How can you tell if a Prophet is true?

[Eddi]

So an Illusion act is what we turn Jesus into.

What about the cross, picking that up and flowing him, is that not a better example?

What about His trustworthiness and Truthfulness of word and actions, what about the Message from God?

Regards Tony

Any idiot can talk the talk

Only a prophet can walk the walk

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Any idiot can talk the talk

Only a prophet can walk the walk

History proves that only a few can tell the difference, before a multitude come on board.

Regards Tony

 

[Eddi]

History proves that only a few can tell the difference, before a multitude come on board.

Regards Tony

Or in other words there will always be some gullible fools who will swallow the idiotic and grandiose claims of people who are either mad or complete charlatans

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Or in other words there will always be some gullible fools who will swallow the idiotic and grandiose claims of people who are either mad or complete charlatans

The most likely scenario, as history has already proven, is that most people will reject a true Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

When Jesus walked upon the earth He was surrounded by disciples who were fishermen mostly and couldn’t read or write. So how did they know He was the Lord?

In the first place, it's not clear that Jesus was literate, in a time and place where illiteracy was very much the norm. If we accept that Mary's husband was a carpenter, for example, that's nowhere near literacy territory. His familiarity with the Tanakh may have been from hearing readings and debates at his local places of religion.

In the second place, if he had followers and they thought he was God's representative, that is presumably because he had a personality of a kind that could attract a particular class of followers. The southern US (in particular) has a religion industry in which that is a feature.

Same with most religions. The followers weren’t really educated but they seemed to be able to recognize the truth.

Or they knew what they wanted to hear, and now they were hearing it. Or the other friends in their group did.

How is this so and why were the priests and educated class unable to recognise the Prophet?

One reason might be that they'd never heard of him. He only reaches Jerusalem, the religious center of Judaism, in time to be arrested and executed. All his earlier time was spent in the sticks, as it were.

Another might be that he had none of the qualifications of a messiah, being neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, nor someone who had been anointed by the priesthood ─ that latter being the meaning of 'messiah', as you know.

What criteria, not using any scripture would determine whether a prophet is true or not?

His ability to draw a crowd, no?

 

[Eddi]

The most likely scenario, as history has already proven, is that most people will reject a true Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

Yes, yet being rejected in such a way does not necessarily make you a true prophet and is most likely a sign that you are a false prophet, as most such claimants are

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, yet being rejected in such a way does not necessarily make you a true prophet and is most likely a sign that you are a false prophet, as most such claimants are

Most do not have the sense of justice to truly find out who is true and who is false, as Jesus Christ told them to do.

Thus the vast majority face the dilemma that they will reject the very event they await.

Regards Tony

 

[Eddi]

Most do not have the sense of justice to truly find out who is true and who is false, as Jesus Christ told them to do.

Thus the vast majority face the dilemma that they will reject the very event they await.

Regards Tony

I think false prophets are pretty easy to spot

They tend to be the ones who claim to be prophets

That is why they need to perform miracles, as proof

No miracles, no prophet

Any moron can claim to be a prophet

Indeed a great many do

 

[Sumadji]

One reason might be that they'd never heard of him. He only reaches Jerusalem, the religious center of Judaism, in time to be arrested and executed.

Not really. Luke 2:41-47 has Jesus's family visiting Jerusalem every year, and Jesus teaching in the temple there at the age of twelve. And all the synoptic gospels have Jesus welcomed as a king riding on a donkey along palm lined streets.

John's gospel has Jesus visiting Jerusalem twice before his final visit.

The most likely scenario, as history has already proven, is that most people will reject a true Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

Jesus was not rejected by most people. They loved him and could not get enough of him. He was executed for that reason -- it was a political necessity

 

[blü 2]

Not really. Luke 2:41-47 has Jesus's family visiting Jerusalem every year, and Jesus teaching in the temple there at the age of twelve. And all the synoptic gospels have Jesus welcomed as a king riding on a donkey along palm lined streets.

John's gospel has Jesus visiting Jerusalem twice before his final visit.
Jesus was not rejected by most people. They loved him and could not get enough of him. He was executed for that reason -- it was a political necessity

Thanks for your correction. I note the Luke quote you refer to. Grateful if you can you give me chapter and verse for your other points.

 

[Sumadji]

Thanks for your correction. I note the Luke quote you refer to. Grateful if you can you give me chapter and verse for your other points.

Ok. I'm on my phone now so I'll get it up on pc from home. Jesus's triumphal entry to Jerasulem on palm lined streets to shouts of hosanna is common to Mark, Luke and Matthew. The John references to Jesus's previous visits to Jerusalem will take a bit more looking.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus was not rejected by most people. They loved him and could not get enough of him. He was executed for that reason -- it was a political necessity

Exactly what happened to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The majority of the population at the time did not embrace the Message of Jesus, it took quite some time to get a hold in people's hearts.

With the Bab, there were 18 (Disciples) and in a short period of time he was was attracting an immense following, that is why he was executed, as well as tens of thousands of Babi's.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

majority of the population at the time did not embrace the Message of Jesus, it took quite some time to get a hold in people's hearts.

Christianity caught on quickly. Christians were already all over the place according to Pliny the Younger in 110AD

Pliny the Younger on Christians - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes I know that but none of us living now have seen those miracles so they are only proof for those who were present at the time.

Wait - let's unpack this a bit.

To use a miracle to establish that someone is a prophet sent by God even to eyewitnesses, you'd need to:

1. Establish that a miracle occurred at all. (Was it a natural occurrence? Was it an especially tricky con artist? How do you know?)

2. Establish that the miracle was done by God and not some other being. (Did a demon do it? A trickster spirit?)

3. Establish the proper interpretation of the miracle. (Why should we conclude that it implies something about the purported prophet specifically instead of all the other people present? Why should we take it to mean "this person is my prophet" instead of some other message from God?)

Now... to establish all this for people not present or in a later time, you'd also need:

4. Enough evidence to persist to establish the facts needed to demonstrate 1-3.

Out of all those steps, 1 through 3 seem probably practically impossible. Step 4, OTOH... if steps 1 through 3 have been established for the witnesses to the miracle, then step 4 seems way easier than the other 3 steps.

 

[Sumadji]

Thanks for your correction. I note the Luke quote you refer to. Grateful if you can you give me chapter and verse for your other points.

Hi @blü 2
I googled this article at random with the query ‘How many times did Jesus visit Jerusalem in John’s Gospel’

“John gives an account of Jesus in Jerusalem on four different occasions, two during a Passover: (John 2:13; John 12:12) one during an unnamed festival (John 5:1) and one at Hannukah (John 10:22) The third Passover is mentioned in relation to the feeding of the 5,000 in John 6:4. The Synoptics instead present Jesus in Jerusalem only in the final days of his ministry, and include the cleansing of the temple episode in this period; it is this which provokes opposition to Jesus and leads to his execution.”

Jesus’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem is in Mark 11:1-11 and repeated in Matthew 21:1-11 and Luke 19:28-44

I have used the NKJV for reference and have tried to be accurate

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity caught on quickly. Christians were already all over the place according to Pliny the Younger in 110AD

Pliny the Younger on Christians - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The point is that it spread gradually over centuries starting with maybe only 120 beleivers in the Apostolic Age. Thus only a handful originally embraced Jesus, as it is with all Faiths.

One is not able to make it larger than it was, larger than the historical records show.

Prophecy said that it would eventually be spread across all the earth and it was most likely in the 4th Century, when Emperor Constantine jumped on board, that it started to fulfil this prophecy and from memory it was sometime in the 1800's when some of Christianity saw that Prophecy was fulfilled, as it sparked great hope for Christ's return.

Spread of Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

The point is that it spread gradually over centuries starting with maybe only 120 beleivers in the Apostolic Age. Thus only a handful originally embraced Jesus, as it is with all Faiths.

One is not able to make it larger than it was, larger than the historical records show.

Prophecy said that it would eventually be spread across all the earth and it was most likely in the 4th Century, when Emperor Constantine jumped on board, that it started to fulfil this prophecy and from memory it was sometime in the 1800's when some of Christianity saw that Prophecy was fulfilled, as it sparked great hope for Christ's return.

Spread of Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Regards Tony

However the only use the Baha'i ever seem to have for Jesus is as a prop for Baha'u'llah. Perhaps to leave it there?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

However the only use the Baha'i ever seem to have for Jesus is as a prop for Baha'u'llah. Perhaps to leave it there?

You can leave it where you choose to. Your observation is very flawed.

That observation would also be offering that Abraham and Moses were only a prop for Jesus.

It is also not considering that a sign of a true Prophet is that they will give testimony to Jesus.

Thus I share Baha'u'llah's testimony.

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."

John 15:26-27 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

However the only use the Baha'i ever seem to have for Jesus is as a prop for Baha'u'llah. Perhaps to leave it there?

I do not consider Jesus as a prop for Baha'u'llah. Jesus is who I pray to for help when I pray to God.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not consider Jesus as a prop for Baha'u'llah. Jesus is who I pray to for help when I pray to God.

One of your peculiarities of which there are many.