How can you tell if a Prophet is true?

[CG Didymus]

They use mindfulness today to help heal those with mental trauma so the Buddha’s teaching on mindfulness and meditation are very much alive and of great value to us all.

Now, I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that a person could eventually, after many rebirths, attain enlightenment like the Buddha. Now, the problem is... Baha'is say that the Buddha was a "manifestation of God" and not like ordinary humans. So, how do Baha'is explain that? For Baha'is is this thing about enlightenment interpreted differently?

 

[danieldemol]

Nope. I said "why".

Because you don't know the consequences of something in 500 years or a millennium. That's why.

Cheers.

But if you don't know the consequences how can you claim it failed in 500 years or a millennium?

It could be that circumstances remain sufficiently the same for millennium and thus a person was justified in acting accordance to the circumstances they knew in my view.

Also it would be a merciless God to judge people according to what they couldn't know in my view.

 

[sayak83]

Actually, I never personally met Sathya Sai Baba. I was at a gathering of a few thousand people and he just walked between the crowd of people without speaking a word, at a distance of at least a couple of hundred yards from me. He is not exactly a 'beauty' to look at and he did not look at me either. So, I am not sure what 'charisma' was involved. Clearly you have not had the experience of being in the presence of such a person.

It's a well known effect in psychology that many people have. Has little to do with spiritual attainment.
Charisma: The power to rule hearts and minds | Psychologs Magazine | Mental Health Magazine | Psychology Magazine | Self-Help Magazine

 

[sayak83]

But if you don't know the consequences how can you claim it failed in 500 years or a millennium?

It could be that circumstances remain sufficiently the same for millennium and thus a person was justified in acting accordance to the circumstances they knew in my view.

Also it would be a merciless God to judge people according to what they couldn't know in my view.

The problem is different. Consequentialism judges the actions of a person based on what he or she could reasonably know about the effect of their actions on others based on their abilities. If am action had a harmful effect but he/she could not have known about it, that effect is not considered as relevant in deciding the moral quality of that action.

 

[Sargonski]

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians around 53/4 CE
That was before the Gospel of Mark (according to commonly accepted dating)

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that he was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
1 Corinthians 15: 3-7

EDIT: Paul claims to have encountered Christ, seeing a bright light and hearing a voice, which is not the same as the other apostles' encounters with the resurrected Jesus. This is accepted, that Paul himself did not claim to see the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. Paul's encounter with Christ happened after the ascension.

"For I passed on to you as of first importance[c] what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised[d] on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[e] then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers and sisters[f] at one time, most of whom are still alive,[g] though some have fallen asleep.[h] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time,[i] he appeared to me also"

--------------------------------

as we can see from a proper translation .. we have Jesus appearing .. akin to the appearances of virgin Mary in the Clouds .. akin to the the appearance to Paul .. a spiritual resurrection .. through and through just like the spiritual being Paul meets on the Road to Damascus .. or rather .. he hears a voice . but the meeting like at the baptism of Jesus . with divine entities in the clouds . not a corpse wandering around still with the gaping holes .. Zombie Nation style.

Seeing a bright light and hearing a voice is a spiritual encounter indeed .. not quite like having a dead corpse .. after 3 days of rotting .. which would be some nasty .. wandering around talking to people ..

So Paul .. the only non anonymous that we know of kind of for sure .. never heard of any stories of Jesus wandering aroud in the flesh appearing to people .. these are spiritual encounters ... like Paul's encounter .. see a light .. hear a voice .. virgin Mary in the Clouds .. fatama .. a sighting just as real .. to these people as to the 500 .. the stories that Paul heard ..

and of course .. "As per scripture" = the resurrected go up to heaven .. Jesus has Risen .. into the heavens .. a far better fit than his corpse has risen from the grave an is now walking around asking people to put finger in the gaping hole.

and speaking of gaping hole -- you have yet to address the problem of the first Pope .. never heard of Jesus wandering around as a corpse talking to folks .. yet being well aquainted with Pauls writings .. those actually by Paul .. not the ones written in the mid second century but attributed to Paul .. obviously Clement would have not heard of those .. not yet been written gospels of Paul.

 

[danieldemol]

The problem is different. Consequentialism judges the actions of a person based on what he or she could reasonably know about the effect of their actions on others based on their abilities. If am action had a harmful effect but he/she could not have known about it, that effect is not considered as relevant in deciding the moral quality of that action.

I believe consequentialism is a reasonable position to hold, in fact if I believed God cared about our actions I would be inclined to say that a reasonable God would be a consequentialist if it were to assume a position of judgement of our actions.

 

[Sargonski]

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians around 53/4 CE
That was before the Gospel of Mark (according to commonly accepted dating)

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that he was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
1 Corinthians 15: 3-7

EDIT: Paul claims to have encountered Christ, seeing a bright light and hearing a voice, which is not the same as the other apostles' encounters with the resurrected Jesus. This is accepted, that Paul himself did not claim to see the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. Paul's encounter with Christ happened after the ascension.

"For I passed on to you as of first importance[c] what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised[d] on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[e] then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers and sisters[f] at one time, most of whom are still alive,[g] though some have fallen asleep.[h] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time,[i] he appeared to me also"

--------------------------------

as we can see from a proper translation .. we have Jesus appearing .. akin to the appearances of virgin Mary in the Clouds .. akin to the the appearance to Paul .. a spiritual resurrection .. through and through just like the spiritual being Paul meets on the Road to Damascus .. or rather .. he hears a voice . but the meeting like at the baptism of Jesus . with divine entities in the clouds . not a corpse wandering around still with the gaping holes .. Zombie Nation style.

Seeing a bright light and hearing a voice is a spiritual encounter indeed .. not quite like having a dead corpse .. after 3 days of rotting .. which would be some nasty .. wandering around talking to people ..

So Paul .. the only non anonymous that we know of kind of for sure .. never heard of any stories of Jesus wandering aroud in the flesh appearing to people .. these are spiritual encounters ... like Paul's encounter .. see a light .. hear a voice .. virgin Mary in the Clouds .. fatama .. a sighting just as real .. to these people as to the 500 .. the stories that Paul heard ..

and of course .. "As per scripture" = the resurrected go up to heaven .. Jesus has Risen .. into the heavens .. a far better fit than his corpse has risen from the grave an is now walking around asking people to put finger in the gaping hole.

and speaking of gaping hole -- you have yet to address the problem of the first Pope .. never heard of Jesus wandering around as a corpse talking to folks .. yet being well aquainted with Pauls writings .. those actually by Paul .. not the ones written in the mid second century but attributed to Paul .. obviously Clement would have not heard of those not yet been written gospels of Paul ..

Obviously you have not done as suggested and read Clement .. here is the link and you can fast foreward to Chapter 24.

1 Clem 24.1
Let us understand, dearly beloved, how the Master continually
showeth unto us the resurrection that shall be hereafter; whereof He
made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstfruit, when He raised Him from
the dead.

First Clement: Clement of Rome

First Clement: Clement of Rome. On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

God raised his First Fruit from the dead .. raised him into heaven. Clement then goes on to try to convince the congregation that the resurrection is real .. but unfortunately knows nothing about any smoking gun. but he knows about the Pheonix in Egypt .. a bird which ressurects out of the fire .. and he gives a bunch more examples. but sorry .. no Zombie Jesus smoking gun .. which he would 100% use if he had in his arsenal. .. my guess is that Matt was written .. but like Mark .. the wandering around in the flesh stories added later .. around the time of Ignatius 110BC and the composition of John ..

 

[soulsurvivor]

It's a well known effect in psychology that many people have. Has little to do with spiritual attainment.
Charisma: The power to rule hearts and minds | Psychologs Magazine | Mental Health Magazine | Psychology Magazine | Self-Help Magazine

So, charisma can be projected to an audience of several thousand by walking past them without speaking at all or even looking at any particular person? That is a well known effect in psychology that many people have?

 

[sayak83]

So, charisma can be projected to an audience of several thousand by walking past them without speaking at all or even looking at any particular person? That is a well known effect in psychology that many people have?

Yes. Certainly. The way a person dresses, bears himself, gait, posture, way of walking...these have huge influences. A great actor on a stage can simply walk on a stage and get full attention even without saying anything. It's called stage presence. There is a lot of work on such things in psychology and humanities fields.
Charismatic Nonverbal Displays by Leaders Signal Receptivity and Formidability, and Tap Approach and Avoidance Motivational Systems - PMC

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe whatever is confirmed by God’s Manifestations.

So, a person claiming to be a manifestation that has been sent by God confirms what is the word of God? But who confirms that a person is a "manifestation" of God? Like I keep asking Baha'is... Where does it say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses were "manifestations" of God? Other than in the Baha'i writings?

Which, conveniently, makes it look like there was a progression of "manifestations"... just like Baha'i Faith say there is. It's amazing how the new Abrahamic religion interprets Scriptures of the past Abrahamic religions to make themselves look like they are the legitimate replacement.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The first question is whether these so-called God/Gods/Goddesses exist or not?
Prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis can be discussed later.
And there is nothing which gives the evidence of existence of God/Gods/Goddesses.
Therefore, the second question does not arise.
Did anyone claim to be a prophet? No. They were made/designated as being prophets by their followers.
If some one claimed to be the son/messenger/manifestation/Mahdi, they had some bug in their mind.
They were either plain frauds or at least lied.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sumadji said:
You're mixing up the unique resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Firstfruit) from the dead after three days (followed at a later time by his ascension into heaven) with the linked inference to the general resurrection of the dead (on the last day).
Paul says Christ appeared to Cephas and the others. It's your reading to say that was a vision and not a physical occurrence. The passage does not say that: in a vision
"He is risen" does not mean he is dead and gone to heaven and someone took away the body. I'm sure Clement understood that.

Aup.: Ah! You are talking of scriptures.
In Hindu scriptures, Hanuman made a two step long jump with a block of a mountain in his hand (1. Dronagiri, 2. was stopped in Ayodhya for a moment by Rama's brother otherwise it would have been a clean one-step jump) from Himalayas to Sri Lanka, a total distance of some 1,553 miles (checked the distance just now with Google Earth).

Dronagiri: Height 23,182 feet. Jai Bajrang Bali (Hail the powerful deity with limbs like steel)

 

[Sumadji]

"For I passed on to you as of first importance[c] what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised[d] on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[e] then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers and sisters[f] at one time, most of whom are still alive,[g] though some have fallen asleep.[h] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time,[i] he appeared to me also"

--------------------------------

as we can see from a proper translation .. we have Jesus appearing .. akin to the appearances of virgin Mary in the Clouds .. akin to the the appearance to Paul .. a spiritual resurrection .. through and through just like the spiritual being Paul meets on the Road to Damascus .. or rather .. he hears a voice . but the meeting like at the baptism of Jesus . with divine entities in the clouds . not a corpse wandering around still with the gaping holes .. Zombie Nation style.

Seeing a bright light and hearing a voice is a spiritual encounter indeed .. not quite like having a dead corpse .. after 3 days of rotting .. which would be some nasty .. wandering around talking to people ..

So Paul .. the only non anonymous that we know of kind of for sure .. never heard of any stories of Jesus wandering aroud in the flesh appearing to people .. these are spiritual encounters ... like Paul's encounter .. see a light .. hear a voice .. virgin Mary in the Clouds .. fatama .. a sighting just as real .. to these people as to the 500 .. the stories that Paul heard ..

and of course .. "As per scripture" = the resurrected go up to heaven .. Jesus has Risen .. into the heavens .. a far better fit than his corpse has risen from the grave an is now walking around asking people to put finger in the gaping hole.

and speaking of gaping hole -- you have yet to address the problem of the first Pope .. never heard of Jesus wandering around as a corpse talking to folks .. yet being well aquainted with Pauls writings .. those actually by Paul .. not the ones written in the mid second century but attributed to Paul .. obviously Clement would have not heard of those not yet been written gospels of Paul ..

Obviously you have not done as suggested and read Clement .. here is the link and you can fast foreward to Chapter 24.

1 Clem 24.1
Let us understand, dearly beloved, how the Master continually
showeth unto us the resurrection that shall be hereafter; whereof He
made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstfruit, when He raised Him from
the dead.

First Clement: Clement of Rome

First Clement: Clement of Rome. On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

God raised his First Fruit from the dead .. raised him into heaven. Clement then goes on to try to convince the congregation that the resurrection is real .. but unfortunately knows nothing about any smoking gun. but he knows about the Pheonix in Egypt .. a bird which ressurects out of the fire .. and he gives a bunch more examples. but sorry .. no Zombie Jesus smoking gun .. which he would 100% use if he had in his arsenal. .. my guess is that Matt was written .. but like Mark .. the wandering around in the flesh stories added later .. around the time of Ignatius 110BC and the composition of John ..

You are mixing up the unique resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ (the First Fruit), and his ascension into heaven at a later stage after Cephas and the others had seen him -- with the linked implication to the general resurrection of the dead on the last day.

Paul's passage does not say anything about a vision in the clouds. It says Christ appeared to Cephas and the others. It is your own reading to say it was a vision. The passage does not say that.

"He is risen" does not mean he is dead and gone to heaven and someone took away the body. Clement goes on to use the resurrection of Christ as a sign and assurance of the resurrection of the dead on the last day, as does Paul as 1 Corinthians 15 progresses.

So Mark, the first gospel, speaks of the resurrection; Paul the first Christian writer speaks of the resurrection even before Mark, and Clement the first Pope speaks of the resurrection.

There is also debate about an earlier dating of the Gospel of John, perhaps even before Mark, but that is another discussion.

 

[Sumadji]

@Sargonski
You keep talking about a zombie Jesus walking around in a rotting body but the implications is that the risen Christ as immortal master of the flesh is able to 'weave' or discard a physical form, to manifest and disappear at will, as master of nature. This concept is also found in Taoist and other Eastern thought

 

[firedragon]

But if you don't know the consequences how can you claim it failed in 500 years or a millennium?

Who said it failed?

 

[soulsurvivor]

Yes. Certainly. The way a person dresses, bears himself, gait, posture, way of walking...these have huge influences. A great actor on a stage can simply walk on a stage and get full attention even without saying anything. It's called stage presence. There is a lot of work on such things in psychology and humanities fields.
Charismatic Nonverbal Displays by Leaders Signal Receptivity and Formidability, and Tap Approach and Avoidance Motivational Systems - PMC

He was not on stage while walking past silently without looking at anyone (but he did speak to a few out of the several thousand, but we could not hear what he said).

But you sound very knowledgeable about the psychology of masses and of very high spiritual attainment. Have you considered becoming one of these charismatic leaders who can sway masses at a distance in silence? I think you would be much more successful than these fake actors!

 

[Sargonski]

You are mixing up the unique resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ (the First Fruit), and his ascension into heaven at a later stage after Cephas and the others had seen him -- with the linked implication to the general resurrection of the dead on the last day.

Paul's passage does not say anything about a vision in the clouds. It says Christ appeared to Cephas and the others. It is your own reading to say it was a vision. The passage does not say that.

"He is risen" does not mean he is dead and gone to heaven and someone took away the body. Clement goes on to use the resurrection of Christ as a sign and assurance of the resurrection of the dead on the last day, as does Paul as 1 Corinthians 15 progresses.

So Mark, the first gospel, speaks of the resurrection; Paul the first Christian writer speaks of the resurrection even before Mark, and Clement the first Pope speaks of the resurrection.

There is also debate about an earlier dating of the Gospel of John, perhaps even before Mark, but that is another discussion.

Not mixing up anything of the sort .. the Gospel of Mark knows nothing of any ascention .. and Clement talks nothing about it either .. reinforcing the idea that Clement knows nothing about Zombie Jesus.

It is you who is mixing things up ... attributing first fruits .. to ascention .. when there is nothing of the sort done. He is Risen means .. resurrection .. resurrection means gone to heaven .. both in the mind of the author of Mark .. and of Clement.

and and sorry .. both Mark and Clement believe that Jesus died .. and then resurrected from "THE DEAD" .. one can not Rise from the Dead if one is not dead. ?? This is getting very wonky

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, a person claiming to be a manifestation that has been sent by God confirms what is the word of God? But who confirms that a person is a "manifestation" of God? Like I keep asking Baha'is... Where does it say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses were "manifestations" of God? Other than in the Baha'i writings?

Which, conveniently, makes it look like there was a progression of "manifestations"... just like Baha'i Faith say there is. It's amazing how the new Abrahamic religion interprets Scriptures of the past Abrahamic religions to make themselves look like they are the legitimate replacement.

Manifestation or Prophet or Messenger. They are known by many names such as Educators and Enlightened Ones, Suns of Truth. These Persons for a better word came successively historically taught humanity varying concepts according to our stage of evolution. Individual teachings, then society and nation now world orientated since we have evolved to a technologically united world. All progressive.

 

[Sumadji]

Not mixing up anything of the sort .. the Gospel of Mark knows nothing of any ascention .. and Clement talks nothing about it either .. reinforcing the idea that Clement knows nothing about Zombie Jesus.

It is you who is mixing things up ... attributing first fruits .. to ascention .. when there is nothing of the sort done. He is Risen means .. resurrection .. resurrection means gone to heaven .. both in the mind of the author of Mark .. and of Clement.

and and sorry .. both Mark and Clement believe that Jesus died .. and then resurrected from "THE DEAD" .. one can not Rise from the Dead if one is not dead. ?? This is getting very wonky

If Jesus had merely died and gone to heaven (and someone took away the body), there would be no need for a three day delay before he rose. Jesus foretells his crucifixion and resurrection on the third day several times in the Gospel of Mark:

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when he had turned around and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Mark 8:31-33
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 8:31-33&version=NKJV

Then they departed from there and passed through Galilee, and he did not want anyone to know it. For he taught his disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And after he is killed, He will rise the third day.” But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask him.
Mark 9:30-32
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 9:30-32 - New King James Version

“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn him to death and deliver him to the Gentiles; and they will mock him, and scourge him, and spit on him, and kill him. And the third day he will rise again.”
Mark 10:33-34
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 10:33-34&version=NKJV

He says “But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”
Mark 14:28
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 14:28 - New King James Version

To return to Mark 16, the ending reads:

But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
Mark 16:4-8
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV

Why did he have to wait three days?

I thought we had covered this?

 

[Sargonski]

@Sargonski
You keep talking about a zombie Jesus walking around in a rotting body but the implications is that the risen Christ as immortal master of the flesh is able to 'weave' or discard a physical form, to manifest and disappear at will, as master of nature. This concept is also found in Taoist and other Eastern thought

LOOK >>>>> HERE>>>>> A corpse named Jesus was deposited into a Tomb .. how they managed to convince the Romans to let them have the corpse .. being the whole purpose of Crucifixion was to leave the corpse on the stick to horrify people .. deter would be criminals. .. but OK .. somehow they got the corpse .. a corpse that was not alive .. but dead .. Jesus having used his last breath calling out his God for forsaking him.

OK ?? <dead corpse> .. is taken and put in a cave .. which was then sealed ... 3 days later .. when some women come .. but find the tomb unsealed.. and some Man is sitting in the cave who tells them not to be afraid .. that Jesus has Risen .. to to go tell the disciples you will see him in Galilee "Just as he told you" .. implying that there was some plan to meet in Galalee ..

The women however have none of it .. think this fellow in the tomb is a quack ... They run out of the tomb "in terror and bewildermen"

8 Then[g] they went out and ran from the tomb, for terror and bewilderment had seized them.[h] And they said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

--------

Presumably this story was related to the author of Mark at a latere date . There is no "Risen" to anywhere .. the body is gone ... and some grave robber left in the tomb .. his job likely to reseal it but the women surprise him ... and like the Grinch .. and knowing Jesus .. tells the women he has been resurrected to heaven .. Whom -ever this dude was .. the women don't believe a word .. the Run away terrified and say nothing to anyone ..

Now ... from this you want us to assume that the dead corpse .. just like the Zombie movies ... wakes up and starts wandering towards Galilee.

Sorry .. what the man in the cave meant by "he is Risen" should be taken as he is resurrected .. Gone to heaven .. but it really matters not .. because the women didn't believe what he was peddling .. what ever he meant .. to them Jesus was dead .. the body was gone .. maybe he went to heaven.

Paul talks about appearances .. but this is from stories many many years after the death of Jesus .. but even then .. Paul likens these appearances to his Vision ... hearing voices in the clouds .. seeing a light .. depending on which of the 3 different versions of his encounter on the Road to Demascus .. None of which however speak to a physical resurrection .. Zombie Jesus wandering around .. Holes ands all .. cause he is a God and can do what he wants ... Fine . I am all good with eastern mysticism ..but that does not change the fact that the original version of the story does not have the corpse of Jesus wandering around talking to people. .. this is not Paul's idea of resurrection .. this not Clement's idea of resurrection .. none have heard any stories of the corpse of Jesus wandering around the earth after death .. As a corpse .. talking to people . and having them put finger in the holes.... appearing really desperate to provide a smoking gun.

Sorry ... the Zombie Zesus story is simple non existent in the gospel of Mark .. Paul does not know of any Zombie Jesus stories ... neither does Clement .. which if you has read a few lines .. can clearly see that ther is no Smoking Gun that he is aware of.