How do Abrahamic faiths tackle the problem of evil?

[MD]

We understand our suffering comes from wrong choices , which go against the will of God. Childbirth is painful too but it is not an evil thing but a good thing.

We were created for good not evil but God wanted to create a human being not a robot. Free will is a good thing but only if we turn it towards God's ways.

Childbirth isn't evil. Genocides are evil. There's a distinction.

If God created us with free will and he created everything then by turning away from God towards evil, we are still turning towards something created by God.

 

[Tumah]

So we're not really moving away from God, we're moving away from the perception of God. But again if our perception of God is lessened, and we suffer and evil exists in this removal of perception, wouldn't that mean that such things exist outside of God? Or that God has created the conditions for us to suffer when we are removed from perceiving him?

No it means that it exists outside the Perception of G-d. G-d is still equally within the "area" devoid of His Perception as He it outside it. (I edited in some more information in the post)

Also why use suffering to better the universe, when God can create a perfect universe as is? Or is God using outside forces to better the universe itself, which cannot be made perfectly?

Why not use suffering? As I explained earlier, the problem with it is only in the perception that its not good. Objectively it is good. What needs fixing is my perception of it.

But God created us. He created everything. He created all the conditions for us to suffer. Why put us through this test to better us? Wouldn't it be better to just create us to derive more enjoyment of the end result without suffering? If God created everything surely he could have created us to be happy as it is, forever and ever. There wouldn't be a need to just put us through a test. Is it necessary to feel immense pain to become more spiritual, when we could have been simply created to be more spiritual?

I didn't say "to better us". I said, to create a situation where we can derive more enjoyment out of our reward. It can be the same $500, but if I worked hard for it, I appreciate it more and this gives me more enjoyment. This logically can only occur when the concept exists and it needs to be manifest to be of value. The use of suffering itself is also as the logical antithesis of pleasure. Because the pleasure/reward is in being closer to the Perception of G-d, movement in the other direction logically should be painful.

And again, I don't see the question to begin with, because I don't believe suffering is evil. Its not pleasant, but that doesn't make it bad, that makes it not pleasant.

If you will ask if G-d is constrained by logic, then I'll say yes and no. G-d Himself is not constrained, but one of the first Causes that were caused is Wisdom. If you look at the continuum between G-d and us, as concentric circles, each progressively inner circle being caused by the outer, then one of the most outer circles has the quality of Wisdom (which inherently includes logic) and through it, that the rest of creation was caused (Pro. 8:22). Its until that point and because of that point, that we are capable of using our intelligence to interact with G-d the creation. Logic, in this respect acts as one of the constraints and dilutions that the Divine Perception goes through in order to get to us. So everything that is caused by it, is necessarily logical.

 

[MD]

Why not use suffering? As I explained earlier, the problem with it is only in the perception that its not good. Objectively it is good. What needs fixing is my perception of it.

Because it is unecessary if you're the all powerful creator of the universe. You can simply create a beautiful way to achieve something without creating suffering. To say God uses suffering to give us more reward suggests God is either evil or stupid, as he either could not have come up with a better way to bring us reward or he likes watching us in pain.

I didn't say "to better us". I said, to create a situation where we can derive more enjoyment out of our reward. It can be the same $500, but if I worked hard for it, I appreciate it more and this gives me more enjoyment. This logically can only occur when the concept exists and it needs to be manifest to be of value. The use of suffering itself is also as the logical antithesis of pleasure. Because the pleasure/reward is in being closer to the Perception of G-d, movement in the other direction logically should be painful.

And again, I don't see the question to begin with, because I don't believe suffering is evil. Its not pleasant, but that doesn't make it bad, that makes it not pleasant.

You're using human examples and analogies to define an eternal, all powerful being. Like I previously mentioned, there could be much better ways to bring about things than to induce suffering. God could have created us to appreciate anything without going through suffering. He's all powerful, he can do anything! Did God need to destroy and kill zillions of lives throughout the history of earth to produce man? Evolution occurs through changes in genetic structure, which are weeded out through death and suffering. Couldn't He have simply created man in the first place?

 

[Tumah]

Because it is unecessary if you're the all powerful creator of the universe. You can simply create a beautiful way to achieve something without creating suffering. To say God uses suffering to give us more reward suggests God is either evil or stupid, as he either could not have come up with a better way to bring us reward or he likes watching us in pain.

You're using human examples and analogies to define an eternal, all powerful being. Like I previously mentioned, there could be much better ways to bring about things than to induce suffering. God could have created us to appreciate anything without going through suffering. He's all powerful, he can do anything!

I haven't described G-d at all.
But more relevant to the point, your view on the suffering as being evil is a perception, not an objective reality. You can change your perception should you choose to. So the creation of suffering specifically says nothing good or bad about G-d. Although the creation of a tool that produces the results that suffering produces, says something good about Him.

Did God need to destroy and kill zillions of lives throughout the history of earth to produce man? Evolution occurs through changes in genetic structure, which are weeded out through death and suffering. Couldn't He have simply created man in the first place?

He did.

 

[MD]

I haven't described G-d at all.
But more relevant to the point, your view on the suffering as being evil is a perception, not an objective reality. You can change your perception should you choose to. So the creation of suffering specifically says nothing good or bad about G-d. Although the creation of a tool that produces the results that suffering produces, says something good about Him.

Well to be frank, God himself is an opinion. There's no objective proof of God, it's a subjective belief. And in a universe fully created by an omnipotent and omniscient God, no I cannot change my perception. My perception is bound to my brain, which is itself the product of evolution, nature and the environment, all a product of God. Since God has used suffering to better us, I will have to say that he is either inept at creating a better method or he's partly evil.

You cannot be all good if you use evil to create better good. You might be mostly good, but there's still a part of you that is slightly evil.

He did.

Evolution says otherwise.

Anyways I must thank you for your answers and the Judaic response. I hope to hear more from Muslim and Christian posters here.

 

[Tumah]

Well to be frank, God himself is an opinion. There's no objective proof of God, it's a subjective belief.

That's neither here nor there.

And in a universe fully created by an omnipotent and omniscient God, no I cannot change my perception. My perception is bound to my brain, which is itself the product of evolution, nature and the environment, all a product of God. Since God has used suffering to better us, I will have to say that he is either inept at creating a better method or he's partly evil.

You are demonstrably wrong. People change the way they see things all the time.
Good and evil as you are using it, are perceptions, which are products of the creation and are not usable to describe G-d Himself. So there is no basis within the framework that I've described, for your last statement.

You cannot be all good if you use evil to create better good. You might be mostly good, but there's still a part of you that is slightly evil.

This is not an argument relevant to my explanation.

Evolution says otherwise.

What you mean to say is, "our perception of history says otherwise".

Anyways I must thank you for your answers and the Judaic response. I hope to hear more from Muslim and Christian posters here.

That's what I'm here for.

 

[randomvim]

Well to be frank, God himself is an opinion. There's no objective proof of God, it's a subjective belief. And in a universe fully created by an omnipotent and omniscient God, no I cannot change my perception. My perception is bound to my brain, which is itself the product of evolution, nature and the environment, all a product of God. Since God has used suffering to better us, I will have to say that he is either inept at creating a better method or he's partly evil.

You cannot be all good if you use evil to create better good. You might be mostly good, but there's still a part of you that is slightly evil.



Evolution says otherwise.

Anyways I must thank you for your answers and the Judaic response. I hope to hear more from Muslim and Christian posters here.

1. what if this is the best method? due to our own short comings that were created by our own mistakes because the only way to love anyone is to allow them to make their own decisions - not restrict their life.

since we are not God just as I am not you . I will not know exactly what you do or why just as we might not know everything we wish to know about the universe or God.

but I'm sure this can be argued or ridiculed.

2. evolution doesn't say anything.

 

[MD]

You are demonstrably wrong. People change the way they see things all the time.
Good and evil as you are using it, are perceptions, which are products of the creation and are not usable to describe G-d Himself. So there is no basis within the framework that I've described, for your last statement.

Perceptions are facilitated by the brain. The brain can change, but changes are guided by circumstance and genetic predisposition to plasticity. It is very hard if not impossible to change some perceptions, for example how we perceive color or smell. If God is all powerful, created everything, then he basically has created the conditions to affect our perception. God can basically push us away from him and towards him according to your definition by creating the conditions himself. Not only does this remove free will, it suggests that god does not necessarily need to use suffering to affect our perception and bring us closer to him, unless that is the only way to get closer to God in Judaism, through suffering?

If God created creation, then creation is a part of him. In effect good and evil, perceptions of creation, are a part of God. And thus God cannot be all good.

 

[Tumah]

Perceptions are facilitated by the brain. The brain can change, but changes are guided by circumstance and genetic predisposition to plasticity. It is very hard if not impossible to change some perceptions, for example how we perceive color or smell.

Color and smell are chemical perceptions. Perception of events are not - although the effect of that perception is. You can't compare the two.
I really don't understand where you're coming from. People have paradigm shifts all the time. We even have a phrase for it. Paradigm shift. Its demonstrable that one can change how one perceives an event.

If God is all powerful, created everything, then he basically has created the conditions to affect our perception. God can basically push us away from him and towards him according to your definition by creating the conditions himself. Not only does this remove free will, it suggests that god does not necessarily need to use suffering to affect our perception and bring us closer to him, unless that is the only way to get closer to God in Judaism, through suffering?

Its not the only way, its one of the ways. But as you've said, do actively push or pull someone towards Him, would remove free will. I provided a solution to this in an earlier post.

If God created creation, then creation is a part of him. In effect good and evil, perceptions of creation, are a part of God. And thus God cannot be all good.

I agree and disagree. G-d has the potential for all of creation, but in its Source its undifferentiated. The analogy I can think of is the potential that my arm has to hug or hit you. The potential within me is neither "hitting potential" nor "hugging potential", its just potential. But at the same time, it can become either. So G-d is neither.

Besides for that, suffering is not inherently evil, so creating it, is not is not a testament to G-d's nature.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Childbirth isn't evil. Genocides are evil. There's a distinction.

If God created us with free will and he created everything then by turning away from God towards evil, we are still turning towards something created by God.

Your question can basically be summed up as - Why did God create us knowing we would commit atrocities, wage wars, commit genocide etc

That's a really good question and deep and it would be good to discuss it further. I'm not here to teach you but I'm happy sharing and to learn from you. I don't pretend to have an answer. Only I believe God is all good.

First one question. Would you rather have been born or not? In other words, are you happier to have lived and loved with the accompanying tests and sorrows or rather to have never known love or life at all?

 

[MD]

Your question can basically be summed up as - Why did God create us knowing we would commit atrocities, wage wars, commit genocide etc

That's a really good question and deep and it would be good to discuss it further. I'm not here to teach you but I'm happy sharing and to learn from you. I don't pretend to have an answer. Only I believe God is all good.

First one question. Would you rather have been born or not? In other words, are you happier have lived and lived with the accompanying tests and sorties or rather to have never known love or life?

No my question is, can God be good if he created us to create atrocities, wars and killing. This is nothing to do with my nature, but the nature of God. I believe God is all good, but thus I cannot believe he is omnipotent.

I don't have the answer, I just wanted some views from Abrahamics. Tumah has given me a good answer regarding Judaism's stance on this, was hoping to find others.

 

[MD]

Color and smell are chemical perceptions. Perception of events are not - although the effect of that perception is. You can't compare the two.
I really don't understand where you're coming from. People have paradigm shifts all the time. We even have a phrase for it. Paradigm shift. Its demonstrable that one can change how one perceives an event.

This is more in line with qualia and intentionality. The perception of color and smell is called qualia. The paradigm shifts have more to do with ideas and meaning, something in line with intentionality. This is more about philosophy of consciousness sorry. These things are guided by biology and environment.

Its not the only way, its one of the ways. But as you've said, do actively push or pull someone towards Him, would remove free will. I provided a solution to this in an earlier post.

Sorry could you remind me again what the solution was.

I agree and disagree. G-d has the potential for all of creation, but in its Source its undifferentiated. The analogy I can think of is the potential that my arm has to hug or hit you. The potential within me is neither "hitting potential" nor "hugging potential", its just potential. But at the same time, it can become either. So G-d is neither.

Besides for that, suffering is not inherently evil, so creating it, is not is not a testament to G-d's nature.

Actually if you believe that God created all, then you have no potential. You will either hit me or not hit me based on the culmination of all your life events that have predisposed you towards anger/violence or peace/love. Those conditions were created by God.

If God is everything, including our perceptions of good and evil, then God is at least in part good and evil. I don't understand what you mean by him being neither and an undifferentiated source?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No my question is, can God be good if he created us to create atrocities, wars and killing. This is nothing to do with my nature, but the nature of God. I believe God is all good, but thus I cannot believe he is omnipotent.

I don't have the answer, I just wanted some views from Abrahamics. Tumah has given me a good answer regarding Judaism's stance on this, was hoping to find others.

Although God created the world physically, the world we have today is not God's world but man's. The world God wants us to establish is a world free from war, genocide and killing. His Vision for us is the Kingdom of God on earth not the kingdom of man in earth but it has to be our choice.

While we don't choose His Ways we don't have God's Kingdom on earth. The suffering is caused by godlessness. The more we have God in our lives the better our world will become. We have so little of God that we suffer.

 

[MD]

Although God created the world physically, the world we have today is not God's world but man's. The world God wants us to establish is a world free from war, genocide and killing. His Vision for us is the Kingdom of God on earth not the kingdom of man in earth but it has to be our choice.

While we don't choose His Ways we don't have God's Kingdom on earth. The suffering is caused by godlessness. The more we have God in our lives the better our world will become. We have so little of God that we suffer.

If God created everything, then did He also not create war, genocide and killing? If God gave us choice to choose between good and evil, and if he created everything, then did he not create both good and evil?

If the absence of God is evil, then shouldn't it mean that evil lies outside of God? If so, doesn't that negate that God is everywhere and everything?

 

[Tumah]

This is more in line with qualia and intentionality. The perception of color and smell is called qualia. The paradigm shifts have more to do with ideas and meaning, something in line with intentionality. This is more about philosophy of consciousness sorry. These things are guided by biology and environment.

I agree with you, to a point. Most choices that occur in a person's life are determined by biology and environment (or in my theology - G-d). However, we believe there's something called "the point of choice" which is a point in a range of choices, where one is equally pulled to fulfill or transgress G-d's Will. That point is what we call "free-will" and is the basis for the reward or suffering that one receives.

Sorry could you remind me again what the solution was.

It relates to the concept of the void of G-d's Perspective and the subsequent dilution of the line of Perspective that is introduced into it.

Actually if you believe that God created all you have no potential. You will either hit me or not hit me based on the culmination of all your life events that have predisposed you towards anger/violence or peace/love. Those conditions were created by God.

As above.

If God is everything, including our perceptions of good and evil, then God is at least in part good and evil. I don't understand what you mean by him being neither and an undifferentiated source?

I'm saying that G-d isn't everything, G-d has within His Perspective, the potential for everything. A coal, is not a flame. But the potential for the existence of the fire is within the coal. A tree is not G-d. But the potential for the tree's existence at its source is within G-d's Perspective. And there its undifferentiated from the potential for every other element in creation. Its simply one potential that can be realized or manifested as everything. Its only through the step-down process of manifestation described above, the dilution of G-d's Perspective that results in differentiation of the potential into various increasingly complex elements until they eventual manifest in our world as different things.

So good and evil, in the way that you're using these terms, as part of the creation are also only within G-d's Perspective as an undifferentiated potential.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If God created everything, then did He also not create war, genocide and killing? If God gave us choice to choose between good and evil, and if he created everything, then did he not create both good and evil?

If the absence of God is evil, then shouldn't it mean that evil lies outside of God? If so, doesn't that negate that God is everywhere and everything?

A mother who gives birth to a child and then rears and educates it is not evil if the child strays from the mother's lessons and education.

 

[MD]

A mother who gives birth to a child and then rears and educates it is not evil if the child strays from the mother's lessons and education.

A mother has not created the world which makes the child suffer. A mother exists within a world that is out of her power.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A mother has not created the world which makes the child suffer. A mother exists within a world that is out of her power.

God is the Father, parent nevertheless. He only wants what's best for us but it's up to us to choose His ways or ours.

That's not His fault or making. That's why I asked, which is very relevant, would we rather have been born or not? The pain and suffering that comes with maturing is not evil. I'm glad I was born and would have been willing to accept a thousand pains for this chance at life.

Our wars and violence has been our immaturity not any inherent evil born within us.

Some try and make a case for Satan but there is no such thing. We have always had the choice to learn through God's Messengers or through suffering and we have chosen suffering. (Trial and error)

The two methods of education available to us is to trust in God or to learn through trial and error. Trial and error is not evil either but there is no devil no such evil force.

The sun only emits light not darkness.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe we possess free will. A deterministic universe negates free will because a deterministic universe suggests that causality is the essence of reality..

Ah .. so you are a "Newtonian" then, when it comes to physics. I believe that free-will and a fixed future are compatible.
The past is fixed, yet our free-will is unaffected .. our observation of "time flow" is only a perception. It's dependent on the observer.

 

[MD]

Ah .. so you are a "Newtonian" then, when it comes to physics. I believe that free-will and a fixed future are compatible.
The past is fixed, yet our free-will is unaffected .. our observation of "time flow" is only a perception. It's dependent on the observer.

I am not a determinist becuase I don't believe in an all powerful God. However if I did then I would be a fatalist.

Causality is strong and in a universe fully guided by God, there can be no room for chance.