How can you literally believe...

[viole]

I assume you didn't see that this was an excerpt from a man named John Martignoni; not me. But, in so being, I whole-heartily agree with him. Who's the God I believe in? The only one who ever actually both claimed and demonstrated and form of God-hood; Jesus Christ. No other religions even attempt to make either claim. Buddha said; "I have found a way, let me show you." And Mohammed said; "I am merely a messenger." But Jesus said; "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life." Pretty bold claim there, I don't hear anyone else in any other religions making it. Also, He proved his God-hood through His miracles and Resurrection. If you would like to see the argument I made for said Resurrection, look back a page or so. And know this; just because there are alot of ideas if God, doesn't mean that He does not in fact exist. On the contrary, it only helps prove his existence, because it shows how humanity has an innate idea of God imbedded within us that we seek validation for.

Do you have enough evidence about the God-like nature of Jesus, as opposed to the god-like nature of, say, Apollo, that would make any other arguments for the existence of god, like design, causality of the universe, cosmology, etc. completely superflous?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Do you have enough evidence about the God-like nature of Jesus, as opposed to the god-like nature of, say, Apollo, that would make any other arguments for the existence of god, like design, causality of the universe, cosmology, etc. completely superflous?

Ciao

- viole

Actually yes, I do. Before I present it, I would like to state that there is not nearly enough evidence on the side of any other ideas of God, to take them seriously, I'm curious as to why you would think there is. And I thought I already proved the God-hood of Christ, through my points and argument for the resurrection that your conveniently avoiding.


http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Also, I could copy paste my evidence, but I've done enough of that for now. Unless you want me to.

 

[SoldierofChrist]

I'm gonna go for awhile, I'll be back a bit later.

 

[viole]

Actually yes, I do. Before I present it, I would like to state that there is not nearly enough evidence on the side of any other ideas of God, to take them seriously, I'm curious as to why you would think there is. And I thought I already proved the God-hood of Christ, through my points and argument for the resurrection that your conveniently avoiding.


http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm

I ask because many of your co-believers like to venture into very complicated phylosophical and cosmological arguments to prove the existence of God. Which is puzzling if the supernatural events of their god are sufficient to justify their faith.

What point of the resurrection am I avoiding? Do you have proof that a dead man resurrected?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SoldierofChrist]

As I said, the argument for the resurrection was made about a page or so back. I don't really want to copy paste it again to be honest. And how would different opinions on the existence of God disprove the main idea of His existence?

 

[viole]

Also, I could copy paste my evidence, but I've done enough of that for now. Unless you want me to.

You remind me of Fermat and his last theorem.

Ciao

- viole

 

[SoldierofChrist]

I dont follow. What does that mean? An insult I'm guessing.

 

[viole]

As I said, the argument for the resurrection was made about a page or so back. I don't really want to copy paste it again to be honest. And how would different opinions on the existence of God disprove the main idea of His existence?

They don't. And I expect you do not believe in a general idea. So, they undermine any justification for any particular faith. From Zeus to Allah, going through Jesus and Thor. Not to speak of all the possible gods that our imagination has not created yet. As long as you cannot prove that your God's miracles are true and the ones of the competition are false, there is no way to justify your faith, even if a God existed.

i expect that you will find this pretty challenging.

Ciao

- viole

 

[SoldierofChrist]

It's simple, the biggest difference between my religion and others, is evidence. That, I have provided.

 

[SoldierofChrist]

They don't. And I expect you do not believe in a general idea. So, they undermine any justification for any particular faith. From Zeus to Allah, going through Jesus and Thor. Not to speak of all the possible gods that our imagination has not created yet. As long as you cannot prove that your God's miracles are true and the ones of the competition are false, there is no way to justify your faith, even if a God existed.

i expect that you will find this pretty challenging.

Ciao

- viole

As I've said before, just because there are multiple ideas of God, it doesn't mean that he doesn't exist, I don't understand why your still pushing that argument.


I find it humorous, how your completely avoiding the arguments that I made for the Resurrection a couple pages back, along with the excerpt from John Martignoni as well. Also, I believe what the Catholic Church teaches on the existence of God, so yes, I do have a "General idea". If you want to see what exactly I believe about Him, check out John Martignoni's excerpt again, read it all the way through this time.



I have a few questions I'd like to ask you; Can you give me reason to believe in man-made god's like Apollo or Zeus? I assume not. Can you provide any proof and evidence, in the form of data, facts or arguments, that Atheism is reliable or rational? I assume not. Can you say infallibly, with your very limited knowledge, that God does NOT exist? I assume not. That is a claim that would require a plethora of evidence to sustain it, at least the evidence for the opposite side is overwhelmingly obvious. And so I challenge you; disassemble all the arguments I've made, and erect new ones in their place. Can you do that? I assume not.


Here's your homework for the night, enjoy!

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

www.westarkchurchofchrist.org


Anyone who ignores the overwhelming evidence in support of Christianity, is a fool to choose other religions. Do you feel the same way? I assume you now do.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

.The canon is not written by the disciples themselves or by ANYBODY who knew either them or Christ - that IS impossible for as proved already, the canon does not even exist until near 400 years after they have all doed....

That's both untrue and illogical.

The gospels of Matthew, Luke, and Mark all record that Jesus said the Jewish temple in Jerusalem would be completely destroyed; that "there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." And in 70 AD, the temple was destroyed in the Siege of Jerusalem just as completely as Jesus said it would be.

So we know that Jesus foretold this from the gospels of Mathew, Mark, and Luke, But we know when and how it eventually happened only from history. These gospels do not say when or how it happened because they were all written before 70 AD.

And when Luke wrote Acts of the Apostles later, he covered the history of the early Church beginning after Christ's ascension, but did not include anything about the destruction of Jerusalem in that book either because it still had not yet happened. He covered the martyrdom of Saint Stephen, a deacon, and the apostle James, son of Zebedee, but did not mention the martyrdom of Saint Peter in 65 AD or Saint Paul in 64 AD or Saint James, son of Alphaeus in 62 AD because they were all still living when he finished writing the Book of Acts. Saint Luke also did not mention the infamous persecution of Christians by Emperor Nero in 64 AD, which is certainly another major event in early Christian history that he would have included.

The Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles were written prior to 62 AD.

And It is generally believed that the Gospel of Saint John was written between 50 and maybe 90 AD, He lived until around the year 100. There has been a lot of debate about his gospel, initiated by scholars who want to argue in one way or another that saint John is not truly the author. There has been no decisive argument against its authenticity, but there is a definitive argument for it.

In around 180 AD, Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, Church Father, and writer, stated that Saint John the Apostle is the author of the fourth gospel, and that he wrote it while he was living at Ephesus in Asia. Saint Irenaeus said that he had learned this from his teacher, Saint Polycarp, who was a disciple of Saint John.

 

[Coder]

Hi,

Anyone who ignores the overwhelming evidence of Christianity,

There's no "evidence" - it's a religion. No one can claim that their Scriptures are authored by God and then point to their Scriptures to support it. It's circular reasoning. Anyone can write anything and say it's from God and even write that it's from God. People were claiming to be "gods"/"divine" in the Empire at the time (not referring specifically to Jesus here, just speaking in general about the environment).

It seems that much of what is marveled at in the Christian Scriptures, people being raised from the dead, miracles, and wisdom, are also found in the Hebrew Scriptures and other religious writings. However, Judaism now seems to take a back seat and there's no marveling at the miracles of Elijah or Elisha! Christians are impressed by Christian Scriptures and they wonder why Jews aren't - because much of it is already in the Hebrew Scriptures.

How many Jews in Rome resisted (at great cost) pre-Christian Roman pagan religion? Is there talk of that as sign that their religion is the one true faith?

What kind of "truth" has to destroy pagan temples once it becomes the state religion (post-Constantine)? Does the "truth" have to use force? Did the elements in pagan religion expose how much was now transferred (with new meaning) to early Roman Christianity? Isn't it the beauty and power of truth that it speaks for itself? Doesn't Christianity believe in freedom of religion? Why wasn't the Jewish Temple that was previously destroyed, rebuilt out of Christian love once Christianity became the state religion?

I know that the Catholic Church has done much good and still does and love is taught. Why is there such an assumption that this was not already present in Judaism? Christianity claims to be grafted onto the Jewish vine.

Do you know that the Roman Emperor had the title "son of god" and that Jupiter (father 'pater' in the sky) was son of the god Saturn and that there were prevalent beliefs in father-son gods and gods who impregnated human women and trinities of gods including Roman Capitoline Triad? All that Christianity has in common with this is a coincidence? And you're talking about ignoring evidence. Study Roman-pagan religion.

Still standing today (81AD).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_Titus#Inscription
"Senatus Populusque Romanus divo Tito divi Vespasiani filio Vespasiano Augusto"
"The Roman Senate and People (dedicate this) to the divine Titus Vespasianus Augustus, son of the divine Vespasian."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)#Roman
Africanus - "son of Jupiter" (son of the father in the sky). ...ascended to Heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)#Divus_Julius
"Caesar had personal ties to the gods, both by descent and by office. He was descended from Aeneas and his mother Venus"
"...the special priest of Jupiter" (sky father)
"Caesar had become pontifex maximus, the chief priest of Rome."

 

[Coder]

The gospels of Matthew, Luke, and Mark all record that Jesus said the Jewish temple in Jerusalem would be completely destroyed; that "there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." And in 70 AD, the temple was destroyed in the Siege of Jerusalem just as completely as Jesus said it would be.

The earliest known Gospel manuscripts average about 200AD with the one earliest being 150AD. This was 80 years after the fact. It has been proposed that this wasn't a prophecy but was based on knowledge that it had already happened and that Jesus is recorded as prophecying it. An example like this raises more questions about Christianity (to some, including me).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Coder, Since you are seeking, what would you think about the idea of going to an adoration chapel and praying before the Blessed Sacrament for understanding? Would you expect it to be uncomfortable? would you see it as a waste of time? Would you see it as a nothing-lost-in-trying thing?

Not my business, of course, so ignore this post if you want. I'm just curious.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi,

There's no "evidence" - it's a religion. No one can claim that their Scriptures are authored by God and then point to their Scriptures to support it. It's circular reasoning. Anyone can write anything and say it's from God and even write that it's from God. People were claiming to be "gods" all over the Empire at the time.

It seems that much of what is marveled at in the Christian Scriptures, people being raised from the dead, miracles, and wisdom, are also found in the Hebrew Scriptures and other religious writings. However, Judaism now seems to take a back seat and there's no marveling at the miracles of Elijah or Elisha! Christians are impressed by Christian Scriptures and they wonder why Jews aren't - because much of it is already in the Hebrew Scriptures.

How many Jews in Rome resisted (at great cost) pre-Christian Roman pagan religion? Is there talk of that as sign that their religion is the one true faith?

What kind of "truth" has to destroy pagan temples once it becomes the state religion (post-Constantine)? Does the "truth" have to use force? Did the elements in pagan religion expose how much was now transferred (with new meaning) to early Roman Christianity? Isn't it the beauty and power of truth that it speaks for itself? Doesn't Christianity believe in freedom of religion? Why wasn't the Jewish Temple that was previously destroyed, rebuilt out of Christian love once Christianity became the state religion?

I look at Christianity in the early Roman Empire for evidence and I see Constantine had family members executed (not judging him), I see fighting (even killing?) for the papacy, I see centuries of disrespect of Jewish people.

I know that the Catholic Church has done much good and still does and love is taught. Why is there such an assumption that this was not already present in Judaism? Christianity claims to be grafted onto the Jewish vine.

Do you know that the Roman Emperor had the title "son of god" and that Jupiter (father 'pater' in the sky) was son of the god Saturn and that there were prevalent beliefs in father-son gods and gods who impregnated human women and trinities of gods including Roman Capitoline Triad? All that Christianity has in common with this is a coincidence? And you're talking about ignoring evidence. Study Roman-pagan religion.

Still standing today (81AD).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_of_Titus#Inscription
"Senatus Populusque Romanus divo Tito divi Vespasiani filio Vespasiano Augusto"
"The Roman Senate and People (dedicate this) to the divine Titus Vespasianus Augustus, son of the divine Vespasian."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)#Roman
Africanus - "son of Jupiter" (son of the father in the sky). ...ascended to Heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)#Divus_Julius
"Caesar had personal ties to the gods, both by descent and by office. He was descended from Aeneas and his mother Venus"
"...the special priest of Jupiter" (sky father)
"Caesar had become pontifex maximus, the chief priest of Rome."

Except that what you are calling 'father', your equation, is actually who Jesus calls father; hence, not Jupiter.
This is just one configurational error you have made in your presentation/s/.

If you are actually a /religious Christian, then this should should be obvious to you, ie the 'kings' so forth, are not the same as Jesus. Jesus has one 'father', //trinity,
There is no way to configure the equation, to where Jupiter matches the Father, in Judaic belief.
Add to that, the actual beliefs of Constantine, and your theorem makes even less sense.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

ForeverCatholic;

The gospels of Matthew, Luke, and Mark all record that Jesus said the Jewish temple in Jerusalem would be completely destroyed; that "there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." And in 70 AD, the temple was destroyed in the Siege of Jerusalem just as completely as Jesus said it would be.

So WHAT..????.......I have already PROVED to you that it is NOT the disciples themselves writing - just go READ them and see it clearly - I explained it step by logical step to help you out....And look some more -I have also already PROVED that those canon books are literally "CUT N PASTE" cobbled together and edited from over 1000 PRE EXISTANT TEXTS !! I hate to keep pointing out the obvius to you, but look - your canon is taken FROM all those others, and it is THOSE ORIGINALS that contain the truth and your canon version is just a TWISTING of that truth to suit church prurpose....

Now, you clearly understand the English language, its structure and usage - so please GO READ THE CANON GOSPELS PROPERLY and you will see undeniably it is not the disciple writing in ANY of them...The words speak for themselves and show us that clear truth...They ARE written AFTER THE FACTS and so they can obviously show anything the church bloody well wants you to believe !!! Wise UP !!!

So we know that Jesus foretold this from the gospels of Mathew, Mark, and Luke, But we know when and how it eventually happened only from history. These gospels do not say when or how it happened because they were all written before 70 AD.

No my friend - look - it was the ROMANS who destroyed the temple yes..?...And it is the ROMANS who are now manufacturing these canon books yes..?...>So understand then they are not going to admit remind and draw attention to their CRIMES against the Hebrew nation are they..?...Work it out....try to appraciate the real world situation and the POLOTICS that drive all this because the motivation here is clearly stated and it is a definate issue of CIVIL UNREST and crowd control so obviously they are not going to remind them that THEY destroyed their most Holy site and thus antagonsie them further !!!

The rest..??.....lol - as you say - IT IS GENERALLY BELIEVED - by those WITHIN the religion - and that says it all really..lol.....

BUT - those without that BIAS have looked at all this truthfully - and have concluded beyond any doubt whatsoever that the disciples themselves are NOT WRITING in the canon.....What cant speak can not tell lies either - so as said - go read them PROPERLY and see that admission there in the last paragraph of each canon gospel it will TELL YOU CLEARLY THAT IT IS NOT THE DISCIPLE !!!

Just FYI - the eldest COMPLETE and ORIGINAL gospel ANYWHERE - is THOMAS from just 70ad, verified by all sources - and that ORIGINAL gospel contains around 80% of ALL the sayings and statements that Christ is shown to make in the "canon versions"...Your canon is based entirely on Thomas and the other ORIGINAL gospels and is manufactured FROM them some 340 years LATER - well after all the disciples have died, most MURDERED by your church - and THIS is I remind you (all) FULLY ADMITTED BY THE CATHOLIC AUTHORITY !!!


Now the rest - miracles and "other gods"..??....OBVIOUS - Christ is the ONLY ONE who speaks of a SOURCE for Creation...not Yhvh - again read genesis PROPERLY and we see for sure that certain things ALREADY EXIST HERE even before that "god" does anything at all - already there is "water" here and there is "a firmanant" that will be divided - and there is a BARREN unformed Earth even BEFORE that so called god utters a word of creation itself still THESE THINGS EXIST and are NOT stated as being caused by Yhvh at all !!!

CHRIST ALONE - explains the true origin of it all - from a time and place where literally NOTHING EXISTS - from my Fathers very first stirring MIND and Self aware "thought"..HE ALONE knows the truth He said emphatically !!! And of course He EXPLAINS IT ALL in step by step detail - ORIGINAL gospel of John... The god here is a CREATED BEING just like You and I and is NOT a legitimate Divine deity at all..It is an ANGEL !! It is PLACED HERE in this CREATED REALM - almost like a PRISON for it - and THIS is why those things ALREADY EXIST as the bible genesis account starts !!!

ONLY CHRIST gives the truth and fully explains all those bible inconsistancies and outright lies and deception..Sorry to be blunt - but the bible IS A FRAUD - wrong god - not Our Father as Christ reveals Him - and the new testamant is just a twisiting of truth to keep this fact secret and unnoticed...!!! HE ALONE performed MIRACLES that NO priest of Yhvh or ANY other so called god have EVER been abloe to match - and this is why HIS legacy remains when all those others are forgotten....HE ALONE - CAN do such things - as HE ALONE - is from that LEGITIMATE SOURCE of Creation itself - the priesthood of Yhvh simply COULD NOT DO THE THINGS HE ALONE DID - and so when they realised HIS truth - wrong god - they MURDERED HIM to silence His threat and twisted all this to suit their own agenda....That agenda has ALWAYS been DOMINATION and control - and the invetntion of the catholic religion and the manufacturing of your bible canon are all means to stamp that authority and thus ensure you remain fully dominated and suberviant to them always....

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I have already PROVED to you that it is NOT the disciples themselves writing

The only thing you have proved to me is that you don't accept the validity or truth of the New Testament. Gnosticism from the very beginning has been all about arguing that Christ's message to the world was misrepresented by the Church, right?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

How can you believe things like a man coming back from the dead, bringing a corpse back to life, walking on water, instantly healing the sick and disabled, changing the weather, ascending to heaven (did he float up into the air or what?), etc. literally happened, as historical events?

Seriously. This perplexes me. If someone was literally doing that stuff, it would be the biggest thing in the history of the world. Corpses coming back to life and walking around! But the only writings about are mythological writings from Christians, decades later at best. No one else noticed? Everyone just forgot? That's just irrational. If you make the claims that those things literally happened, I would expect some rather amazing evidence. But, we have nothing. What's going on here?

Now, if you take these things as metaphor or otherwise non-literally, that's fine, but this thread isn't directed towards that crowd.

Would the OP be okay with answering their own question?

 

[Coder]

Hi Folks..

...it is not the disciple writing...

No my friend - look - it was the ROMANS who destroyed the temple yes?...try to appreciate the real world situation and the POLITICS...

...issue of CIVIL UNREST and crowd control...

Agree. Also Romans were more religious in their own way and were more superstitious about religious unity and appeasing the "gods" for blessings/success/victories than most people probably realize: "In this sign, you shall 'conquer' ".