How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[prometheus11]

What would be the fun in that?

Isn't God powerful enough to make it fun?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Doesn't have to include "knowledge of the future." For instance, in the here and now (supposing He exists) He knows He's going to condemn me for not believing. However, if you care to read my post a few above this one, you'll see where I point out that He is no father of any importance because He does not take our relationship seriously. Being a father I know what it means to BE A FATHER. And I will adamantly state that a relationship with God is absolutely nothing like the relationship I have with my children. For one (as stated above), I DO hold myself accountable, and I DO encourage my children to question me - and I am there for them with reasoning and real advisement on the issues surrounding the health and welfare of our relationship. I know I will make mistakes, and I am quick to seek my children's forgiveness and agreement on a plan to correct any such course-errors moving forward. I WORK at it - and not through some third party - not by "sending witnesses" to my children to have those witnesses relay how "great" I am. No - I AM THERE IN PERSON, and always will be. Anything less, and you are no father.

It seems you have given this a lot of thought....that's good. And you sound like a great father!
If you are honest and sincere regarding this topic, and would like to know why He has stayed out of human affairs (except with His people), the following two articles may help to explain some things.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007680#h=1:0-6:20

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007681#h=1:0-29:33

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It seems you have given this a lot of thought....that's good. And you sound like a great father!
If you are honest and sincere regarding this topic, and would like to know why He has stayed out of human affairs (except with His people), the following two articles may help to explain some things.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007680#h=1:0-6:20

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007681#h=1:0-29:33

Nothing I haven't seen/heard/read before, and I find none of it compelling. As long as God relegates His (supposed) interactions with me to "witnesses" He will be no "father" of mine. It really ends there.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

God, the creator, as described in the bible, absolutely has the power of omniscience as defined as future knowledge. He created the universal plan for salvation and it was his goal from the beginning. He had to know each and every outcome beforehand. There are many verses that describe how God knows our thoughts and actions before we're even born. The dude is definitely omniscient in the sense of being able to see into the future. No question.

So, you discount the Scriptures where He felt regret, etc.? He's a sadist, then? I wonder who's right, you or me?

You said: "There are many verses that describe how God knows our thoughts and actions before we're even born." Many, huh? Our thoughts before birth? Where?

What God can do is maneuver people and events in certain ways, to accomplish His purpose.

Yes, He can see how we're going to turn out, due to reading what's in our heart, and seeing our actions.

To a degree, I bet you can, too. You see a person drinking while driving, and you think: "They're going to get in an accident."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Nothing I haven't seen/heard/read before, and I find none of it compelling. As long as God relegates His (supposed) interactions with me to "witnesses" He will be no "father" of mine. It really ends there.

Did you even read what's in those links? I doubt you've read it before. Because, it's like nothing you will find in Christendom!

The Bible really says that Satan is in control of this Earth right now. (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) Wouldn't you like to know why God is letting that happen?

 

[Katzpur]

I give up. We're just running circles around each other and aren't able to get past the free will hurdle. It's ok. Thanks for participating!

I just read this post of yours. I know it wasn't directed to me, but I suspect you'll be saying the same thing to me pretty soon:

Anyone I've known who's a serious adherent to reincarnation doesn't believe you can come back as a chimp (dang). Basically, your spirit is always the same but each time you chose to come back to the earth plain, your motive is to continue to perfect your spirit toward being all good or pure. Sounds like LDS doctrine teaches you only visit earth once instead of multiple times?

That's right.

I'm skipping over the paragraph before this one below because while it was very interesting, I'm wanting to stick as much to the OP as possible. Thanks for some background on doctrine and LDS theology and I hope we can pick that up in another thread.

That's fine. I don't expect you to comment on every paragraph. Just realize that I didn't post anything that I didn't believe to have some bearing on the OP and why I believe as I do. I feel as if you're maybe so entrenched in what you were taught, while you were a part of mainstream Christianity, to believe, that you're having a hard time getting past it and remembering that God didn't created us simply to fulfil His need for entertainment. He didn't put us down here without our wholehearted agreement. We were excited for the opportunity because we knew that, no matter what we might have to endure here on earth, it would be worth it in the end. We weren't born condemned, held accountable for something Adam did. We were born pure and clean.

I'm not proposing a God should step in and do anything. I'm more concerned with the original design of humans - the behavioral choices He modeled and expected to be used.

Okay, I see what you're saying. You're saying we are flawed from the get-go. You don't think we should be capable of doing the horrendous things we as humans sometimes do. But what is the alternative? We either have free will or we don't. Because if we have free will, but can only take our bad choices so far, then God would have to step in and stop us when we crossed the line, wouldn't He? If we were programmed to do only good, how would anything we did be a meaningful choice?

If God wants us to experience sorrow so that we can also experience the opposite emotion of joy, do you think it's necessary to allow a scenario where parents are overjoyed at the birth of their daughter and then experience extreme sorrow when their child is murdered?

I think it's "necessary" in the way I just tried to explain in my last paragraph. Believe me, I believe that God, too, experiences extreme sorrow when one of His children takes the life of another, but you just can't get around that being a possibility as long as you allow free will. Or, if you can, I haven't figured out how. Maybe you can think it through and explain it to me.

It's sad enough when a loved one dies from natural causes, we experience sorrow then. Why design a human being who harms another human by murder? It seems way over the top as far as design. It's more like God wanted to create a monster. Because, he DID design us with that capacity. Sure, it's choice and free will but the murder button was designed into the object - man.

Yes, I agree that it's heartbreaking. I simply don't know how God could have accomplished His purpose for mankind had He programmed us to do only good, or maybe just a little bit of bad. And how much bad would we be permitted to do? Wouldn't that be an entirely arbitrary decision on His part anyway?

Most Christians will insist that God created Eden as a place where there would be only good, and that it was God's intention that Adam and Eve stay there forever. They seem to think that Adam somehow threw a glitch into God's plan and that God had to engage in some kind of frantic damage control when they ate the forbidden fruit. For this reason, they see Adam and Eve as horrible people who brought everything bad upon humanity. Mormons see it in exactly the opposite light. We believe their actions resulted in God's plan for humanity to unfold exactly as He knew it would and exactly as He knew was necessary in order for them to ultimately become like Him. They weren't going to do that wandering around Eden picking flowers all day every day for eternity. (I taught a lesson in the LDS women's auxiliary recently on the subject. I'm tempted to post it in the LDS DIR, so as not to disrupt this thread. It may possibly shed some more light on God and help you to see Him as a less despicable creature than you do. )

If God's motive was to create this fallen world where men and women are to learn various lessons to eventually become more pure and perfect like HIM, it seems as though he really enjoyed tweaking the game to include lots of twists and turns that aren't very fun for us. I understand that it's necessary (sometimes) to experience sorrow to appreciate joy. I get it. I've been there. However, to some, the Abrahamic God seems like a sadistic megalomaniac. I don't see how anyone, Christian or not, cannot agree that God designed man to murder. Yes, it's a choice to murder, but he allows us to have that choice. I can't forgive Him for that. I don't really know what to say about other forms of evil or violence there are too many to contemplate. I'm just a one trick pony in this thread, I guess. I'm only concerned that we can take a precious life away from someone else. It's horrible.

I don't think He enjoys seeing us suffer. That much I can say with confidence. I just think it's sometimes necessary that it happen. I'll give you what is probably a very poor analogy, but maybe you'll take something of value from it. Imagine a one-year-old child who has grown to fully trust his mother to care for him and protect him from harm. One day his mother takes him to the doctor's office and holds him still while someone jabs a long needle into his little thigh. He screams in pain, completely baffled by this inexplicable behavior of the one person he would never have expected this from. His mother tries to comfort him and tells him that everything's going to be okay. He needed to go through this painful experience in order that some greater good would take place years down the road. Of course, at a year old, he is absolutely incapable of understanding her explanation. If he could express himself in words, he'd probably call her a "sadistic megalomaniac."

To me, the bottom line is that life without free will would be pointless. Yes, some people will undoubtedly abuse the gift horribly, but if God were to take it away from us, what point would there even be for us to experience life? Anyway, that's my best shot. I don't suppose it will change a thing, but thank you for reading anyway.

 

[Buttercup]

You said: "There are many verses that describe how God knows our thoughts and actions before we're even born." Many, huh? Our thoughts before birth? Where?

What God can do is maneuver people and events in certain ways, to accomplish His purpose.

Yes, He can see how we're going to turn out, due to reading what's in our heart, and seeing our actions.

To a degree, I bet you can, too. You see a person drinking while driving, and you think: "They're going to get in an accident."

The Abrahamic God clearly knows the future. Here are a few verses that prove my statement, there are plenty more. I have to get to work now. See you later.

Psalm 139 - "Lord, you have examined me and know all about me.
You know when I sit down and when I get up. You know my thoughts before I think them.
You know where I go and where I lie down.You know everything I do. Lord, even before I say a word, you already know it" = Omniscience (knowing the future)

Matthew 5:8 - "Don't be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him." = Omniscience (knowing the future)

Genesis 3:5 - "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."= Omniscience (knowing the future)

1 Samuel 23:12 - Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.” = Omniscience (knowing the future)

Jeremiah 1:5 - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” = Omniscience (knowing the future)

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Did you even read what's in those links? I doubt you've read it before. Because, it's like nothing you will find in Christendom!

The Bible really says that Satan is in control of this Earth right now. (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) Wouldn't you like to know why God is letting that happen?

I did read much of what was in the links... but because IT WAS SO SIMILAR TO SO MUCH I HAVE HEARD/READ BEFORE, I have to admit I did stop short. I don't need to read it. It is nothing more than clap-trap for Christian-bent minds. You think it is "new" for someone to claim that Satan is the cause of the Earth's woes? Also, like so much else I blatantly ignore, it all assumes the authority of The Bible is proper and complete, and therefore has nothing more to substantiate its claims than what is put forth in the text. I too, could write a "spiritual" book - containing any fanciful thing my little, special-snowflake heart desired - and then quote it like mad any time anyone questioned me. Does this make me or my text automatically correct? Not by a long shot.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I did read much of what was in the links... but because IT WAS SO SIMILAR TO SO MUCH I HAVE HEARD/READ BEFORE, I have to admit I did stop short. I don't need to read it. It is nothing more than clap-trap for Christian-bent minds. You think it is "new" for someone to claim that Satan is the cause of the Earth's woes? Also, like so much else I blatantly ignore, it all assumes the authority of The Bible is proper and complete, and therefore has nothing more to substantiate its claims than what is put forth in the text. I too, could write a "spiritual" book - containing any fanciful thing my little, special-snowflake heart desired - and then quote it like mad any time anyone questioned me. Does this make me or my text automatically correct? Not by a long shot.

You think the Bible is hooey. Mahatma Gandhi didn't think so. He said, if people followed Jesus' counsel in his Sermon on the Mount, it would 'solve the world's problems' -- and that's only 3 pages in the bible!

Application of the principles found in Philippians 2:3-4....Proverbs 15:1....James 1:19, etc., builds good relationships within families, heck, good relationships with anyone.

This is just some evidence of its divine origin; the prophecies in the past are debatable, I know, but the prophecies being fulfilled today (Isaiah 2:1-4 [Keep in mind, it's the "Monutain of Jehovah", not Christ]; Matthew 24:1-14 [Please note vs.14. What's the Kingdom, what "good news" is there about it, and who is 'preaching' it?]), can't be denied by open-minded people....although the Bible prophesied it would be, by scoffers with their own agenda.-- 2 Peter 3:3-6.

Plus, if you don't want to understand the Scriptures, Jesus said you won't: you will not be able to! -- Luke 10:21. Only people themselves can change their own heart....Jehovah won't force them to.

I'm a father, too. But I'm willing to understand why God is staying away, physically, and I still consider him a good Father, giving us this wonderful Earth, and the great food it produces. (Although I accept the guidance from Jehovah God's Word, so I feel he is close to me. -- Acts 17:26-27.)

Best wishes, and take care!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No idea.

Are you saying that future events are not part of "everything?"

What do you not include in the term "everything?"

Everything known. Why is that not sufficient? That's a lot!

 

[prometheus11]

Everything known. Why is that not sufficient? That's a lot!

It's not everything, no.

Did you read Buttercup's post above?

(Post #247)

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You think the Bible is hooey.

But I don't think The Bible is "hooey." It has a lot of good knowledge in it, sound reasoning when it comes to resolving life's difficulties or in imparting wisdom as to how you should treat your fellow man to keep yourself happy and free of guilt and suffering - it contains some of the most well-known analogies and "parables" of all time. But there is much of it outside of the parts that give that advice that attempt to pass off things as "truth" that I find to be incredulous accounts of fantasy and general ridiculousness. I feel as though it is be possible for one to wade through the fluff and self-aggrandizing that The Bible brings upon itself and find the nuggets of wisdom that truly lie within - but that is not how it is used, nor how it is sold. It ends up being such a drown-out hodgepodge for me that I finally resolved to simply not bother with it. You (and Mahatma Gandhi) can have all the problem in the world with my decision - but your displeasure, or disappointment won't ever change the fact that I have no problem with my decision.

This is just some evidence of its divine origin... can't be denied by open-minded people....although the Bible prophesied it would be, by scoffers with their own agenda.-- 2 Peter 3:3-6.

Plus, if you don't want to understand the Scriptures, Jesus said you won't: you will not be able to! -- Luke 10:21.

This is the worst sort of attempt at "reverse psychology" and it is used by the faithful all the time. It really needs to stop. It is an insult to a person's intelligence to make them think you can trick them like a child in this manner. "Ah ha! See? God said your type wouldn't want to read the scriptures, and here you are, not reading them. See? God IS real! You're really only proving his existence by doing exactly what He said!" I've used this method of debate/attack myself - but only whenever I purposefully want to get someone's goat and tick them off. That is, honestly, all it is really good for. And yes - even The Bible goes there.

...giving us this wonderful Earth, and the great food it produces...

One note about the "food" - do you pray over your meals? If you do - do you know where the food you have prepared comes from? Whether or not, for instance, migrant workers - working for a terrible wage, possibly not on the books so that the employer can pay them absolute dirt and treat them like garbage - picked the vegetables? How the animals (God's animals) were treated from birth until death - in the case of pigs, very likely locked tight inside a cage, never having set foot on grass, in the case of cows - treading in their own feces their entire lives, eating a substance (grain) that would have killed them if it weren't slowly introduced into their system to give them a tolerance (because it's cheaper, faster, and makes the meat taste better, of course), in the case of dairy cows, forcefully impregnated, then locked inside a cell of a machine that connects to them with a hose - their baby calf stolen from them in order to allow us to steal the milk. They don't really see freedom either for mass-produced milk. And then they too are slaughtered with zero compassion. This is the majority of meat/dairy produced we're talking about here - not the exception - and these are only a few examples of the complete and utter HORROR used in the providence of meat/dairy all across the U.S., and as more countries develop - the world. Do you believe that God approves of any of that? That He accepts your thanking Him for the meal when it was brought to you with more pain and suffering wrought along the way than you can ever imagine?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In the NT perhaps.

In the OT God was jealous, vindictive, diabolical, vain, a murderer and a dictator.

Are you referring to the Flood?

The Apostle Peter said, "Noah was a preacher." On top of building the Ark, he witnessed to those people telling them what God was going to do, giving them a chance. (Why should they have listened? 1: Because of Genesis 6:1-4(?)....angel/human hybrid DNA was polluting the human race, producing what/who were called the Nephilim. These giants were bullies, taking what they wanted....violence was everywhere! 2: Noah didn't have to gather all the animals, they "came to" him! That was evidence of God's direction, that He was behind all of this.)

What about God killing Pharaoh and the Egyptians? Once you saw, as Moses said, the frogs, the gnats, and the darkness, coming over the entire land, would you have kept obstinate? (Not me! I would have let the Israelites go, maybe, after Moses' staff becoming a snake ate the others!) See, they were given a chance, with powerful evidence.

What about the Canaanites? From the Jericho and Rahab account, we learn that they knew what happened to Egypt, but still wanted to fight against the Israelites! Could they have 'given up', and joined the Israelites? Yes, because the account tells us the Gibeonites did, and were allowed to live, subject to the Israelites, as drawers of water. Israel even protected them from the other Canaanites! If foreigners wanted to become worshippers of Jehovah, Jehovah accepted them!

 

[sojourner]

Moral high-ground? Is that something that only an all powerful being can wield because it can force anyone and anything to do what it pleases?
Sounds more like an abuse of power.

To force someone to do something is, as you say, an abuse of power. Since God isn't abusive, God doesn't force us to do anything. God creates us with the capacity for possibilities, because we are created in the image of God, and God also embodies possibility.

 

[sojourner]

Do you think that maybe God should have created a human that cannot be tempted?

If we were limited with regard to choice and will, we wouldn't be human.

 

[sojourner]

So God gets a free pass?
Or is it to say that God is not to be held to his own standards?
So much for leading by example, eh?

Who holds God "accountable?" Who is higher than God? Who wields the authority? What, exactly, are "God's standards, and how do you know?" Let me ask you this: How can a sun be "held accountable" for going nova? How can an ocean be "held accountable" for producing rogue waves?

 

[sojourner]

He makes a good point. Pretend that she did. What makes god's decision to put the tree in the garden much better than a mother giving a gun to the child? Remember, satan/the snake didn't give the gun. He just tempted the child. But god was the one that created that temptation to sin. I can understand why god would be to blame as with the mother.

How is the knowledge of good and evil classified as "sin?" In what way is the presence of that knowledge a "temptation?"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How is the knowledge of good and evil classified as "sin?" In what way is the presence of that knowledge a "temptation?"

According to how I read it, temptation is free will to sin. Outside of that temptation, you have full worship and obedience to god. The consesus is "if you believe thr choice is Yours and not from god, its a sin"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we were limited with regard to choice and will, we wouldn't be human.

I disagree. I rather have a choice between which fruits to pick from the tree than choosing choosing between life in pain or death in mystery. I think its more ego from a christian view if people want to put all their faith in christ. That inherited sin makez people feel they cant be like Jesus. I honestly feel thats a wrong way to look at christian lifestyle. Thats me.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But I don't think The Bible is "hooey." It has a lot of good knowledge in it, sound reasoning when it comes to resolving life's difficulties or in imparting wisdom as to how you should treat your fellow man to keep yourself happy and free of guilt and suffering - it contains some of the most well-known analogies and "parables" of all time.

That's great! I'm really glad to hear it. I'm sorry for my dogmatic assumption.

But there is much of it outside of the parts that give that advice that attempt to pass off things as "truth" that I find to be incredulous accounts of fantasy and general ridiculousness. I feel as though it is be possible for one to wade through the fluff and self-aggrandizing that The Bible brings upon itself and find the nuggets of wisdom that truly lie within - but that is not how it is used, nor how it is sold. It ends up being such a drown-out hodgepodge for me that I finally resolved to simply not bother with it. You (and Mahatma Gandhi) can have all the problem in the world with my decision - but your displeasure, or disappointment won't ever change the fact that I have no problem with my decision.

Yes, for sure! What's been understood about it, that it says this, or says that, is definitely disheartening!
But there is a lot in it, dealing with many different subjects!!

Take death, for instance. Jesus said his friend Lazarus, who had died, was "sleeping" -- Jesus likened death to sleep.
The rest of the Bible (and we can go Scripture by Scripture dealing with this subject) actually agrees with this! Another Scripture, Ecclesiastes 9:5, says "the dead know not anything." Just think: these statements completely nullifies the teaching of Hellfire!
(Yes, the Bible does mention "torment", but it's written in ancient Koine Greek, and that Greek term applies to being jailed, like a prisoner. In other words, held in the chains of death, forever!)

There is so much difference between what the Bible really means, and what people are taught.