How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[Forgemaster]

My goodness! The account tells you (Genesis 3:1-6). Because the Devil, who was using the serpent (Revelation 12:9), misled and lied to Eve, telling her they'd be like God.



Excuse me? Are you saying we shouldn't punish people when they know what they've done is bad? Because that's what you've just asked!


No, they were designed with perfect bodies, probably with rejuvenating telomeres, made to live forever,

The serpent said they would be like God, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL, if they already knew it why even have the temptation to eat the fruit in ththe first place? They disobeyed your God yes but it's not like it helped them out in any way so why punish them. They ate a fruit off of a tree! So why would animals die? Death was a punishment, God killed the first animal.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is indeed a very strong logical flaw in Christian theology imho. It is clear that God, when defined as an omniscient and omnipotent creator of all existence, must of course be fully responsible for the state of existence in which all living beings find themselves in.

I like this statement. Made me come to an analogy in human-to-human terms - that this is no different than the boss at your workplace being held accountable for the actions of his subordinates. Even if God has no superior, that doesn't matter. The President of a company (who has no superior within the company) IS ALSO ACCOUNTABLE for the continued state of the company. I don't know that anyone would argue otherwise. This is a simple tenet of conducting business. Do we not hold our residing president/leader accountable? Do the citizens of a country under a dictatorship not ultimately hold the dictator responsible for the state of some aspects of the country's welfare? If not, then why have there ever been any uprisings against such powers? Is it wrong to ever "rise up" and question the authority? I would say that no... no it is definitely not wrong, and in some cases is all too warranted.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I think it's an interesting question. What do you think, Can the potter murder the clay?

This is NOT an interesting question, as it is posed here. The analogy is awful. Does clay live and breathe? Think? Feel? Does pain enter into the equation upon the "murder" of clay? Pain not only of the clay itself, but all of its' clay friends? We're not talking about baubles you set on the shelf for display. We're talking about human beings, of which you and I happen to be members. We are ABLE to ask the questions - and why not ask them?

As a father I welcome any question my children may have for me, and there have been times I have had to come to an understanding that some actions I undertook were not fair to the child, whom I love and respect to an enormous degree. The words, and even JUDGMENTS, of my children to me are, therefore, extremely important to me in order to be able to make sure that I am doing the best job I can in raising and fostering them. Does God not also feel this way? If He does not then I would state that He does not care about us. Perhaps we are "just as clay" to Him. And if that is the case then there IS NO REASON TO PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO HIM. I don't care if He created me - and I don't care what He feels is adequate punishment for my "crime" of disbelief. He supposedly has every opportunity to hear me out and course-correct our relationship. That He apparently refuses (or, more likely, because He's not there) forces my hand. I can't care about Him. There is no reason to.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hi there Buttercup,



This is indeed a very strong logical flaw in Christian theology imho. It is clear that God, when defined as an omniscient and omnipotent creator of all existence, must of course be fully responsible for the state of existence in which all living beings find themselves in.

All arguments to the contrary that I've seen are fallacious. The "who are you to judge God" argument, the "good can't exist without evil" argument, and others are all fundamentally flawed viewpoints when examined more closely. The only two reasonable conclusions we can draw are that this deity is either (a) insane or (b) malevolent. Otherwise, we must abandon God's claim to omniscience and/or omnipotence.

If I, a mere human, can easily think of better ways to have created a universe and sentient species to inhabit it, all the more reason to believe an infinitely superior mind should not have had any trouble thinking of a better way. Alas, given such a deity exists, it has clearly failed to do so.

In discussions of God's omniscience, why does It always have to include 'knowledge of the future'? Isn't knowing everything in the past and present, enough? Must He also have a "time machine"?

There are many accounts and passages in the Bible that clearly indicate Jehovah God doesn't have that ability.

For example: with Jonah and the Ninevites; with the Earth's population, before the Flood; and several times with His people, Israel.

The accounts say He "felt regret"; that He was "hurt ar His heart"; regarding His people, "they pained the Holy One of Israel."

This informs us that God didn't know what was coming. Unless He's a sadist. Or a masochist. No, He is a God of love.

 

[Buttercup]

In discussions of God's omniscience, why does It always have to include 'knowledge of the future'? Isn't knowing everything in the past and present, enough? Must He also have a "time machine"?

There are many accounts and passages in the Bible that clearly indicate Jehovah God doesn't have that ability.

God, the creator, as described in the bible, absolutely has the power of omniscience as defined as future knowledge. He created the universal plan for salvation and it was his goal from the beginning. He had to know each and every outcome beforehand. There are many verses that describe how God knows our thoughts and actions before we're even born. The dude is definitely omniscient in the sense of being able to see into the future. No question.

 

[prometheus11]

If my clay figurine could move and think and understand, and I told it that hopping on one leg was "evil, and then I hopped on one leg every other afternoon, I'd expect it to wonder if I was being evil.

 

[Muffled]

I was a devoted Christian for a very long time, 25 years or more - a Trinity believing Protestant taught that our creator God is omniscient (all-knowing) omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). This creator designed and created men and women fully and completely all by 'himself'.

What I don't understand, is if this creator purposefully designed and unleashed upon the earth a creature capable of rape and murder, why isn't 'He' to blame for these atrocities? Why would you construct a being with the potential to do so much harm to his fellow humans? What was the motive?

If my son murdered a human and I supplied the gun knowing ahead of time he'd shoot someone, I'm held accountable for my part in the homicide. How much more so should God be held accountable for DESIGNING a creature that he KNOWS ahead of time (he's omniscient, remember) will murder a fellow human?

I believe it is more interesting to have mayhem in the world and God is certainly capable of eliminating evil and give people a rest from it. Even so it is still people choosing to do evil and not God Himself.

 

[prometheus11]

In discussions of God's omniscience, why does It always have to include 'knowledge of the future'? Isn't knowing everything in the past and present, enough? Must He also have a "time machine"?

There are many accounts and passages in the Bible that clearly indicate Jehovah God doesn't have that ability.

For example: with Jonah and the Ninevites; with the Earth's population, before the Flood; and several times with His people, Israel.

The accounts say He "felt regret"; that He was "hurt ar His heart"; regarding His people, "they pained the Holy One of Israel."

This informs us that God didn't know what was coming. Unless He's a sadist. Or a masochist. No, He is a God of love.

If you don't know the future than you don't know "everything," and aren't, therefore, omniscient.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Not accepted. You're dancing and dodging. The simplest reading is that the tree of knowledge of good and evil iwas the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I'm not dodging anything. It's the truth (about languages); many are aware of that. As I pointed out, they did become aware of something.....their nakedness. And remember, Satan telling Eve that she'd get "the very knowledge of God," was how he misled her, he lied to her. Satan was the (first) liar, not God. (John 8:44)

"I have no compulsion to make out God to be either stupid or a liar."

Are you sure? I hope so!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Scripture says something else entirely.

Well then, you tell me, please.

 

[prometheus11]

I'm not dodging anything. It's the truth (about languages); many are aware of that. As I pointed out, they did become aware of something.....their nakedness. And remember, Satan telling Eve that she'd get "the very knowledge of God," was how he misled her, he lied to her. Satan was the (first) liar, not God. (John 8:44)

"I have no compulsion to make out God to be either stupid or a liar."

Are you sure? I hope so!

You can't read Genesis chapter three and claim something completely different than what it says. .... Well, you can, and do.

The questions I have asked you are just "fill in the blank" from that text, and you disagree with words attributed to God in that text.

Why?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If you don't know the future than you don't know "everything," and aren't, therefore, omniscient.

That's not the way it's used in many novels, is it?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

In discussions of God's omniscience, why does It always have to include 'knowledge of the future'? Isn't knowing everything in the past and present, enough? Must He also have a "time machine"? ... No, He is a God of love.

Doesn't have to include "knowledge of the future." For instance, in the here and now (supposing He exists) He knows He's going to condemn me for not believing. However, if you care to read my post a few above this one, you'll see where I point out that He is no father of any importance because He does not take our relationship seriously. Being a father I know what it means to BE A FATHER. And I will adamantly state that a relationship with God is absolutely nothing like the relationship I have with my children. For one (as stated above), I DO hold myself accountable, and I DO encourage my children to question me - and I am there for them with reasoning and real advisement on the issues surrounding the health and welfare of our relationship. I know I will make mistakes, and I am quick to seek my children's forgiveness and agreement on a plan to correct any such course-errors moving forward. I WORK at it - and not through some third party - not by "sending witnesses" to my children to have those witnesses relay how "great" I am. No - I AM THERE IN PERSON, and always will be. Anything less, and you are no father.

 

[Muffled]

Moral high-ground? Is that something that only an all powerful being can wield because it can force anyone and anything to do what it pleases?
Sounds more like an abuse of power.

I believe it is only an abuse of power if the person does not have a right to wield it.

 

[Buttercup]

I believe it is more interesting to have mayhem in the world and God is certainly capable of eliminating evil and give people a rest from it. Even so it is still people choosing to do evil and not God Himself.

You believe it is more "interesting" to have mayhem and murder in the world. Well, then, this is the God for you because he designed humans to have the option of using murder and malicious intent. Welcome to the game.

 

[Muffled]

You believe it is more "interesting" to have mayhem and murder in the world. Well, then, this is the God for you because he designed humans to have the option of using murder and malicious intent. Welcome to the game.

I believe it helps to have the right God. I have no interest in the god who promotes mayhem all the time. The game is fun unless you are on the wrong end of the stick.

 

[prometheus11]

That's not the way it's used in many novels, is it?

No idea.

Are you saying that future events are not part of "everything?"

What do you not include in the term "everything?"

 

[Neo Deist]

No, He is a God of love.

In the NT perhaps.

In the OT God was jealous, vindictive, diabolical, vain, a murderer and a dictator.

 

[prometheus11]

I believe it helps to have the right God. I have no interest in the god who promotes mayhem all the time. The game is fun unless you are on the wrong end of the stick.

Isn't God powerful enough to make both "ends of the stick" good?

 

[Muffled]

Isn't God powerful enough to make both "ends of the stick" good?

What would be the fun in that?