How do Baha'is and Ahmadi Muslims relate to each other?

[CG Didymus]

The founder of every religion has a special relationship with humanity and our spiritual evolution. Virtually everyone believe that their belief is 'true' in one way or another. It depends on how 'true' and exclusive the belief system claims in relationship to those who believe differently.

Obviously, Baha'is would not "trash" another person's beliefs, but some of these founders of religious movements are dangerous, and, by some people, considered frauds and conmen. But most all of them have very different and opposing views as to truth and God and everything else. Baha'is can spin their magic to make the "major" religions seem to agree and be from one source, God, but what about these other smaller movements? I'm sure some go as far to say that they are the return of some great leader or prophet or even one of the people Baha'is call "manifestations".

So what do the Baha'is say about the founder of Ahmadi's? Can't some of these people just be people? People that had some sort of "revelation" and thought they were special? 'Cause if not, why are they so absolutely different in their beliefs? An example I'm a little more familiar with would be the Mormons. All and all great people, but do I believe all the things they teach? No. But Baha'i try and squeeze them into the mix also. How do they fit? Their teachings have Jesus coming to America. Who, other than Mormons, would believe that really happened? And that is what I'm wondering about the Ahmadi's. I'm sure they have made claims and have teachings that go counter to what the Baha'i Faith teaches. Are they right or wrong?

 

[arthra]

So what do the Baha'is say about the founder of Ahmadi's? Can't some of these people just be people? People that had some sort of "revelation" and thought they were special? 'Cause if not, why are they so absolutely different in their beliefs? An example I'm a little more familiar with would be the Mormons. All and all great people, but do I believe all the things they teach? No. But Baha'i try and squeeze them into the mix also. How do they fit? Their teachings have Jesus coming to America. Who, other than Mormons, would believe that really happened? And that is what I'm wondering about the Ahmadi's. I'm sure they have made claims and have teachings that go counter to what the Baha'i Faith teaches. Are they right or wrong?

One interesting point you bring up is that Mormons "...have Jesus coming to America." Ahmadis believe Jesus survived the crucifixion and travelled to Kashmir..

As Baha'is we believe Jesus was crucified and died on the cross but that He was spiritually resurrected.

Are there "differences"? Yes. But as Baha'is we look for what we have in common with Ahmadis and Mormons rather than focus on the differences. I've attended Ahmadi conferences that were open on the subjects we can agree upon.

Generally we don't "squeeze them into a mix" We can have dialogue on topics where we share an interest.

 

[Jim]

How do they relate to each other, or how have they related to each other over the past 150 years?

One way to answer that question might be to search for “Ahmadiyya” on Baha’i websites, and “Baha’i “ on Ahmadi websites.

 

[Jim]

Here’s what the official Ahmadiyya website says about the Baha’i Faith:

The Babi and Baha'i Religion | Islam Ahmadiyya

 

[Jim]

Here’s what the official Baha’i Faith website says about Ahmadiyya Islam:

“No matches for Ahmadiyya”

 

[Jim]

Try this search:
ahmadiyya site:Bahai forums.com

 

[shunyadragon]

Here’s what the official Ahmadiyya website says about the Baha’i Faith:

The Babi and Baha'i Religion | Islam Ahmadiyya

One point of a difference is clear from the source The claim that of Islam Ahmadiyya is they believe the "Quran and Islamic Sharia are irreplaceable."

 

[shunyadragon]

Obviously, Baha'is would not "trash" another person's beliefs, but some of these founders of religious movements are dangerous, and, by some people, considered frauds and conmen. But most all of them have very different and opposing views as to truth and God and everything else. Baha'is can spin their magic to make the "major" religions seem to agree and be from one source, God, but what about these other smaller movements? I'm sure some go as far to say that they are the return of some great leader or prophet or even one of the people Baha'is call "manifestations".

So what do the Baha'is say about the founder of Ahmadi's? Can't some of these people just be people? People that had some sort of "revelation" and thought they were special? 'Cause if not, why are they so absolutely different in their beliefs? An example I'm a little more familiar with would be the Mormons. All and all great people, but do I believe all the things they teach? No. But Baha'i try and squeeze them into the mix also. How do they fit? Their teachings have Jesus coming to America. Who, other than Mormons, would believe that really happened? And that is what I'm wondering about the Ahmadi's. I'm sure they have made claims and have teachings that go counter to what the Baha'i Faith teaches. Are they right or wrong?

No magic needed here and you can put away your magic wand and fairy dust.

Actually, the Baha'i Faith does not propose that the major, and even lesser Revelations and religions agree or are the same. As a matter of fact they do not for various reasons. First, religions definitely do become corrupted by human influence and culture they originate. The scripture, ie the Bible, does contain both Revelation from God, ancient mythology, and human beliefs, view of science, and actions that reflect the time they were revealed. Religion is progressive and evolves as humanity spiritually and physically evolves.

Based on the Torah I could conclude that Judaism is polytheistic or henotheistic religion. Is that the same religion as Judaism today?

Your posts in this thread reflect misinformation, false statements, dripping with sarcasm, and misunderstanding of both the Baha'i Faith and Islam Ahmadiyya.

Simply exploring the factual differences and similarities between the Baha'i Faith and Islam Ahmadiyya would be a more objective less biased approach, and I believe these questions have been answered.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder how much of an official stance either of the two faiths have on the matter of disagreements.

As noted (and it really is a plain fact) Ahmadiyya Islaam disagrees with other sects of Islaam on, at a minimum, the matter of the Mahdi and some interpretations of the Qur'an. And while it does respect other creeds, it will also disagree with those to an even greater extent.

The same is even more true of the Bahai Faith, as well admitted by the Bahais themselves. But I get the sense that for Bahais the divergence of doctrines is somewhat better expected and not all that serious an issue.

How much of a divergence is supposed to be an issue, in any case? It seems to me that the actual doctrine does not have to feel a lot of impact from matters that are fairly theological in nature, up to and including matters about the existence and nature of Jesus, Buddha and Krishna.

 

[duvduv]

The Baha'i Faith is not a Western influenced pacifist movement, and the religion of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad considers themselves Muslims, and likewise not a Western influenced pacifist movement. They may be described objectively as belief systems in their own right whether you agree with their beliefs or not, and should not be stereotyped from a biased perspective.

Would than the State of Israel be best described as a Western Zionist Nationalist militant Jewish movement?

Yes, thé phenomenon of the State of Israel is mired in a web of 19th century European nationalism, eastern European Jewish xenophobia and paranoia, and colonialist paternalistic racism and atheism. It's quite a combination....

 

[LuisDantas]

Not saying that I agree with the rest of that idea, but where would atheism enter the mix?

 

[shunyadragon]

Not saying that I agree with the rest of that idea, but where would atheism enter the mix?

In another thread.. The Baha'i Faith and Ahmadis believe in an apophatic unknowable God, and not the anthropomorphic Cataphatic God of Christianity. The argument of atheism vs. the Baha'i and Ahmadis belief in God would be a different subject.

 

[LuisDantas]

In another thread.. The Baha'i Faith and Ahmadis believe in an apophatic unknowable God, and not the anthropomorphic Cataphatic God of Christianity.

Not all Christians are necessarily aboard that variety of belief, but I think I see your point.

The argument of atheism vs. the Baha'i and Ahmadis belief in God would be a different subject.

I would say so!

 

[paarsurrey]

It's an interesting question since both fit into the same category vis a vis being offshoots of Shi'ism and standing in contrast to canonical Sunni Islam.
How do they relate to each other, or how have they related to each other over the past 150 years?
Are they also both today merely international social service movements, the eastern version of the Salvation Army and the Unitarian church??

Sorry, it is one's wrong understanding.

Ahmadiyya peaceful Islam is not an off-shoot of the Shi'ism, though we respect the twelve Imams of Shia. We are firm believers of Muhammad and his virtuous successors/caliphs namely Abu Bakr, Umer, Usman and Ali.

We are most close to the Sunnis as we name our fiqh as "Fiqh Ahmadiyya Hanifia"

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually, Ahmadiyya Islaam originated from Sunni Islaam, not Shia.

Your understanding is correct.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It's mutually, 'We're right, they're wrong." I'm willing to bet on this, and I'm not a gambler.

We support anything of the Bahais which we think is correct but present our own view-point with reasons where they are wrong. This is our attitude towards every religion/sect/denomination and even non-religions or non-believers. Is it wrong, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Ahmadis as I understand it are Muslims while Baha'i Faith is an independent religion.

Baha'is have their own calendar and Holy Days as well as different sites of pilgrimage.

The Baha'i Writings were revealed by the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad) 1844 - 1850 and Baha'u'llah (Mirza Husayn Ali) 1853 - 1892 with authorized interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

See:

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

You can learn more about the Baha'i Faith

What Bahá’ís Believe | The Bahá’í Faith

as well the Baha'i Faith section on this forum:

Baha'i Faith DIR

"Ahmadis as I understand it are Muslims while Baha'i Faith is an independent religion." Unquote

It is true.
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

We support anything of the Bahais which we think is correct but present our own view-point with reasons where they are wrong.

i don't think it's helpful to say anyone is wrong, because it sets up conflict, and creates hard feelings. But it's okay to say, "my belief is different." Perhaps that is what you meant.

When I say I disagree with someone, it's not that I'm saying they are wrong. I'm saying we see things differently. But of course, unless one goes into a detailed explanation of this, many people accuse you of saying they're wrong, because they get on the defensive, or have a mentality of only 2 choices, not many. I get accused this way all the time, but it's okay.

 

[LuisDantas]

We are most close to the Sunnis as we name our fiqh as "Fiqh Ahmadiyya Hanifia"

Allow me to verify an understanding or three?

Word has it that "Fiqh" means "Islamic Jurisprudence".

"Hanif" seems to mean "reversion to the beliefs of Ibrahim", presumably implying letting go of idolatry as it is understood in Islam. It seems to me to have a touch of "truth" in its meaning as well, perhaps not unlike "Shin" in Japanese.

And Ahamadiyya, I am told, is a reference to "Ahmad", which is another traditional name for Muhammad the Prophet. Of course, it is also the name of your branch of Islam.

Summing it all up, you seem to be telling us that your religious jurisprudence is named for its intent to go back to the pure beliefs of Muhammad. Does that sound accurate to you?

I do not doubt that some of that indicates proximity to the Sunni, but it is not clear to me what it would be, nor why.

 

[CG Didymus]

One interesting point you bring up is that Mormons "...have Jesus coming to America." Ahmadis believe Jesus survived the crucifixion and travelled to Kashmir..

As Baha'is we believe Jesus was crucified and died on the cross but that He was spiritually resurrected.

Are there "differences"? Yes. But as Baha'is we look for what we have in common with Ahmadis and Mormons rather than focus on the differences. I've attended Ahmadi conferences that were open on the subjects we can agree upon.

Generally we don't "squeeze them into a mix" We can have dialogue on topics where we share an interest.

Looking for commonalities is very commendable, but, ultimately, the religions have to face their differences also. They can't be completely ignored can they?