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How can you tell if a Prophet is true?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
When Jesus walked upon the earth He was surrounded by disciples who were fishermen mostly and couldn’t read or write. So how did they know He was the Lord?

Same with most religions. The followers weren’t really educated but they seemed to be able to recognise the truth.

How is this so and why were the priests and educated class unable to recognise the Prophet?

What criteria, not using any scripture would determine whether a prophet is true or not?

This is a thread mainly for religionists to share, explain and explore how the first disciples of their religion came to know the truth without having knowledge of scriptures or even no basic human learning. It is said the disciples of Jesus couldn’t count to 10.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's an interesting question - what is behind the assumption that pre-literate peoples are uneducated? What it is it about putting scratch marks on a piece of paper that makes us assume that means someone is educated? What about the oral traditions that were the norm for the vast majority of human history? Is memorizing reams of ballads and reciting stories without writing them down a sign of being uneducated? Is experiencing the world directly and applying reason to understand it a sign of being uneducated?

It is too easy to forget that crutching in scratch marks on pieces of paper is very modern. In my religion, scripture isn't really a thing. I live in a post-oral culture so scratch marks are more or less forced to be part of my lifeways, but far more emphasis is put on actual experience and doing things than symbol things on some page. You do not need some scratch marks to tell you what is what. Life experience itself tells you what is what. Gather enough of that and it isn't difficult to recognize those with special connections to particular gods. Prophets aren't really a thing in my tradition either, as anyone can develop close relationships with the gods, but not everyone will build the same relationships and some will draw from deeper wells of wisdom and experience than others.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
What criteria, not using any scripture would determine whether a prophet is true or not?
That things go as the prophet says.
This is a thread mainly for religionists to share, explain and explore how the first disciples of their religion came to know the truth without having knowledge of scriptures or even no basic human learning.
I don't believe they were stupid and as ignorant as you think.
It is said the disciples of Jesus couldn’t count to 10.
So, they never got more than 10 fish? :D Sorry, I don't believe that they couldn't do more.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Here's an interesting question - what is behind the assumption that pre-literate peoples are uneducated? What it is it about putting scratch marks on a piece of paper that makes us assume that means someone is educated? What about the oral traditions that were the norm for the vast majority of human history? Is memorizing reams of ballads and reciting stories without writing them down a sign of being uneducated? Is experiencing the world directly and applying reason to understand it a sign of being uneducated?

It is too easy to forget that crutching in scratch marks on pieces of paper is very modern. In my religion, scripture isn't really a thing. I live in a post-oral culture so scratch marks are more or less forced to be part of my lifeways, but far more emphasis is put on actual experience and doing things than symbol things on some page. You do not need some scratch marks to tell you what is what. Life experience itself tells you what is what. Gather enough of that and it isn't difficult to recognize those with special connections to particular gods. Prophets aren't really a thing in my tradition either, as anyone can develop close relationships with the gods, but not everyone will build the same relationships and some will draw from deeper wells of wisdom and experience than others.
I’m not assuming all people but the disciples of the Prophets did not possess the learning current amongst men. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t intelligent. I’m just asking how are they able to recognise the prophet when others cannot.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Saying “hello” after been crucified days earlier might be somewhat convincing to a disciple. It convinced Thomas… (or so the story goes)
The disciples had visions and dreams of Jesus after His crucifixion but they believed in Him well before so how did they know HI’m as their Lord. The authorities of the day labelled HI’m as a criminal.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That things go as the prophet says.

I don't believe they were stupid and as ignorant as you think.

So, they never got more than 10 fish? :D Sorry, I don't believe that they couldn't do more.
I’m not saying they were stupid I just want to know how they recognised Jesus without the scriptures.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I’m not saying they were stupid I just want to know how they recognised Jesus without the scriptures.
A religious prophet is not someone who predicts the future, but someone who speaks the truth with divine wisdom.

You could ask why people followed MLK just as easily. He spoke truth as his hearers experienced, and his character and manner backed his words up for how to proceed into the future. I believe he qualifies as a prophet.

In determining a prophet, I don't say "watch what comes true," but rather hear what is true and to the character of the devine. And watch that the truth does not waver nor rise loftly.

They had "the Scriptures." Maybe not in writing, though their Rabi did. But they knew the laws, the patriarchs, and the prophets. It was their way of life.
 

Sumadji

Active Member
When Jesus walked upon the earth He was surrounded by disciples who were fishermen mostly and couldn’t read or write. So how did they know He was the Lord?
The answer is very simple.

According to the New Testament Jesus was a healer and a miracle worker. The people came to him for healing. He healed the body and then he healed the soul and forgave sin. They believed him because of his actions and demonstrations. And then he taught them with words of such power that have changed the course of history and never been equalled. They didn’t need to read about him.

I’m not saying anyone has to believe what the NT says about Jesus’s miracles and healing. But anyone talking about Jesus, as the Baha'i do all the time, cannot disregard what the NT says about him.

And again he entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that he was in the house. Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And he preached the word to them. Then they came to him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. And when they could not come near him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where he was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, he said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” -- he said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Mark 2:1-12

The Baha'i need to find a way to get around the fact that Jesus Christ proved himself by miracles and healing. They want their Baha'u'llah in the station of Christ the Father to be even more powerful than Jesus Christ the Son, yet they have no demonstrations, just words and books -- a LOT of words and books.
 
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SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Not all religions buy into the concept of prophets. Mine doesn't.

That said, disciples recognize masters/gurus/sages through their temperament, actions and how they engage the world and people around them. Such a person is one that another aspires to be.

Anyone can say they speak the word of a god. But it's behavior and action, not words, that inspire.

Regarding disciples' education, while "followers" in that time may not have been educated by today's standards, there is nothing to indicate that the were not at a standard of knowledge considered "educated" for their time.
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Not all religions buy into the concept of prophets. Mine doesn't.

That said, disciples recognize masters/gurus/sages through their temperament, actions and how they engage the world and people around them. Such a person is one that another aspires to be.

Anyone can say they speak the word of a god. But it's behavior and action, not words, that inspire.

Regarding disciples' education, while "followers" in that time may not have been educated by today's standards, there is nothing to indicate that the were not at a standard of knowledge considered "educated" for their time.
But the Baha’i aren’t just talking about prophets, or gurus and sages. They are talking about the unique and only manifestation of God for the term of 1000 years until the next one comes. They are talking about his writings superseding all the previous scriptures of all humanity as the definitive word of God for 1000 years.

They talk about Baha’u’llah as Christ in the station of the Father, superseding Jesus Christ the Son. So it’s always a leading question. However one would expect such a powerful spiritual figure to be more than just a wise and good person with a magnetic personality?

It’s the Baha’i who keep talking about Jesus in comparison to Baha’u’llah. It's them who keep bringing the issue to the table. Nobody has to believe what the gospels say about Jesus. But if the Baha’i want to talk about Jesus they cannot disregard the gospel Jesus. And the gospel Jesus proved himself by healing miracles all the time.
 
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SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
But the Baha’i aren’t just talking about prophets, or gurus and sages. They are talking about Baha’u’llah as the unique and only manifestation of God for the term of 1000 years until the next one comes. They are talking about the writings of Baha’u’llah superseding all the previous scriptures of all humanity as the definitive word of God for 1000 years.

They talk about Baha’u’llah as Christ in the station of the Father, superseding Jesus Christ the Son. So it’s always a leading question. However one would expect such a powerful spiritual figure to be more than just a wise and good person with a magnetic personality?

It’s the Baha’i who keep talking about Jesus in comparison to Baha’u’llah. It's them who keep bringing the issue to the table. Nobody has to believe what the gospels say about Jesus. But if the Baha’i want to talk about Jesus they cannot disregard the gospel Jesus. And the gospel Jesus proved himself by healing miracles all the time.
A Baha'i with an agenda?! Surely you jest!

I'm well aware of the MO of a few Baha'is here. I typically choose to look beyond that and answer their questions based on my own perspective, not so much for my own sake, but for that of anyone else reading.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I've done some reflection on this lately. As with Salix, I don't believe in prophets at all, but it's still a 'thing' in our world, and can occasionally hold my interest. In another place, I read of a follower of a certain person with a prophet calling another group's prophet (the Siberian Jesus) a *******. It got me curious. So I did my re-research into messiah claimants, and all that. Besides Christ and Muhammad, it seemed that Joseph Smith, Baha'u'llah, and the Ahmadiya person had managed, over time, to garner the most support, after starting out with only a few people. The Russian 'Jesus', now in jail, was the only current one I looked into at any depth, but there are several others. The Russian guy has about 10 000 devotees, many whom have moved to a community in Siberia. They are pacifists, much like the Doukabhors, Hutterites, and Mennonites that have come from that area of the world, out of orthodoxy.

There were two intriguing commonalities amongst all of them. The first, not everyone, but the vast majority, made the claim that their guy was the real deal and all the rest were false. (So I visualized about 25 men standing in a circle, each taking turns stepping forward and screaming, 'No, you're not the messiah, I'm the only real messiah!' It would easily have been the followers themselves.) So I found that curious. Talk about a double standard. Few have the ability to step outside of their own bias.

The second commonality is that they were all self-declared. Nobody else suggested they were the new messiah, they all came to that conclusion on their own. Now this is suspicious for me. What exactly makes you so great? Frankly, it reeks of ego or grandiose delusion, or both. Of course there are many such declarants that are hospitalized for mental health reasons, as they have lost enough rationality to either be a danger to themselves or to others. We've also had one or two come to this forum.

So then I meditated. What I got was the word 'resonate'. For some reason, unknown to anyone else, either the vibration of the person, or the words of the person resonate in some way with the individual's adherents. And it's all okay, with any of them, unless they start harboring guns or are planning terrorism. As long as they aren't about to use violence to take over the rest of us, and have a 'you leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone' mentality, I see no harm in it.

The mentality just isn't mature enough for me personally, as I NEED to think for myself (and could never be that stubborn), and not use others to do my thinking for me.

The whole phenomena is there in neo-Hinduism as well. We've had our avatar claimants like Satya Sai Baba, Meher Baba, Mother Meera, the leader of Sahaja Yoga, and more. But it's not part of the tradition that I and many other Hindus follow. What we follow is that there are wiser men than ourselves, whom can offer us great advice and vibrations. In my own tradition, back in the early days, some 70 years ago, some devotees tried to spin my Guru into a messiah, but he immediately distanced himself from those ideas. Smart move, in my opinion.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't really use the concept of "prophet", mainly because it only has a real place in conceptions of religious practice that I don't validate.

But taking for granted that prophets can both exist and be worth the attention, they would be fairly easy to validate, and the way to validate them would be by careful examination of what they actually teach and the consequences of applying those teachings.

Of particular value would be the examination of how they deal with mistakes of transmission of their doctrines and how willing they are to reconsider previous teachings and course-correct.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
The disciples had visions and dreams of Jesus after His crucifixion but they believed in Him well before so how did they know HI’m as their Lord. The authorities of the day labelled HI’m as a criminal.
It’s been a while since I read the Bible but if memory serves right the story goes that Jesus was a regular miracle worker well before his crucifixion. So his disciples got to witness the miracles first hand and therefore had a good reason to believe in Jesus.

Us in the present are left without such a luxury I suppose.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The answer is very simple.

According to the New Testament Jesus was a healer and a miracle worker. The people came to him for healing. He healed the body and then he healed the soul and forgave sin. They believed him because of his actions and demonstrations. And then he taught them with words of such power that have changed the course of history and never been equalled. They didn’t need to read about him.

I’m not saying anyone has to believe what the NT says about Jesus’s miracles and healing. But anyone talking about Jesus, as the Baha'i do all the time, cannot disregard what the NT says about him.



The Baha'i need to find a way to get around the fact that Jesus Christ proved himself by miracles and healing. They want their Baha'u'llah in the station of Christ the Father to be even more powerful than Jesus Christ the Son, yet they have no demonstrations, just words and books -- a LOT of words and books.
After the Prophet has left the earth all you have is words and books. No one alive today was present when Jesus walked the earth so they have nothing to rely on except His reported Words. The same with all the Manifestations. All we have is a record of their lives and teachings.
 
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