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How can you literally believe...

And if these arguments still don't convince you, just read this one:



Pascal's Wager

Suppose you, the reader, still feel that all of these arguments are inconclusive. There is another, different kind of argument left. It has come to be known as Pascal's Wager. We mention it here and adapt it for our purposes, not because it is a proof for the existence of God, but because it can help us in our search for God in the absence of such proof.

As originally proposed by Pascal, the Wager assumes that logical reasoning by itself cannot decide for or against the existence of God; there seem to be good reasons on both sides. Now since reason cannot decide for sure, and since the question is of such importance that we must decide somehow, then we must "wager" if we cannot prove. And so we are asked: Where are you going to place your bet?

If you place it with God, you lose nothing, even if it turns out that God does not exist. But if you place it against God, and you are wrong and God does exist, you lose everything: God, eternity, heaven, infinite gain. "Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything, if you lose, you lose nothing."

Consider the following diagram:



The vertical lines represent correct beliefs, the diagonals represent incorrect beliefs. Let us compare the diagonals. Suppose God does not exist and I believe in him. In that case, what awaits me after death is not eternal life but, most likely, eternal nonexistence. But now take the other diagonal: God, my Creator and the source of all good, does exist; but I do not believe in him. He offers me his love and his life, and I reject it. There are answers to my greatest questions, there is fulfillment of my deepest desires; but I decide to spurn it all. In that case, I lose (or at least seriously risk losing) everything.

The Wager can seem offensively venal and purely selfish. But it can be reformulated to appeal to a higher moral motive: If there is a God of infinite goodness, and he justly deserves my allegiance and faith, I risk doing the greatest injustice by not acknowledging him.

The Wager cannot—or should not—coerce belief. But it can be an incentive for us to search for God, to study and restudy the arguments that seek to show that there is Something—or Someone—who is the ultimate explanation of the universe and of my life. It could at lease motivate "The Prayer of the Skeptic": "God, I don't know whether you exist or not, but if you do, please show me who you are."

Pascal says that there are three kinds of people: those who have sought God and found him, those who are seeking and have not yet found, and those who neither seek nor find. The first are reasonable and happy, the second are reasonable and unhappy, the third are both unreasonable and unhappy. If the Wager stimulates us at least to seek, then it will at least stimulate us to be reasonable. And if the promise Jesus makes is true, all who seek will find (Mt 7:7-8), and thus will be happy.


Questions for Discussion

Why might someone think that the whole question of this chapter, whether God's existence can be proved, is trivial, unimportant, distracting or wrongheaded? How might such a person's argument(s) be answered?Could there be an argument for God's existence that does not fit into either of the two categories here, cosmological (external) or psychological (internal)?How psychologically forceful and how psychologically impotent is a valid argument for God's existence to an atheist? What does the answer to that question depend on? (There are many answers to this question; mention as many as you can. Which do you think is the most important one?)How can anything be "outside" the universe if "the universe" = "everything in space and time and matter?" What is meant by "outside" here? Can you give any analogy or parallel situation where a term is used like this?Why are there more than twenty arguments for and only one against God (the problem of evil)? (See chap. 6.)What commonsense meaning of cause do these cosmological arguments use (especially 2)? What alternative meanings of cause have some philosophers preferred? How do they change or invalidate the cosmological argument(s)? How could these alternatives be refuted? (Hume's is the most famous.)Does the answer to question 2 after argument 2 prove that God is creating the world right now?Would alternative theories of time change or invalidate any of the cosmological arguments?Does the simple answer to question 1 after argument 4 refute subjectivism? If not, where is the error in it? If so, why are there so many subjectivists?Why is the design argument the most popular?What is the relation between intelligibility and intelligence? Are intelligibility, design and order interchangeable concepts?Isn't there a tiny chance that the universe just happened by chance? A quintillion monkeys typing for a quintillion years will eventually produce Hamlet by chance. Couldn't this book have been caused by an explosion in a print factory?Regarding argument 10, how do we know the universe is not conscious or aware?Does the answer to question 3 of argument 6 prove God is a person?Sartre wrote: "There can be no eternal truth because there is no eternal Consciousness to think it." What is the implied premise of his argument and of proof 11?Does argument 12 presuppose "innate ideas"? If not, how and when did the idea of God get into our minds?Why is it that you can tell a lot about a philosopher's metaphysics by knowing whether or not he or she accepts the ontological argument? What do Anselm, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz and Hegel have in common? What doctrine of Thomistic metaphysics enables Thomas to criticize Anselm's argument?Can you refute the modal and possible worlds versions of the ontological argument?Can an atheist believe in real moral obligation (argument 14)? If so, how? Do most atheists believe in real moral obligation?Is the argument from conscience any stronger if you admit objective moral laws?How would you formulate the relationship between religion and morality? Between God and morality?Does everyone have the desire mentioned in premise 2 of argument 16? If so, must atheists suppress and ignore it?Would nominalists be able to escape argument 16? (C.f., question 1.)Can you formulate argument 17 logically?Why is religious experience any more of an argument for the real existence of God than any common delusion, illusion, fantasy or dream for its object? Are we arguing here from idea to reality, as in the ontological argument?Why is the common consent argument hardly ever used today, whereas it was very popular in the past?Is Pascal's Wager dishonest? Why or why not? Read Pascal's version of it in the Pensees; what do you find there that is significant that is not included here?Do you know of, or can you imagine, any other argument for God's existence?Which of these twenty arguments do you find the most powerful?How would an atheist answer each one of these twenty arguments? (Remember, there are only three ways of answering any argument.)
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
"God of the Gaps" huh? So your saying that the universe came into existence by itself on its own power, in a very particular order where life is laser pointed to thrive on earth, and was a product of complete and utter chance?
No.
I am not saying that.

The nearest thing to that, that I am saying, is that when the honest and correct answer is "I don't know " replacing that with "God did it " is not honest or correct. It's just religion in action.
Tom
 
No.
I am not saying that.

The nearest thing to that, that I am saying, is that when the honest and correct answer is "I don't know " replacing that with "God did it " is not honest or correct. It's just religion in action.
Tom

Ok, except I'm not just blindly saying "Well...God did it right? Doyyyyy!!! I don't know anything of what I'm talking about hehehe..." Maybe that's a little over the top, but you get the point. I gave logical reasons and 20 arguments.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Ok, except I'm not just blindly saying "Well...God did it right? Doyyyyy!!! I don't know anything of what I'm talking about hehehe..." Maybe that's a little over the top, but you get the point. I gave logical reasons and 20 arguments.
No you didn't.
The arguments might be new to you but they are not to me.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Well then, if you don't like the arguments, then look towards the one called Pascal's Wager that I recently posted. That really has an impact.
It is not whether I like them or not. It's that I've heard them all before.

Take your claim that the Gospels can't be legends and fiction because they're too close to the time of Jesus. That just isn't true. You have no way of knowing who knew about their existence, much less their content, until after the diaspora. By then, there would be no way to judge the accuracy.
Seriously, I've heard them all before and know enough to dismiss them.
Tom
 
It is not whether I like them or not. It's that I've heard them all before.

Take your claim that the Gospels can't be legends and fiction because they're too close to the time of Jesus. That just isn't true. You have no way of knowing who knew about their existence, much less their content, until after the diaspora. By then, there would be no way to judge the accuracy.
Seriously, I've heard them all before and know enough to dismiss them.
Tom


Well, I see that your very convinced in your beliefs. I'm going to search for something real quick, and get back to you.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
This is a pretty interesting little clip about the Resurrection:


Is there a transcript?
I am old. I struggle along without data speeds that do video on my phone.
And I don't like video for anything important anyway. I like text, that I can reread parts of if I am not sure I understand. Instead of it all whizzing past and being distracted by background imagery.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Well, I see that your very convinced in your beliefs. I'm going to search for something real quick, and get back to you.
Because my beliefs are based on information, mostly. I have Faith based beliefs, but I know that they are based on what I prefer to believe, instead of data. So they're different from what I know.
Tom
 
Oh, sorry about that. Let me translate the message. Basically what he said was, the greatest proof of the Resurrection is the Church. There were many people who claimed to be the Messiah, and had a following similar to Jesus, but when they were killed in a similar way, the following that they had died out, and they were forgotten. That's not the case with Jesus though. He had a group of disciples, that went EVERYWHERE preaching and teaching, enduring hardships and gruesome martyrdoms. All because He truly was (and is) who He said He was. Otherwise, His following would have died out, just like all the others. :)
 
Because my beliefs are based on information, mostly. I have Faith based beliefs, but I know that they are based on what I prefer to believe, instead of data. So they're different from what I know.
Tom


Understood. How are you doing tonight anyways? I watched Christmas Vacation with my family earlier haha. What about you?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Understood. How are you doing tonight anyways? I watched Christmas Vacation with my family earlier haha. What about you?
I'm good. Quiet night at the old homestead.
I was at my mother-in-law's the other evening. We watched a favorite of mine, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. The claymation one from a hundred years ago. I love that one.
Tom
 
I'm good. Quiet night at the old homestead.
I was at my mother-in-law's the other evening. We watched a favorite of mine, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. The claymation one from a hundred years ago. I love that one.
Tom


Sounds like a cozy Christmas haha. And yeah man, that old version of Rudolph is the best lol. We have the anniversary edition of it. It has that special Christmas feel to it that no other movie has. Kind of like something you'd watch late night on Christmas Eve or something, with the snow gently drifting down outside your rustic cabin and the cold cutting right through the frosted glass. But fear not! You came prepared! With a small but potent fire crackling away in your fireplace and a cup of hot coco! And a blanket just in case :)
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
Thats the opening verse of Mark.. Things to note then - there is NO AUTHOR STATED...It does NOT say it is Mark writing does it..??...And that applies as said to ALL the canon version - NO AUTHORS CLAIM THEIR BOOKS !!! It does not even state who is writing does it..??...IT IS NOT MARK WRITING - not at all, as Im about to prove to you using the canon version itself ....This person writing here is an unknown scholar - one of Eusibius team of scholars...It doesnt even pretend to be Mark...lol.....He does NOT c,lain it ANYWHERE, and all the way through it is written in the 3rd person perspective as if the author speaksof SOMEONE ELSE - and then right at the end we see clear admission it is not Mark or ANY disciple writing ...LOOK at the last paragraph :

The writer here is NOT AMONG THE DISCIPLES !! he says THEY went out to preach as instructed...NOT I - the writer does not say "I went out as instructed" - does he..?...NO - but clearly -THEY the disciples went preaching as it says but undeniably this author writing this account here DID NOT go with them, and that is because this writer is NOT one of the disciples !!! Similarly, it says the Lord worked with THEM - but again it does not say the Lord worked with "me" - does it..??...So again we see THIS writer was not even among the group that the Lord "worked with" - and again this is clearly because this writer here is NOT ONE OF THE DISCIPLES and by his own words all the way through we see it clearly and undeniably....The writer here does not even claim to be Mark at all - at no place - and yet your church authority tries to pass this off as authentic first hand account which it clearly is NOT and that is beyond logical dispute....The other three canon versions will only strengthen my position and show us yet more undeniable logical proof....Lets continue then - Mark out the way, NOT written by Mark at all but written by an UNKNOWN AUTHOR clearly stated the author was NOT a disciple - how about LUKE..??..Lets see....

This author also is clearly NOT the disciple Luke that it is claimed to be....Clearly admitted - follow the logic - the things recorded here have been PASSED DOWN to the author - means for sure beyond question this author is not the ORIGINAL giver of this narrative but is merely repeating things he has been told by others !! THIS AUTHOR is NOT an eye witness at all to either Christ or disciple - clearly stated and undeniable..That is because again THIS author here is another scribe from Eusibius team and this canon version is being manufactured here - he is ACTUALLY writing here - like 350 years AFTER the events - hence the author here says explicitly this has been "handed down" to him.....Do try to let it sink in - and perhaps admit finally - you have been fully deceived by your "catholic authority".... see yet another clear admission at the END of this canon version also - look :

A disciple is a someone who is a follower of a person with whom he/she studies. The apostles were among Christ’s disciples also, but they were the chosen few who were given authority that the others were not given, and then sent forth to teach all nations, etc.

Saint Mark was likely a disciple of Jesus, and he was certainly a disciple of Saint Peter, but he was not an apostle. He was not among the “they” you are referring to, which is why he didn’t claim to be.

And it has already been made entirely obvious that Saint Luke (a disciple of Saint Paul) wrote both his Gospel and Acts of the Apostles prior to 62 AD, but you just continue to talk about “proof” that what actually happened did not happen and what never happened is what did happen. The proof you have offered is not even a reasonable plausibility.

OH PLEASE !! THINK about what you are saying !!! Logical..??...I will show you why it is indeed fully logical ina moment..First though -another logical question - lets see -the "messiah" as you call Him - comes to Earth - and the ALREADY established religious regime - MURDERS HIM - even though SUPPOSEDY - they all "play for the same team" lol.....Wanna discuss LOGIC still..??...lol... .WHERE is the logic in that REAL WORLD EVENT ..???... it HAPPENED didnt it..?...The established church - ESTABLISHED PRIESTHOOD - established "god" - DID IN FACT BLATANTLY BETRAY AND MURDER HIM - didnt they..??..
The Pharisees who rejected him as the Son of God had him arrested and took him to Pontius Pilate, demanding that he be crucified. And you translate that to "the established church - ESTABLISHED PRIESTHOOD - established god - DID IN FACT BLATANTLY BETRAY AND MURDER HIM," which is so all over the place, it's neither an accurate picture of Judaism nor Christianity. And it makes no point at all against the Church that Christ established.

They are ENEMISES right from the start - take the religious blinkers off - quit being so naive ;) And look closely - CHRIST - NEVER established any church at all - MAN DID in HIS NAME !!!
According to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, he did. According to you, he did not. Consider that Christendom is right and you are wrong.

you lot MUST come to HATE your parents He said - yes..?? ;)
You're talking about Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. In the original, Greek the word that was translated to "hate" in this verse means to love less than. A confusing translation.

Christ ACTUALLY told people to shun and avoid the religion entirely
?????

Your whole argument is a systematic rejection of all things historical and biblical that stand in the way of supporting heretical beliefs. Don’t you find it tedious always having to explain away one bit of scripture after another after another? Accepting the truth as given by God is so much easier than trying to construct your own. You should give it a try. There will be no loose ends to deal with, and no dead ends either.

We're not getting anywhere with these exchanges for now, so let's give it a break. Meanwhile,I'll pray for your enlightenment.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
another non-religious person may go on to slay because he is not constrained by religious values against killing.
You don't need religion to know not to kill people. Typically, in nearly all situations, those who don't see anything wrong with killing are said to have some sort of mental illness.
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
I think people can believe this stuff because...

a) They want to believe
b) They have grown up with these concepts
c) They think these things actually happened
d) They think these things can happen
e) They never questioned it
 
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