How can you tell if a Prophet is true?

[firedragon]

I do not. Nor do you.

Excellent. That's where consequentialism fails. The rest of your post is an aunt sally so obviously I will not respond to those.

Cheers.

 

[sayak83]

Excellent. That's where consequentialism fails. The rest of your post is an aunt sally so obviously I will not respond to those.

Cheers.

Why would it? Consequentialism is only about acting with awareness of consequences upto the point one is able. Why would omniscience be a criteria?
The only morally relevant question is "could he/she have known better given the situation?"

 

[soulsurvivor]

I am a little skeptical of this.
Taylor Swift has the same effect over the Swifties.

The feeling is of peace and relaxation and of being cared for/about - no excitement or passion or need to jump around.

It appears that you have not been in the presence of such a person.

 

[Sumadji]

Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

He is risen! ... He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you

That's the ending of Mark's Gospel

 

[ppp]

He is risen! ... He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you

That's the ending of Mark's Gospel

The end of the Gospel of Mark in the oldest existing copies of the text is:
Mark 16: 8 "Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid."

Don't be another Marcion

 

[Sargonski]

He is risen! ... He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you

That's the ending of Mark's Gospel

Yes .. but a spiritual resurrection kind of risen .. and not the corpse of Jesus was wandering around talking to people after. The Spirit went ahead if you like .. but it matters not what it was because the women never tell anyone about it .. which is wierd if they would have been expecting to meet Jesus in the Flesh you would think they would invite others but ..Jesus never shows up .. and they never tell anyone . Regardless, the story does not have the corpse of Jesus showing up after the death of Jesus .. there is no physical resurrection in the story .. the reader is left to wonder even about the spiritual resurrection .. but what the people of the time believe .. who do believe .. such as Paul and a whole plethera of early Christians up to Clement 96-100AD .. do not believe in the Physical Resurrection ... and even after these stories appeared in version 2 - the expanded and updated version .. and version 3 .. the further expanded and updated edition .. the people at the time .. talking mid second century many still believe that Jesus is some kind of apparition .. and nobody can agree on the nature of the divinity of Jesus at this point ..

That is the Ending of Marks Gospel -- No corpse of Jesus walking around .. no "Smoking Gun" for the resurrection .. which is why if you go and read Clement found at earlychristianwritings.com .. you will hear him trying all kinds of arguments to convince the churches that the spiritual resurrection is real .. not having the smoking gun in his arsenal .

Yes .. He is Risen up high in the sky .. and took his body with him ! but he doesn't come back down with that dirty old corpse .. cause the story ends after he is risen ..

 

[Sumadji]

Yes .. but a spiritual resurrection kind of risen .. and not the corpse of Jesus was wandering around talking to people after. The Spirit went ahead if you like .. but it matters not what it was because the women never tell anyone about it .. which is wierd if they would have been expecting to meet Jesus in the Flesh you would think they would invite others but ..Jesus never shows up .. and they never tell anyone . Regardless, the story does not have the corpse of Jesus showing up after the death of Jesus .. there is no physical resurrection in the story .. the reader is left to wonder even about the spiritual resurrection .. but what the people of the time believe .. who do believe .. such as Paul and a whole plethera of early Christians up to Clement 96-100AD .. do not believe in the Physical Resurrection ... and even after these stories appeared in version 2 - the expanded and updated version .. and version 3 .. the further expanded and updated edition .. the people at the time .. talking mid second century many still believe that Jesus is some kind of apparition .. and nobody can agree on the nature of the divinity of Jesus at this point ..

That is the Ending of Marks Gospel -- No corpse of Jesus walking around .. no "Smoking Gun" for the resurrection .. which is why if you go and read Clement found at earlychristianwritings.com .. you will hear him trying all kinds of arguments to convince the churches that the spiritual resurrection is real .. not having the smoking gun in his arsenal .

Yes .. He is Risen up high in the sky .. and took his body with him ! but he doesn't come back down with that dirty old corpse .. cause the story ends after he is risen ..

The story says they will see him in Galilee. The story says he is risen, and the body is no longer there. Nothing about risen into the sky, and someone took away the body. Risen from the dead. It says they will see him in Galilee: they will see Jesus, not the spirit of Jesus.

Jesus foretells his resurrection on the third day several times in Mark"s gospel, and also that after he has been raised he will go before them to Galilee. There are too many "coulds" in your reading, imo

The end of the Gospel of Mark in the oldest existing copies of the text is:
Mark 16: 8 "Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid."

Don't be another Marcion

I quoted the paragraph before that one

(edited)

 

[firedragon]

Why would it? Consequentialism is only about acting with awareness of consequences upto the point one is able. Why would omniscience be a criteria?

As already explained above.

 

[sayak83]

The feeling is of peace and relaxation and of being cared for/about - no excitement or passion or need to jump around.

It appears that you have not been in the presence of such a person.

I am saying it's a very common phenomenon that people get strongly emotionally influenced by a person with a certain amount of charisma whom they look up to. Energy, vibes...whatever you call it. It has very little to do with how good or bad the person is. It can be a great person like Gandhi or MLK, a neutral person like a pop star or a bad person like Hitler or Trump. Hence, that cannot be a criteria for recognising a prophet/person of God....though many religious people may feel that way.

I am not denegrating the specific religious leader who influenced you. I am making a general point and providing evidence to support it.

 

[sayak83]

As already explained above.

I am not finding your explanation then.
Why would consequentialism require you know all consequences till the end of the universe?
Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

I am not finding your explanation then.

First of all, I didn't say "omniscience" is a criteria for consequentialism. So you are strawmannirg me my friend. What I said what "where consequentialism fails".

You see mate, a pyramid scheme does not have perpetuity as a "criterion". But it fails in it. So you should never mix up these terms so arbitrarily throwing them around even though it's just an anonymous Internet forum. It's simply epistemic responsibility.

Cheers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How do you know that for sure?

I believe God is All Knowing and that the Prophets had divine and innate knowledge not acquired from human learning but directly from the Holy Spirit as in the case of Muhammad and Jesus. Their knowledge and revelation was from God not themselves. We believe in the Quran because it was revealed by God and transmitted by the Holy Spirit through Gabriel to Muhammad.

And we believe the same of Baha’u’llah and that what He revealed was also from the Holy Spirit and so true knowledge and like the Quran can be fully trusted that its Source was from God.

There are probably other passages, but for now, this particular verse from Baha’u’llah does mention that Christ had followers who were fisherman.

Moreover, call thou to mind the one who sentenced Jesus to death. He was the most learned of his age in his own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take good heed and be of them that observe the warning. (Baha’u’llah)

So we ‘know’ for sure from a written record that is available, from a Manifestation of God endowed with perfect innate infallible knowledge, that Christ had disciples who were fishermen. If one does not accept the Bible’s authenticity then there Is Baha’u’llah’s confirmation.

 

[firedragon]

Moreover, call thou to mind the one who sentenced Jesus to death. He was the most learned of his age in his own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take good heed and be of them that observe the warning. (Baha’u’llah)

So only fishermen believed in Jesus?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So only fishermen believed in Jesus?

The early disciples may have had different jobs and professions such as tax collector.

 

[sayak83]

First of all, I didn't say "omniscience" is a criteria for consequentialism. So you are strawmannirg me my friend. What I said what "where consequentialism fails".

You see mate, a pyramid scheme does not have perpetuity as a "criterion". But it fails in it. So you should never mix up these terms so arbitrarily throwing them around even though it's just an anonymous Internet forum. It's simply epistemic responsibility.

Cheers.

You are confusing epistemic moral consequentialism with ontological moral consequentialism. The former only assesses the moral value of a person's action based on what he is able to know about the consequences of his actions based of his abilities at that time. Hence there is zero requirement that a person needs to know consequences to an infinite future time for epistemic moral consequentialism to work.

 

[PureX]

There are no prophets. No one can see the future. All anyone can do is guess.

But that's not usually the point or purpose of religious prophesy. The point of it tends to be more as an object lesson. In which case the value of it is not in it's predictive accuracy, but in the truthfulness of the lesson it intends to convey. And that will depend on our personal interpretation and experiences. One man's prophet being another man's charlatan.

 

[soulsurvivor]

I am saying it's a very common phenomenon that people get strongly emotionally influenced by a person with a certain amount of charisma whom they look up to. Energy, vibes...whatever you call it. It has very little to do with how good or bad the person is. It can be a great person like Gandhi or MLK, a neutral person like a pop star or a bad person like Hitler or Trump. Hence, that cannot be a criteria for recognising a prophet/person of God....though many religious people may feel that way.

I am not denegrating the specific religious leader who influenced you. I am making a general point and providing evidence to support it.

That is OK. You just happen to be an inexperienced traveler. I have not felt anything like this with any popstar or politician or your kind of heroes.

To be more specific, I have had this feeling with exactly four people in my life - Sathya Saj Baba, Ganapathi Sachchidananda Swami, Shri Madhusudhan Sai and a fourth person who is not so well known. Two of these are still alive, so you can test it out, but I am not sure you will feel anything, The gathering with the person should not be in a noisy, boisterous atmosphere which they often are.

The feeling with the first person (Saibaba) and last person was really very strong - enough to put you in a slight trance. With the other two not as much - so you can actually tell the spiritual stature of the person by the strength of the feeling. I also have not felt this with other well know Gurus like Mata Amritananda Mai or Shri Shri Ravi Shankar whom I have also met.

I hope one day you will get the same experience, but you have to try to meet such people. They will not come to you.

 

[Sargonski]

The story says they will see him in Galilee. The story says he is risen, and the body is no longer there. Nothing about risen into the sky, and someone took away the body. Risen from the dead. It says they will see him in Galilee: they will see Jesus, not the spirit of Jesus.

Jesus foretells his resurrection on the third day several times in Mark"s gospel, and also that after he has been raised he will go before them to Galilee. There are too many "coulds" in your reading, imo

I quoted the paragraph before that one

(edited)

"nothing about risen into the sky" - "Jesus foretells is resurrection" ?? Where does Jesus say the resurrection is to Sumadji ? Answer - Heaven .. which is up there in the sky somewhere .. the location given on the first page of the book ? Page 1 .. verse 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
------

That you were not able to put 2+2 together is a function of what if might ask. Where did you think Heaven was Located .. and where did you think one goes upon resurrection ? Notice the spirit descending - descending from where ? The sky perhaps !? up there in the heavens perhaps ? the place where Jesus says we go after death.


KK so the spirit descends down from the heavens to Jesus .. so then after death where does the spirit go <up up up> .. there are no "Coulds" that Jesus believes the destination post resurrection is heaven .. all the coulds are coming from your direction ..

While there is plenty in the story about "rising into the sky" - there is nothing - no stories about Jesus's corpse wandering around after death. The women are told to go meet this risen entity in Galilee .. but Jesus never shows up .. and the women tell no one about the resurrection .. percisely because Jesus never shows up ..

You are the one with all the couds here .. "If we could only include the Long Ending of Mark" which was interpolated /added precisely because of the problem under discussion .. "Dorp" ?! The reader does not have the faintest idea where the Body went or what happens to Jesus .. other than we are told there was a resurrection "He has Risen" = God back to heaven being the most logical location in keeping with where Jesus says folks go .. which is to heaven.

At the end of the day .. we just don't know .. we are not told where Jesus is resurrected to .. just that he has been resurrected. The Question not what you think however, but what the early Christians thought .. and sorrry .. what they did not think is that there was a Zombie impersonating Jesus wandering around after his death.. and this includes Paul .. and includes presumably the vast majority of Christians up to the first Pope Clement who has never heard any stories about Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death either .. and that is a problem for your could a- would a -should a , version of the story that has no basis .. in the story. A story which says nothing about the corpse of Jesus wandering around talking to people after death.

 

[Sumadji]

The Question not what you think however, but what the early Christians thought ..

Peter, John, James the brother of Jesus, you mean? Paul the first Christian writer, who met and spoke with those apostles?

You (and others) like to muddy the water with lots of words and smoke and mirrors about the Jerusalem church. The physical resurrection of Christ was foundational to Christianity from the beginning. Of course Paul believed the physical resurrection. I don't know where you get that he did not.

Paul died around 63AD and was foundational, not incidental to the early church.

I'm not saying anyone has to believe the gospel of Mark. But it cannot be employed to dismiss the physical resurrection as you have tried to. The gospel of Mark clearly leads from Jesus's foretelling his crucifixion and resurrection, to the events and the words of the angel at the empty tomb to Mary Magdalene. The gospel of Mark does not simply end with the empty tomb and the flight of the wonen as you earlier tried earlier to portray, until I called you on it.

 

[firedragon]

The early disciples may have had different jobs and professions such as tax collector.

How do you know that for sure? Thus, you believe the Bible is God's word!!