How did the first living thing on earth come to life?

[lilithu]

My definition of life is this: possessing some degree of spirit.

What is spirit and how do you know that a single cell does not have spirit? If scientists were to engineer a multicell organism that precisely replicated all of the biological functions as a "natural" organism, on what basis would you say that it does not have spirit?

And yes I agree, there is no such thing genetically, as race. It's is a socio-political construct. The concept of race didn't even exist until the early 17th century.

 

[darkpenguin]

Hindus believe that evolution is a fact but that man was a special creation of the Maker. In South Korea school children are now taught that man was created by aliens who arrived on earth in UFOs??!!
Regards

Is that idea really so rediculous? I personaly think it's no less rediculous then believing in a god that we cannot see/hear/feel etc. If either is the case then we are all simply a experiment to see just how long it takes for us to kill ourselves, which at the given rate of decline in civilisation shouldn't take us long really!
Is it so hard to believe that random chaos put us here? There was water/ice and various other elements created from the 'big bang' that were able to house bacteria and then evolve from there to animals/plants etc. Is that really a hard theory to get our heads around? I find that easier and more rational to believe in then I do with the 7 day/creationist theory!
At the end of the day nobody really knows why or how we became to be as we don't have all of the peices of the puzzle and we probably never will but we can be assured that the world/solar system/universe is alot older then any bible/religion that we posses here on earth!

 

[Super Universe]

Wanderer085: If you don't believe in God, then don't believe. That is your God given choice and no one can take it away from you.

You think the multi-verse needs no God? It does if you ever wish to discover the true source of the energy filaments in string theory or learn the way our sun really works or discover the source for gravity. The universe is a movie and God is the projector.

What is spirit? Sentient energy.

How do I know a single cell does not have spirit? I never said it did not. Even something smaller than a single cell, a speck of RNA (a virus), is alive so certainly a single cell has some degree of spirit.

DarkPenguin: Just because you cannot feel God does not mean that others are like you. Civilization is not in decline, we are expanding our population and understanding of the universe at an increasing rate.

Is it hard to believe that random chaos put us here? Actually, yes. Impossible to believe. Chaos creates laws? Yeah, right. There was no bacteria in the big bang. Not possible, no way, no how.

 

[lilithu]

Super Universe -

You wrote: "A single cell is not life, it has life, life that can join with it and leave it as well. Scientists can join together all these chemicals in their proper form but it will not come to life."

I wrote: "Define life."

You wrote: "My definition of life is this: possessing some degree of spirit."

To which I reponded: "What is spirit and how do you know that a single cell does not have spirit? If scientists were to engineer a multicell organism that precisely replicated all of the biological functions as a "natural" organism, on what basis would you say that it does not have spirit?"

And now you say: "How do I know a single cell does not have spirit? I never said it did not. Even something smaller than a single cell, a speck of RNA (a virus), is alive so certainly a single cell has some degree of spirit."


I hope you can see the reason for my being perplexed by your reponses. What is it in your opinion that a "natural" organism has that would cause it to "be life" or "come to life" that an engineered organism would not possess?

 

[lilithu]

Is it so hard to believe that random chaos put us here?

Yes.

I have no problem with believing that there is randomness involved in the evolutionary process. I have no problem believing that if the environment happened to be different then evolution would have taken a different course. There is no inherent reason why humans have to be the way we are or that we as a species need even exist. BUT... I do not believe that there is nothing but "random chaos." When we say that "All persons are created equal" I believe that to be absolutely true. I do not believe that's just a concept that some people invented because of its utility. I believe that it is and would be true even if we couldn't offer any reasons that appeal to our self-interest. I hold with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr who said that "the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends towards justice." In other words, there is a moral direction to the universe.

Whatever people want to call it - God, Goddess, over soul, collective consciousness, the interdependant web of existence... - doesn't matter to me - it says to me that the universe is not just random chaos.

 

[logician]

No god but a malevolent one would create Bush.

 

[Super Universe]

A single cell is not life, it has life, meaning that it has some degree of spirit, or it does not. If it doesn't have some degree of spirit then it is dead. I see no reason you should be perplexed.

A cell is not life nor is it spirit just as a human is not life nor spirit, neither the cell nor any human even truly possess spirit, it's the other way around.

How would an engineered organism not possess life? Think of a craftsman who fabricates swords but all of the iron deposits have been found and used for other things. How does this craftsman then make his sword?

He takes something that is steel and melts it down. He simply moves the steel from one form to another. This your scientists can do. They can take life, DNA or RNA, and move it into another cell and take credit for "creating life" when actually they've only moved it.

Souls (sentient energy/spirit) choose to join with a biologic to separate from God for a short while in order to develop into an individual being, learning right from wrong and the consequences of action and inaction. It's kind of like an 18 year old moving away from home and into their own apartment.

On the earth, we are tested but not by God, by other beings undergoing the same test in the same incredible school of life. We come here by choice because this is the best school in the universe.

If anyone ever wants to know the key to getting into heaven, this is it: Realize, better yet, remember, that you are an everlasting soul (spirit/God fragment) that is inhabiting an incredibly selfish temporary vehicle for a very short time.

Compare anything a human does with the eternity of the universe, there is no comparison. The new SUV will not go with you to heaven. The nice house with polished granite countertops will not last nearly as long as the mature developed soul.

The only thing to do then is to learn everything you can, experience everything you can, take with you many memories. Live, and purge away any selfish thoughts. What you do for someone you've never met is worth a thousand times more than what you do for your best friend.

No human ever goes to heaven, the human body couldn't even exist there. Humans turn to dust.

 

[lilithu]

A single cell is not life, it has life, meaning that it has some degree of spirit, or it does not. If it doesn't have some degree of spirit then it is dead. I see no reason you should be perplexed.

Perhaps someone who understands you can explain it to me.

How would an engineered organism not possess life? Think of a craftsman who fabricates swords but all of the iron deposits have been found and used for other things. How does this craftsman then make his sword?

He takes something that is steel and melts it down. He simply moves the steel from one form to another. This your scientists can do. They can take life, DNA or RNA, and move it into another cell and take credit for "creating life" when actually they've only moved it.

The craftsman may be taking pre-existing steel and moving it from one form to another, but the previous form was not a sword. So he is indeed creating a sword. In fact, even if he melted down a sword into a lump and then made another sword from the steel he would still be able to say that he made a sword. The "swordness" of the sword is not inherent in the material. It is inherent in the way in which the material is organized.

At the moment it is true that scientists have not yet created life de novo, they have merely moved DNA from one cell to another. BUT they also have not claimed that they have created life. Not yet. It will happen that scientists will be able to synthesize the components of a cell from non-biological molecules (from atoms if need be to quell the skeptics). They will be able to put them all together and it will function in the same way that a living cell does. And at that point I see no basis for saying that it is not alive. Moreover, the material from which it was made was not alive and from them a living thing was created. Life in not inherent in the materials; it is inherent in the way in which the material is organized.

 

[lilithu]

No god but a malevolent one would create Bush.

Wow, what an astute and devastating rebuttal...

As I said, King said that "the moral arc of the universe is LONG but it bends toward justice." Meaning that there will be setbacks and it will take a long time but the overall general direction is towards greater justice. I also said that I believed there was randomness in the process. Call him a cancerous mutation.

 

[lilithu]

The multiverse is ruled by chaos is an observation...

It's a conclusion based on an interpretation of your obeservations.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

people...people.. stay on track here..... Evolution has been proven. the existance of god has not.

Evolution is the process inwhich a thing changes. It couldn't have been god. the christians, muslims and jews say that if god wills it all he has to do is will it. that leaves no room for evolution but monotheist can never explain why science proves them wrong on that. from the beginninig of ther bible it said there was Adam all by himself and god caused a deep sleep on him and took a rib and made a woman. Crap...Crap...Crap.... If it was god then there would be no need for the thatrics... It all soundls like some sort of surgical cloning experiment done by a team of scientist. "Let US make man in OUR image and and likeness"..... NOT "I" shall make man in "MY" image and likeness.

Monotheist can never admit evolution because it tends to break down their beliefs. The earth is much older than how the bible portrays it. This is simply because these religions don't know. the very word Genesis means rebirth..reconstruction...regenerate...

Evolution has had the ability to provide answers where religion tells us to have faith. if you look around you it is all science. if you were hurt and needed to go to the hospital you'd want to know that the doctor that is going to be working on you knew all that he or she could in order to fix you. you can't do that with faith.

 

[darkpenguin]

Is it hard to believe that random chaos put us here? Actually, yes. Impossible to believe. Chaos creates laws? Yeah, right. There was no bacteria in the big bang. Not possible, no way, no how.

So there is no bacteria on asteroids and comets or any other planets? If the enviroment is right then bacteria can form.
And why is random chaos so hard to believe? A butterfly flaping its wings can add to winds halfway across the globe and what happens when you drop stones into water? Each one has a different effect no matter how similar the rocks are - random chaos!

 

[Super Universe]

people...people.. stay on track here..... Evolution has been proven. the existance of god has not.

Evolution is the process inwhich a thing changes. It couldn't have been god. the christians, muslims and jews say that if god wills it all he has to do is will it. that leaves no room for evolution but monotheist can never explain why science proves them wrong on that. from the beginninig of ther bible it said there was Adam all by himself and god caused a deep sleep on him and took a rib and made a woman. Crap...Crap...Crap.... If it was god then there would be no need for the thatrics... It all soundls like some sort of surgical cloning experiment done by a team of scientist. "Let US make man in OUR image and and likeness"..... NOT "I" shall make man in "MY" image and likeness.

Monotheist can never admit evolution because it tends to break down their beliefs. The earth is much older than how the bible portrays it. This is simply because these religions don't know. the very word Genesis means rebirth..reconstruction...regenerate...

Evolution has had the ability to provide answers where religion tells us to have faith. if you look around you it is all science. if you were hurt and needed to go to the hospital you'd want to know that the doctor that is going to be working on you knew all that he or she could in order to fix you. you can't do that with faith.

I am absolutely a monotheist, and I believe 100% in evolution.

Your belief seems to be that religion and the bible represent God. This is not the truth. Religion's purpose is to give power to priests. In ancient times the people looked toward the priests to help them understand God, the priests wrote things into the bible to give them the power.

Today some people still look to the priests for answers but many, many, more are making up their own minds about what to believe. And that is a very good thing.

The true Creator does not resemble the jealous, vindictive, angry, murdering deity that the bible and closed minded religious people attempt to present to the world.

 

[Super Universe]

So there is no bacteria on asteroids and comets or any other planets? If the enviroment is right then bacteria can form.
And why is random chaos so hard to believe? A butterfly flaping its wings can add to winds halfway across the globe and what happens when you drop stones into water? Each one has a different effect no matter how similar the rocks are - random chaos!

I have no idea whether there is bacteria on asteroids and comets. I"m sure there is bacteria on other planets.

Random chaos is not hard to believe, of course there is randomness in the universe but there is also order, great order.

Have you never seen the Milky Way?

Do you think the atoms created themselves and then created the laws which govern their formation then gave life to certain arrangements of atoms, then sentient life?

You have too much faith in rocks.

 

[lilithu]

people...people.. stay on track here..... Evolution has been proven. the existance of god has not.

Evolution is the process inwhich a thing changes.

It amazes me that people who ridicule theism as illogical belief without proof continue to make faith statements about science.

If you define evolution merely as the process of change (without naming the mechanism) then I suppose that I would agree. It's been proven that things change. However, most people nowadays when we speak of evolution are refering to the mechanism of speciation - natural selection - and that has not been proven. We've shown that natural selection can work in a controlled environment to change traits over generations. We've shown how small genetic changes can result in large morphological changes. We've shown how species in the wild can and will change traits in response to changes in the environment. And we've shown that there is paleontological evidence that is consistent with the theory of natural selection being the process of speciation. But we have not proven that natural selection is the process by which the species that evolved. It is the best scientific theory that we have to fit the facts that we have. It has predictive power. It is very likely largely correct. It is not proven.

Science is open-ended. Science is always ammenable to the possibility of theories being in need of correction. Science is not dogma, and when you make faith statements about science you turn it into dogma.

 

[James the Persian]

people...people.. stay on track here..... Evolution has been proven. the existance of god has not.

Evolution is the process inwhich a thing changes. It couldn't have been god. the christians, muslims and jews say that if god wills it all he has to do is will it. that leaves no room for evolution but monotheist can never explain why science proves them wrong on that. from the beginninig of ther bible it said there was Adam all by himself and god caused a deep sleep on him and took a rib and made a woman. Crap...Crap...Crap.... If it was god then there would be no need for the thatrics... It all soundls like some sort of surgical cloning experiment done by a team of scientist. "Let US make man in OUR image and and likeness"..... NOT "I" shall make man in "MY" image and likeness.

Monotheist can never admit evolution because it tends to break down their beliefs. The earth is much older than how the bible portrays it. This is simply because these religions don't know. the very word Genesis means rebirth..reconstruction...regenerate...

Evolution has had the ability to provide answers where religion tells us to have faith. if you look around you it is all science. if you were hurt and needed to go to the hospital you'd want to know that the doctor that is going to be working on you knew all that he or she could in order to fix you. you can't do that with faith.

This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen. I bet that if you actually asked those of us who are monotheists whether we believed in evolution you'd be shocked by the number of us that said yes. I certainly would.

There is no conflict between the mechanism of evolution and monotheism. There is a conflict if you choose to believe in a wholly literal and infallible Bible, but that's far from the majority view of monotheists. There is also a conflict with the philosophical ramifications that can lead one towards an atheistic interpretation of the mechanism, but neither the theistic nor atheistic interpretations are actually part of the science.

Face it, science and religion speak of utterly different things and neither one can ever disprove the other.

James

 

[michel]

I have some vague understanding of the theories of abiogensis (the beginning of life) but I don't fully comprehend it. And I have a PhD in biology. Without the necessary knowledge-base, as DG said the explanations won't make sense.

Wow! How are we unintelligent members supposed to cope then ????:cover:

Maybe Wiki's article on Abiogenesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis might be more adapted to those of us who haven't studied as much in depth as Lilithu......

 

[pete29]

what makes more sense, a universe where a whole lot of inert matter brought itself together and created stars and planets and atmospheres and life and intelligence. Or an omnipotent infinite being that created it all. Since inert matter cannot form itself into shoes or plates or cars wihout mans help here on earth, I have to assume that a supreme being created the universe.

 

[pete29]

people...people.. stay on track here..... Evolution has been proven. the existance of god has not.

Evolution is the process inwhich a thing changes. It couldn't have been god. the christians, muslims and jews say that if god wills it all he has to do is will it. that leaves no room for evolution but monotheist can never explain why science proves them wrong on that. from the beginninig of ther bible it said there was Adam all by himself and god caused a deep sleep on him and took a rib and made a woman. Crap...Crap...Crap.... If it was god then there would be no need for the thatrics... It all soundls like some sort of surgical cloning experiment done by a team of scientist. "Let US make man in OUR image and and likeness"..... NOT "I" shall make man in "MY" image and likeness.

Monotheist can never admit evolution because it tends to break down their beliefs. The earth is much older than how the bible portrays it. This is simply because these religions don't know. the very word Genesis means rebirth..reconstruction...regenerate...

Evolution has had the ability to provide answers where religion tells us to have faith. if you look around you it is all science. if you were hurt and needed to go to the hospital you'd want to know that the doctor that is going to be working on you knew all that he or she could in order to fix you. you can't do that with faith.

I don't know or care how God did it ,I just have faith that he did do it

 

[pete29]

the existance of God can't be proven , thats why they call it faith.