How come the occult is a sin?

[JayJayDee]

You are so funny - you just ignore that the things the Hebrew did - even using Gods Name, - fall under the heading MAGIC, - and are called so when done not using his name!

According to the Bible -

They Scryed using bowls.

They put magic into objects.

They cursed people - to death.

They conjured up bears, etc.

They created potions to heal water, etc.

They created magic potions to be given to a woman accused of adultery - that was to make her miscarry if she was guilty.

They cast lots - think Runes - to decide events.

They conjured up the future.

They even tell us in there that they are Sorcerers of renown.

They said POWER WORDS and packed magic wands and staffs, for instance hitting a rock and producing water.

They did fertility magic with those wands/staffs.

In museums we have examples of magic bowls.

The idea that it doesn't say they did magic - is ridiculous!

I'm sorry but that is extremely skewed. Why would God forbid all forms of magic and sorcery to his people under penalty of death and then approve of them carrying it out? (Deut 18:9-12; Lev 19:26) That is ridiculous!

Since when is a staff a wand? You put your own take on everything and assume that you are right. I don't think you are.

You ignore every piece of scriptural evidence that is put to you and put your own spin on it. You can believe whatever you like.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm sorry but that is extremely skewed. Why would God forbid all forms of magic and sorcery to his people under penalty of death and then approve of them carrying it out? (Deut 18:9-12; Lev 19:26) That is ridiculous!

Since when is a staff a wand? You put your own take on everything and assume that you are right. I don't think you are.

You ignore every piece of scriptural evidence that is put to you and put your own spin on it. You can believe whatever you like.

As our Jewish members told you - only certain things were forbidden. They performed all kinds of magic - as our Jewish members told you.

Here is a quote from Levite - (I don't want to post the whole thing unless he would like me to.)

"Actually, not all magic was outlawed in Jewish tradition. There was, apparently, a flourishing magical practice in the late Second Temple period and throughout the first millennium of the Common Era.

So, for example, in Deut. 18, the passage usually rendered along these lines...

Let there not be found in your midst one who passes his son or daughter through fire, nor a diviner, a soothsayer, an augur, or a witch, nor a charmer, nor a consulter of familiar spirits, nor a necromancer. For all who do thusly are an abhorrence to YHVH, and because of this abhorrence, YHVH your God will drive them out before you: you must be pure, like YHVH your God.

...is actually deceptive. The words are mistranslated in part because in modern English we employ no common terms for specific kinds of magic; and in part because in no longer understanding magic, most scholars of the previous several centuries have come to the erroneous conclusion that all magic is either divinatory or involves raising spirits in some fashion. And of course, that is not the case.

What is translated as "diviner" (kosem kesamim) is actually more accurately rendered as "diviner-by-divisions," indicating one who divines either by extispicy (examining animal entrails for omens) or by the use of sileximancy, stipomancy, or suchlike (divining by patterning special stones, staves, lots, or other talismans symbolizing omens).

What is translated as "soothsayer" (me'onen) is best rendered as "nubilomancer:" one who divines by gazing at cloud patterns.

What is translated as "augur" (menachesh) is best rendered as "colubromancer:" one who either divines or casts spells using snakes, either real or symbolic. This may be a diviner,
or a sorcerer. Serpent magic was extremely popular in Egypt, so it may have had nefarious associations with Egyptian idolatry to the ancient Jews."

By the way thank you for this information Levite.

*

 

[JayJayDee]

As our Jewish members told you - only certain things were forbidden. They performed all kinds of magic - as our Jewish members told you.

Here is a quote from Levite - (I don't want to post the whole thing unless he would like me to.)

"Actually, not all magic was outlawed in Jewish tradition. There was, apparently, a flourishing magical practice in the late Second Temple period and throughout the first millennium of the Common Era.

So, for example, in Deut. 18, the passage usually rendered along these lines...

Let there not be found in your midst one who passes his son or daughter through fire, nor a diviner, a soothsayer, an augur, or a witch, nor a charmer, nor a consulter of familiar spirits, nor a necromancer. For all who do thusly are an abhorrence to YHVH, and because of this abhorrence, YHVH your God will drive them out before you: you must be pure, like YHVH your God.

...is actually deceptive. The words are mistranslated in part because in modern English we employ no common terms for specific kinds of magic; and in part because in no longer understanding magic, most scholars of the previous several centuries have come to the erroneous conclusion that all magic is either divinatory or involves raising spirits in some fashion. And of course, that is not the case.

What is translated as "diviner" (kosem kesamim) is actually more accurately rendered as "diviner-by-divisions," indicating one who divines either by extispicy (examining animal entrails for omens) or by the use of sileximancy, stipomancy, or suchlike (divining by patterning special stones, staves, lots, or other talismans symbolizing omens).

What is translated as "soothsayer" (me'onen) is best rendered as "nubilomancer:" one who divines by gazing at cloud patterns.

What is translated as "augur" (menachesh) is best rendered as "colubromancer:" one who either divines or casts spells using snakes, either real or symbolic. This may be a diviner,
or a sorcerer. Serpent magic was extremely popular in Egypt, so it may have had nefarious associations with Egyptian idolatry to the ancient Jews."

By the way thank you for this information Levite.

*

Let me just requote the opening words from Levite...

""Actually, not all magic was outlawed in Jewish tradition. There was, apparently, a flourishing magical practice in the late Second Temple period and throughout the first millennium of the Common Era"

Can I draw your attention to the term "Jewish tradition" here? It was this very "tradition" that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, placing it before the word of God, invalidating it. (Matt 15:3-6)

When Israel's last prophet, Malachi prophesied, a deplorable situation existed among the priests. Contrary to the Law, they were accepting lame, blind, and sick animals for sacrifice on Jehovah’s altar. (Mal 1:8; Lev 22:19; Deut 15:21) They failed to give proper direction and instruction to the people, causing many to stumble. (Mal 2:7, 8) When judging matters, they showed partiality. (2:9) All of this had a bad effect on the Israelites in general, causing them to view Jehovah’s service as being of little value. (3:14, 15) This is apparent from the fact that the Israelites did not support the temple by paying their tithes. So far had they fallen from their devotion to Jehovah that apparently they were divorcing their wives to marry women worshiping false gods. Also, sorcery, adultery, lying, fraud, and oppression came to exist among the Israelites. (2:11, 14-16; 3:5, 8-10) For this reason Jehovah gave advance warning of his coming to his temple for judgment. (3:1-6) At the same time he encouraged wrongdoers to repent, saying: “Return to me, and I will return to you.” (3:7.)

So regardless of what anyone says, Israel as a nation were not in a fit state to worship their God during that entire period. Jesus confirmed that nothing much had changed by the time he assumed his role as Messiah.

Whatever Israel practiced in that period, it was not acceptable to their God.


.

 

[Ingledsva]

Let me just requote the opening words from Levite...

""Actually, not all magic was outlawed in Jewish tradition. There was, apparently, a flourishing magical practice in the late Second Temple period and throughout the first millennium of the Common Era"

Can I draw your attention to the term "Jewish tradition" here? It was this very "tradition" that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for, placing it before the word of God, invalidating it. (Matt 15:3-6)

When Israel's last prophet, Malachi prophesied, a deplorable situation existed among the priests. Contrary to the Law, they were accepting lame, blind, and sick animals for sacrifice on Jehovah’s altar. (Mal 1:8; Lev 22:19; Deut 15:21) They failed to give proper direction and instruction to the people, causing many to stumble. (Mal 2:7, 8) When judging matters, they showed partiality. (2:9) All of this had a bad effect on the Israelites in general, causing them to view Jehovah’s service as being of little value. (3:14, 15) This is apparent from the fact that the Israelites did not support the temple by paying their tithes. So far had they fallen from their devotion to Jehovah that apparently they were divorcing their wives to marry women worshiping false gods. Also, sorcery, adultery, lying, fraud, and oppression came to exist among the Israelites. (2:11, 14-16; 3:5, 8-10) For this reason Jehovah gave advance warning of his coming to his temple for judgment. (3:1-6) At the same time he encouraged wrongdoers to repent, saying: “Return to me, and I will return to you.” (3:7.)

So regardless of what anyone says, Israel as a nation were not in a fit state to worship their God during that entire period. Jesus confirmed that nothing much had changed by the time he assumed his role as Messiah.

Whatever Israel practiced in that period, it was not acceptable to their God.

You just keep repeating - when the Bible itself tells us about all the MAGIC they did, and Levite told you those are MISTRANSLATED texts against only certain kinds of foreign magic.

*

 

[psychoslice]

Or more accurately his people don't.

Did you know that Paul was so full of himself - that he figured cloths that he had just touched, had magic power? He sent them out to people.

Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

There is a verse in the Christian Bible where the apostles are upset because a non-follower was doing magic, and healing, using the name of Jesus. They were told it was OK, because he used the name of Jesus. Speaks volumes to this subject.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which can do a miracle in my name, that can after lightly speak evil of me.

*

Well yes of course, people wrote the scriptures, and I don't believe in a god, but what you said was very interesting.

 

[JayJayDee]

You just keep repeating - when the Bible itself tells us about all the MAGIC they did, and Levite told you those are MISTRANSLATED texts against only certain kinds of foreign magic.

*

Good grief! No one is denying that the Israelites practiced all manner of abhorrent things. They adopted practices that their God forbade. "Foreign magic"? Are you serious? All illegitimate use of uncanny power was forbidden in Israel.

All legitimate use of supernatural power was provided and sanctioned by God. Anything outside of that was condemned. Do you understand this?

Why are you trying to imply that it was no big deal to God if they practiced "magic"? It was. The death penalty was applied to those who fell away to such practices. Tell me where the word "magic" is ever applied to what God did by means of his holy spirit ?

It is you who keeps repeating the falsehood.

 

[Ingledsva]

Good grief! No one is denying that the Israelites practiced all manner of abhorrent things. They adopted practices that their God forbade. "Foreign magic"? Are you serious? All illegitimate use of uncanny power was forbidden in Israel.

All legitimate use of supernatural power was provided and sanctioned by God. Anything outside of that was condemned. Do you understand this?

Why are you trying to imply that it was no big deal to God if they practiced "magic"? It was. The death penalty was applied to those who fell away to such practices. Tell me where the word "magic" is ever applied to what God did by means of his holy spirit ?

It is you who keeps repeating the falsehood.

And again you make assumptions on mistranslated texts, - as such, - you have no idea what-so-ever, if YHVH condemned Hebrew Magic! Just foreign.

With it going on all throughout Tanakh and into the Christian Bible, - I'm going to guess NOT!

They performed all kinds of magic - and in none of the stories are they killed for such.

Jesus' statement makes it pretty plain that just using his name instead of a foreign one - makes the magic OK.

And by the way calling known magic practices - miracles, because of association to YHVH, - does not change the actual fact that they were practicing all forms of magic.



*

 

[JayJayDee]

And again you make assumptions on mistranslated texts, - as such, - you have no idea what-so-ever, if YHVH condemned Hebrew Magic! Just foreign.

With it going on all throughout Tanakh and into the Christian Bible, - I'm going to guess NOT!

They performed all kinds of magic - and in none of the stories are they killed for such.

Jesus' statement makes it pretty plain that just using his name instead of a foreign one - makes the magic OK.

And by the way calling known magic practices - miracles, because of association to YHVH, - does not change the actual fact that they were practicing all forms of magic.

You have fingers in both ears....la la la. Have it your way....you just don't get it do you?

There is not one mention of the word "magic" in connection with anything that God ever did by means of his spirit. You do know what "illegitimate" use of uncanny power means don't you? It is the "unauthorised" use of such power....this was the "foreign magic". This is the conduct that was punishable by death. Is there something amiss with your comprehension?

 

[Ingledsva]

You have fingers in both ears....la la la. Have it your way....you just don't get it do you?

There is not one mention of the word "magic" in connection with anything that God ever did by means of his spirit. You do know what "illegitimate" use of uncanny power means don't you? It is the "unauthorised" use of such power....this was the "foreign magic". This is the conduct that was punishable by death. Is there something amiss with your comprehension?

And as has been pointed out over and over - calling the same thing something else because it is under your god - instead of another - is ridiculous.

Magic is magic is magic! You call the other side as evil MAGIC - when it is the same thing. Thus you know the Hebrew practiced magic.

They Scryed, cast lots, divined the future, made potions, packed wands/staffs which they used in their magic, according to the Bible used POWER Words when doing so, etc.

Same old- same old.

*

 

[Sand Dancer]

Why is it bad to consult a witch to see the future, but okay to pretend that prophets can see the future? Fundies, can't live with 'em, can't rapture 'em.

 

[Angel1]

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

Merriam-Webster defines occult as a secret or hidden knowledge relating to supernatural powers or practices that are not easily understood.

It is neither good or evil but takes on such character depending on the use to which it is applied. Much also depends on who is labelling it, his motive in doing so. Therefore, if something occult is against one’s belief or purpose, then he will most likely regard it as evil or of the devil. And if it should be agreeable to him and his purposes, then it will be regarded as good.

So dispense with labels.

Psychic phenomena is a natural and inherent property of every spirit entity, except that for most of us, this faculty is not yet fully developed. Telepathy, clairvoyance, psychometry and all other spiritual means of communication with spirits in other worlds are possible and do take place more frequently than most people think. However, the communications made possible should be received with caution. All kinds of spirits are able to communicate, the elevated as much as the profane. At all times, we must learn to discern and not allow ourselves to be easily fooled.

Before we even attempt to communicate, we should make certain that our intentions are for good and our hearts are right. Otherwise, the possibilities for us to be harmed can be very real, indeed.

Adepts of all faiths, mystics, seers, Spiritualists and Spiritists, Christians speaking in tongues and mediums of all persuasions communicate with spirits on a daily basis. So can anyone who is interested also develop his own abilities if he should choose to do so. But first, learn the basic guiderules and procedures to obtain the best results while protecting yourself from harm.

 

[Rise]

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.

How do you think he come closer to God's will through this encounter? We see nothing of the sort happening here.

The necromancer didn't tell Saul that Got wanted him to do or change anything about his life; she just gave a condemning declaration that he would die and there was nothing he could do about it.

When a genuine prophet speaks from God there's always a call to repentence and a promise of hope for those who are willing to change.

a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.

God did not speak to Saul.
Samuel wasn't even speaking to Saul. The Bible does not identify the apparation as actually being Samuel; it only records that the necromancer saw an apparation and Saul assumed it was Samuel.

b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

God will speak if you seek him. If he doesn't there is a reason - but that reason can be corrected.

If he doesn't speak then no other source on earth or in hell will be able to declare to you the things which only God knows.

Ezekiel 20:3
In Ezekiel, the elders of Israel in exile sought the prophet to inquire of him. However, God refused to speak to them through Ezekiel because God knew their heart - They had ignored the word of God for decades, and they still did not have a heart to humble themselves and accept what God would say to them.

Those who truly want to hear from God need a humble heart that is willing to accept and obey what he says.
And then, those who seek him, will find him.
Proverbs 8:17
Matthew 7:7
Jeremiah 29:13
James 4:8

The reason Saul did not hear from God is because, like the elders in Ezekiel's day, he did not have a heart that truly wanted to humble himself and accept God's way. He only wanted to seek reassurance from God when things were going bad but wasn't willing to accept correction from God about how he was living.

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but inthis story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

The Bible does not forbid turning to God to know the future.
Only God can tell you with certainty what the future holds.
Isaiah 44:7
Isaiah 41:22

The Bible forbids turning to demons and sorcery as a means of trying to determine the future - Which would never be accurate anyway, so why would you want to do it?

1 Samuel 15:23
Divination is like Rebellion. It's trying to be in control over your circumstances, by turning to everything but God, instead of surrendering to God and accepting his control.

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

God is truth. Everything that does not come from God is a lie.

John 8:44-45
Not only does rebellion against God (occultism) mean you cannot enter his kingdom, resulting in judgement and seperation from him - But the demons you would encounter will lie to you anyway, for the purpose of bringing ultimate destruction upon you; because satan is the father of all lies and his desire is only murder towards mankind.

Occultism is a poor counterfeit of the righteous ways God has set up to inqure of him and seek him for your needs. Indulging in it will only lead to your eventual destruction. Like much in the law, God forbids it for your own protection, out of love.

b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?

Galatians 5:19-21

He is the same God, with the same truth. His truth doesn't change. The same principles about why it was forbidden still apply to anyone today.

If a father tells his young teenage son not to get involved with a violent drug gang then it is for his good that this was said. The son would do well to heed the warning. The consequences of not doing so will be serious if not deadly,

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Because god is a jealous god and doesn't like competition.

Yes, when you are getting paid to give out "God's word", you resent intrusions into your territory. It's why Judaism was polytheistic, then henotheistic, and finally monotheistic. Well, at least the clergy was. Per the bible, the people remained polytheistic for quite some time...

 

[Yoshua]

Why is it bad to consult a witch to see the future, but okay to pretend that prophets can see the future? Fundies, can't live with 'em, can't rapture 'em.

Hi Thirza,

Because he/she is a witch, a witch is not from God. Prophets is the speaker of God, but there are false prophets. Watch out!

Thanks

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But really the only difference between a witch and a prophet is the latter was writing the story.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Hi Thirza,

Because he/she is a witch, a witch is not from God. Prophets is the speaker of God, but there are false prophets. Watch out!

Thanks

Both tell the future though...That kind of thing is why I left Christianity. Just silliness. Not disparaging you, mind you. You seem nice.

 

[Yoshua]

Both tell the future though...That kind of thing is why I left Christianity. Just silliness. Not disparaging you, mind you. You seem nice.

Hi Thirza,

Yes, both of them has the capability to tell the future. My reference is the Bible.

Thanks

 

[1137]

I really wish this was in the general debate section.

 

[Angel1]

1. Spirit communication is as old as man. It is a real means of obtaining information from Beyond. However, because the people in Biblical times were not morally or intellectually evolved, they were warned to stay away from such activities because of the high risk of them being fooled, misled and harmed.

a) Not wrong. It was a common practice by royalty and those in the upper rankings of society at the time, in most places. However, the information obtained are often not reliable or misleading.

b) Yes.

2. Again, the reason is to safeguard those who are weak and gullible from being misled. If one feels that he can handle the risks and his motives are pure, then he can and should avail of this source of information. Earthly laws are not God’s laws. Use your power of reasoning, always.

3. Same as above.

4. Same reasons apply.

Here are some insights that should clarify the laws, practices and implications relating to spirit communication. Excerpt from: ‘Secrets of the kingdom’ / The teachings of the Holy Spirit 2 http://goo.gl/o14Qe9, an Amazon Kindle book.

Limitations of the student

Contrary to what most people believe, our life did not begin when we were born. In fact, we were already existing before this world was created. We have come a long way but we have only just begun. The road stretches farther still.

We are presently, each of us, at a particular stage in the order of evolution. We have already learned much and experienced much which have shaped our character and conditioned our attitudes and predispositions. We have enabled ourselves to easily comprehend many things by intuitively remembering the essence of those lessons which we have already learned in our past lives. We have also developed many of our faculties and abilities, which can just as easily be made available to us in this life.

From here, we move on to new lessons, but this time, progress proceeds more slowly. This explains why each of us understands differently, why we have different inborn abilities, talents, likes and dislikes and why each has different needs that require special attention.

Some of us are more ready to turn spiritual than others, owing to their having had more incarnations and more experiences. Those who are more advanced will be more open and ready for these teachings, they having satisfied much of their worldly cravings in lives past. Similarly, they will be entitled to receive much higher instruction than the others who are still in the lower stages of development.

Limitations of mediums

Likewise, mediums, including the prophets of old, although supposed to be servants of the Lord are not necessarily already very highly evolved spiritually. Every one of them is still a student undergoing specialized instruction and training. They have attained to varying levels of spiritual attainment and spiritual understanding. Their mediumistic abilities are proficient to the degree to which they have developed them in their past lives. However, depending on their level in the order of evolution, they still do many foolish things and are themselves full of superstitions. In addition, they commit a lot of mistakes, besides. Therefore, concerning any message relayed through them, there will always be some amount of distortion.

Where complex concepts are involved, these must first be understood and interpreted by the medium before he may effectively relay the information. But there are many higher principles that are beyond the ordinary medium’s capacity to comprehend. Such principles will filter out like coded messages and the student will then have to read between the lines.

Where thoughts and not the actual words are transmitted by the Spirits, the mediums have to translate them into their own words drawing from their poor vocabulary. In fact, our own English and all other languages combined are so thoroughly deficient in describing higher spiritual principles and deeper truths. Therefore, in the translation into words, so much is lost.

Where the medium disagrees with any message or if such message runs counter to his strongly held beliefs, he is bound to resist and even issue a contrary message which is more in accord with his own understanding and belief.

Sometimes, the medium may have a vested interest in matters relating to the communication. It takes a very highly evolved and ethical person not to take advantage by influencing the message to suit his own objectives. Many mediums fall short of this criterion.

Mediums also have a tendency to affect the quality and tone of the message depending on whether they like or dislike the students under instruction. Similarly, any serious character flaw or deficiency on the part of the medium will taint the messages.

Further, each medium has his own field of specialization. Some are especially knowledgeable as far as the principles and teachings are concerned. Others focus more on the development of mediumship, while others are particularly competent only in the healing aspects of the teachings.

In all these, it is important to remember that no matter how pure the water you pour into the glass, the water gets contaminated if the glass is dirty. And no medium is perfectly clean or thoroughly competent.

Limitations of the Communicating Spirit

There is always a Spirit-in-charge of the proceedings. We also have our own guardian angels to assist us. However, owing to the need for specialized knowledge depending on the lesson at hand, all classes of spirits are allowed to communicate with us. Just like us, they, too, have different degrees of knowledge, different abilities, styles and viewpoints. We shall know them by their language and the thoughts that they impart.

We should continue to allow them to communicate with us for as long as the messages and guidance they provide bring good. However, once the opposite becomes true, then we should be wary and act accordingly, even to the extent of terminating the communication.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Read the following short story:

"1 Samuel 28 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Saul Talks with Samuel’s Ghost
28 1-3 Samuel had died some time earlier,[a] and people from all over Israel had attended his funeral in his hometown of Ramah.

Meanwhile, Saul had been trying to get rid of everyone who spoke with the spirits of the dead.[b] But one day the Philistines brought their soldiers together to attack Israel.

Achish told David, “Of course, you know that you and your men must fight as part of our Philistine army.”

David answered, “That will give you a chance to see for yourself just how well we can fight!”

“In that case,” Achish said, “you and your men will always be my bodyguards.”

4 The Philistines went to Shunem and set up camp. Saul called the army of Israel together, and they set up their camp in Gilboa. 5 Saul took one look at the Philistine army and started shaking with fear. 6 So he asked the Lord what to do. But the Lord would not answer, either in a dream or by a priest or a prophet. 7 Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”

His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”

8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”

9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”

10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. He was weak because he had not eaten anything since the day before.

21 The woman came over to Saul, and when she saw that he was completely terrified, she said, “Your Majesty, I listened to you and risked my life to do what you asked. 22 Now please listen to me. Let me get you a little something to eat. It will give you strength for your walk back to camp.”

23 “No, I won’t eat!”

But his officers and the woman kept on urging Saul, until he finally agreed. He got up off the floor and sat on the bed. 24 Right away the woman killed a calf that she had been fattening up. She cooked part of the meat and baked some thin bread.[c] 25 Then she served the food to Saul and his officers, who ate and left before daylight."

1. I understand this story as that Saul came closer to Gods will when using the necromancer to talk with the spirit of Salomo, because the spirit of Salomo told Saul how to get on the right path.
a) - Can someone explain to me why this was wrong of Saul? The occult helped Saul to reach God in the sense of telling him.
b) - Couldn't this be a tool to get guidance from other prophets as well, in the search of doing Gods will?

2. I christian faith there is also tabu to try to read the future, but in this story Solomo himself predicts the future to Saul. Why is this legal in christian faith?

3. What do you think christian and jewish faith thinks is the bad side of doing occultism?

4. What do you think 3.book of moses 19;31-32 that you shouldnt seek out the occult, but rather respect the elders? Whys that (from a christian and jewish perspective), you think?
a) 19;26 says that we shouldn't use astrology, and in 20;27 it stands that the occultists shall be killed by the tribe. Why do you think the jews got laws as this?
b) Does these laws have anything with christianity to do, you think, or was it strictly prohibited for the jews?


I appreciate all answers!

I suppose in the main, we are like children, or perhaps better, animals, and should roam the land and take the food that the lord provides. The world would be a different place if we did though hey? But that means you rely totally on him. So anything that takes it outside the basic idea of man, flesh and blood, is generally speaking wrong. He is the Father so we the offspring. Thus there must be some human construct to what we think of God- he does get angry for one.