots of rational reasons to come back here once we have attained THAT state - I cant speak for Anita, except she herself stated to me once she was simply not ready to die, scared and bewidered....For my self I know exactly why Im here now and why i stick around here still...To put it bluntly there are other Souls here that Iam deeply bonded too, cannot be seperate from, and they at this moment in their awareness, fully need me to be here with them...Iam - how to say - waiting for them to catch up - so I came here again to help them out directly and if need be then I will come back again next life to accomplish that task...He promised - none shall be left behind guidance always availabe for those who need - Find that inner Light and let it shine on all who seek it out is the only request He asks of us and that alone id reason enough to ebndure this life....My nephew Steve - I will say here - came also to this Self awareness - yet found after all he was then unable to endure life any more, and so he took himself off one night and committed suicide -fully aware what he was doing, with expressed initent to leave this mortal life behind entirely - transcend - and reclaim that spiritual eternal truth fully...Make of it what you will...Its all about SELF PERCEPTION - as Christ said - above all things KNOW THY SELF become fully revealed

 

[George-ananda]

I'm unaware of what you believe specifically,

I am a non-dual (God and creation are not-two) Hinduish/New Ageish type.

but I find any religion that features an omnipotent god, capable of causing miracles, incompatible with the lack of empirical evidence that has been provided for man-kind. It seems to me that we wouldn't even be discussing this if it were

The universe and life itself can be said to be miracles from my perspective, Now, as for the things we call paranormal miracles the evidence is plenty if you consider the extra-ordinary experiences of many, many people. These things are temporary events leaving nothing to show a denier later. I think paranormal miracles by higher entities are only meant to support belief but not compel a non-believer to believe.

 

[George-ananda]

But these 'pseudo-skeptics' you mock are only looking for evidence.
No evidence = doubt; doubt = probably didn't happen.

Skepticism is a good thing and sufficient evidence should be required before belief.. The pseudo skepticism of a certain group today is a bad thing as it is not really interested in a fair objective evaluation of the evidence but in attacking anything that would be outside the atheist-materialist worldview. A real skeptic has no agenda but follows the evidence objectively.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

While I know you're targeting this just at Christians, I feel like it can be extended a bit. Your criticism is to those who believe that things have literally happened that defy what we generally accept as possible. While I don't believe Jesus did any of those things, I do believe that the gods do and have done a great many extraordinary things. There's nothing more ridiculous about one person believing their god walked on water and raised the dead than another person believing their gods bring storms or good crops than another person believing in magic and the ability to speak to the dead. Really this is even no more ridiculous than the belief in gods at all. If a god exists, why shouldn't they be able to do things outside of our every day experience?

Someone else would have to answer that since I don't believe in miracles or anything outside of the laws of Nature. I also don't view the Gods as somehow outside of Their sphere of influence (for example, Zeus is the Divine Essence of the sky, not some being somehow overseeing the sky from the outside).

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Skepticism is a good thing and sufficient evidence should be required before belief.. The pseudo skepticism of a certain group today is a bad thing as it is not really interested in a fair objective evaluation of the evidence but in attacking anything that would be outside the atheist-materialist worldview. A real skeptic has no agenda but follows the evidence objectively.

Anyone who believes your presented evidence does not meet the rigor of anything else in science is considered a pseudo skeptic to you, just like those materialists consider those 'studies' to be pseudoscientific testimonial based data with no hard evidence. Just like creationists feel that anyone who rejects creationism does so because of a non-creationistic conspiracy to suppress truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

I dont know if this helps but I asked this question here and no one gives serious responses. Its one of those weird things we have to accept we dont understand for nothing.

The closest I get is personalizing hearsay stories. "My grandma says this and her grandma says that" and on back so that no one questions the logics of the belief because they are too personally attached to even do so.

If people can ask evolutionist "why arent there monkeys today" we should ask "why arent there rising dead today." These theories and stories are just that.

Why do people believe it? Maybe ask people who are not christians and who believe in strict miracles not metaphors and abstract words you can get another perspective. Theres a saying that a fool asks the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

Thats my RF slogan. Fool meaning someone who doesnt know not someone whonis stupid. Fancy word for ignorant.

I found the actual quote

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results -Einstein

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think someone like Sai Baba has done similar things as Jesus has been claimed to have done but both (Jesus and Sai Baba) are met with only scoffing ridicule by the pseudo-skeptics of today.

I suppose I must be one of those "pseudo-skeptics" since I see Sai Baba as just another charlatan. So-called "miracle workers" are just a bunch of lying thieves and criminals taking advantage of the credulous, imo.

 

[George-ananda]

Anyone who believes your presented evidence does not meet the rigor of anything else in science is considered a pseudo skeptic to you, just like those materialists consider those 'studies' to be pseudoscientific testimonial based data with no hard evidence. Just like creationists feel that anyone who rejects creationism does so because of a non-creationistic conspiracy to suppress truth.

So, we then have to delve into the details and the evidence and argumentation from all sides and judge for ourselves what is really going on. It takes some homework to have an informed position on any controversial issue. I am presenting my judgment after decades of hearing all sides.

 

[George-ananda]

I suppose I must be one of those "pseudo-skeptics" since I see Sai Baba as just another charlatan. So-called "miracle workers" are just a bunch of lying thieves and criminals taking advantage of the credulous,

I see.

imo.

So what I question is how informed and objectively studied is that opinion.

 

[illykitty]

I'd recommend watching a series on YouTube (which I will link), it dives into the mind of someone who was convinced of things like that and then deconverted. It should be interesting and also answer some of your questions too, if you have the time to watch them.

Link to playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

It's a pretty long series but each video is about 10 minutes on average, so you could listen to these while doing something else and in your own pace. I pretty much devoured this while doing chores, it was really interesting. It also dives into some psychology, history (as in history of god beliefs) and personal experiences as this person was slowly moving away from literal belief.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I am presenting my judgment after decades of hearing all sides.

So are probably a lot of if not most people you'd be disposed to call 'pseudo-skeptics.' And, even if you believe it privately, telling someone like a creationist that their research is probably tainted and colored by such a desire for their view to be The Truth that they wouldn't accept credible information which runs counter to their claim, and that their claim to be an objective 'both sides research' probably isn't true, would just come off as condescending and wouldn't get you anywhere.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'd recommend watching a series on YouTube (which I will link), it dives into the mind of someone who was convinced of things like that and then deconverted. It should be interesting and also answer some of your questions too, if you have the time to watch them.

Link to playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A

It's a pretty long series but each video is about 10 minutes on average, so you could listen to these while doing something else and in your own pace. I pretty much devoured this while doing chores, it was really interesting. It also dives into some psychology, history (as in history of god beliefs) and personal experiences as this person was slowly moving away from literal belief.

Thanks. I'm sure I'll be able to relate since I took much the same journey.

 

[George-ananda]

So are probably a lot of if not most people you'd be disposed to call 'pseudo-skeptics.'

Not at all have I found that. I have found they usually have a limited scope of the full breadth of data, for example, focusing on the things they might be able to explain. I am well read on both sides of the controversies.

And, even if you believe it privately, telling someone like a creationist that their research is probably tainted and colored by such a desire for their view to be The Truth that they wouldn't accept credible information which runs counter to their claim, and that their claim to be an objective 'both sides research' probably isn't true, would just come off as condescending and wouldn't get you anywhere.

Well, if we are really interested in a controversial topic we have to do our own research and then present what we have learned to others.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Not at all have I found that. I have found they usually have a limited scope of the full breadth of data, for example, focusing on the things they might be able to explain. I am well read on both sides of the controversies.

Or they have the same data you do, but do not accept it as being relevant either because of its unverifiable nature, being purely based on anecdotal evidence, being correlative, or being gathered in a way that influences a conclusion in a biased way (e.g. promiscuity studies of homosexuals comparing straight sex frequencies gathered from churches to gay frequencies gathered from gay bars).
But yeah, I agree we'd have to look at it as a case by case basis. But I'm willing to bet pseudo-skeptic gets thrown around mostly because they don't accept the same data, not because the data not being accepted is valuable.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world.

It's easy for people today in the secular world to blow off the significance of these things that happened so long ago, and/or conclude that they never actually happened, but It wasn't as easy to dismiss the reality of it when it wasn't so far away in the past.

Many of those who witnessed what Jesus did, or knew him first-hand for who he is, subsequently endured tortures and chose to die rather than to deny the truth. Even as centuries passed, more and more Christians were martyred, but greater numbers of Jews and pagans still wanted to convert. Bishops, priests, and deacons were imprisoned or murdered, but more of the faithful committed to becoming ordained. Twenty-five of the first thirty Popes are known to have been martyred. After each one fell, someone answered the call to take his place.

In questioning the magnitude and truth of what Christ did on earth, one consideration would be a review of how it affected people who weren't so far removed from it as we have become.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's easy for people today in the secular world to blow off the significance of these things that happened so long ago, and/or conclude that they never actually happened, but It wasn't as easy to dismiss the reality of it when it wasn't so far away in the past.

Many of those who witnessed what Jesus did, or knew him first-hand for who he is, subsequently endured tortures and chose to die rather than to deny the truth. Even as centuries passed, more and more Christians were martyred, but greater numbers of Jews and pagans still wanted to convert. Bishops, priests, and deacons were imprisoned or murdered, but more of the faithful committed to becoming ordained. Twenty-five of the first thirty Popes are known to have been martyred. After each one fell, someone answered the call to take his place.

In questioning the magnitude and truth of what Christ did on earth, one consideration would be a review of how it affected people who weren't so far removed from it as we have become.

Do you have actual historical evidence of any of that happening?

 

[David1967]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

Didn't you believe this a few weeks ago? During one of your Christian incarnations?