How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[Deeje]

Please excuse me if these points have already been expressed, I am short of time this morning and haven't read through the whole thread....

I was a devoted Christian for a very long time, 25 years or more - a Trinity believing Protestant taught that our creator God is omniscient (all-knowing) omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). This creator designed and created men and women fully and completely all by 'himself'.

I am assuming that you were a dedicated member of Christendom for a very long time.....so was I for about the same amount of time. I don't believe that this makes you a "Christian" however.

God is "all knowing" but it doesn't mean that he chooses to know everything. In giving his human creation free will, he leaves our choices up to us.

God is also "all powerful" to which the vast universe and creation itself is powerful testimony. But Nowhere does the Bible say that God is omnipresent.
Jesus gave him a location..."Our Father who art in heaven". Do we earth-bound humans really know where or what "heaven" is? I don't think so.

The Creator provided the raw materials for creation and designed what he had in mind to accomplish...but there was someone working alongside him as a construction engineer....his "only begotten son". (Gen 1:27) The son was used as the agency of creation as Paul indicated...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

When God was dictating the order of creation he simply said "Let there be...." and his agent carried out his command.

What I don't understand, is if this creator purposefully designed and unleashed upon the earth a creature capable of rape and murder, why isn't 'He' to blame for these atrocities? Why would you construct a being with the potential to do so much harm to his fellow humans? What was the motive?

The Creator did no such thing. If you don't understand what happened in Eden then nothing will make sense to you.

What did God actually create? He placed perfect human creatures in a garden of pleasure, which delighted all their senses and provided abundantly for all their needs. He even withheld a knowledge of evil so that nothing would mar their idyllic existence. Eternal happiness was theirs for the taking....all they needed to do was remain obedient to one simple command. This was not a difficult test, just a small one to ascertain whether these free willed creatures would respect their Creator and the property he had claimed as his own and placed off limits to them.

Have you ever thought about what would have happened if.......

1) The angel who became satan had never rebelled?

2) Eve had told the devil to "go away" like Jesus did?

3) Adam had rejected his wife's offer of the forbidden fruit and remained obedient?

Any of those scenarios would have resulted in a different outcome...God did not foreordain the actions of his free willed creatures....but after they had acted, he did foretell the future for their children.

In all creation there are equal opposites....sometimes the opposite is desirable and useful, but others are not. Evil only exists as an opposite of good, but God placed it behind a barrier with a penalty so severe, that only an idiot would disobey.

As free willed creatures, God had to make this knowledge achievable for them, but warned them about it and the consequences of unleashing it. Nothing good would result from this knowledge. But a rebel spirit hijacked the human race and fooled the woman into believing the opposite. God could have snuffed out the rebels then and there but he chose to do something far more beneficial in the long term. He allowed them to "fill the earth" with their offspring (as he had commanded) and for them all to experience what this knowledge would do to humans in this world. Only by experiencing the repercussions of Adam's disobedience first hand, would humans feel the full brunt of what evil meant to humankind. Once his kingdom is established, never again would humans want to disobey their God, understanding where it leads. Precedents were then set for the rest of eternity so that no rebel will ever again be able to challenge God's rightful sovereignty over his creation.

If my son murdered a human and I supplied the gun knowing ahead of time he'd shoot someone, I'm held accountable for my part in the homicide. How much more so should God be held accountable for DESIGNING a creature that he KNOWS ahead of time (he's omniscient, remember) will murder a fellow human?

God allowed humans to use their own free will, just as he does. Control is not free will. God doesn't want to control our will but to help us to use it to benefit others as well as ourselves. But humans had to learn wisdom as to its use. God did not foreordain any of this to take place, but allowed humans to test him and themselves out. He told them about the penalty and that is what they experienced. He was true to his word as he always is. He has never abandoned faithful ones and continues to support those who are suffering for their faith.

This short lifetime is really not so bad in the big scheme of things. Just as we would lock away a loaded gun from small children, there is nothing to prevent a criminal from stealing the key and giving that gun to them to play with. This is what the devil did. He gave mankind a loaded gun and within one generation, a murderer was seen. Death was tasted for the first time. It's sting has never left us.

In the end, all will go back to the way it was, as if none of this had ever happened. No bad memories will remain to haunt people who suffered terribly in this life, and humanity will be brought back to the state that Adam and his wife once enjoyed in Eden. But the precedents set in this time will mean no other "satan" can ever appear again to spoil God's purpose. Eternity can then be enjoyed as it was meant to be....in paradise conditions with no evil seen anywhere in anyone, either in heaven or on earth.

 

[Buttercup]

I am assuming that you were a dedicated member of Christendom for a very long time.....so was I for about the same amount of time. I don't believe that this makes you a "Christian" however.

You're the second person in this thread who doubts my claim as to being a Christian. I can't tell you how rude I find those statements and won't respond to that type of arrogance.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I take immediate issue with this quote.
Christianity is easy to fall into and believe, it's designed to be.
The ones that have a hard time accepting it are those who approach it logically and not emotionally.

To "love your enemies" is easy? To "consider others as superior to you"? -- Philippians 2:3-4

To be "hated" by the world, because you're not like them? --John 15; compare James 4:4.

Mainstream Christianity is easy, and is so unlike Christ! As Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You're the second person in this thread who doubts my claim as to being a Christian. I can't tell you how rude I find those statements and won't respond to that type of arrogance.

If I may interject: from reading Deeje's previous posts, I know Deeje didn't mean anything derogatory to you by it.

Deeje just resents Christendom, as do I.

 

[Deathbydefault]

To "love your enemies" is easy? To "consider others as superior to you"? -- Philippians 2:3-4

To be "hated" by the world, because you're not like them? --John 15; compare James 4:4.

Mainstream Christianity is easy, and is so unlike Christ! As Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians."

The whole faith is easy, it's literally just believing what you are told and memorizing what you are told.
You don't need evidence or at least some form of fact based proof, just do what you're told.
Believe in Christs' word and follow his teachings, that's all.

"Love your enemies". You can feel more than one emotion at once.
"Consider others superior to you". I have met maybe one Christian in my life who didn't have a superiority complex.
Not to mention all the mouthy ones on the internet and in debates.
John 15; compare James 4:4. is a command to love one another, something that I am mentally incapable of doing.
But people like me weren't really considered when men wrote the bible.

 

[Neo Deist]

Are you referring to the Flood?

No, I refer to the entirety of the OT, not just the fictitious flood story.

 

[Katzpur]

These two kinda go together.

I give a good example. I have had epilepsy (seizure disorder) all of my life. I know no other feeling other than having this disorder. I have nothing to compare it to (say a healthy lifestyle) because this is all I am accustomed to. This is my "world" I guess you can say.

However, even though this is my world and this is all I know, I do not take it for granted that I still need to survive. Actually, having the illness itself (rather than recovering from it and looking back) is like a person being comfortable with a terminal illness. They go through stages (like I gone through severe life/death seizures, brain surgery, etc etc) and then you come to the other side and look at people and say "wait, I thought this was, um, normal?" I thought all people have some sort of sickness.

They don't.

My home school teacher should be about in her mid 60s in 2001. She was a air flight attendant, a holistic diet specialist (that was my homework, to go to the health food store!), and she exercised every day. She tossed aside Harry Potter (our required reading) and focused on my health.

Yet, even without her giving me the comparison I still did not take for granted that I am alive, I have over came pain, and I am here.

Not everyone learns by pain to find pleasure. It is true, when I thought I was going blind, and regained my sight (one of both eye problems), I don't take for granted that I can see 20/30 again. However, I rather be completely blind than half blind or go through brain surgery again.

Anyway, sorry, my point:

Not everyone needs to learn good through comparison. If I lived in a perfect place, I would not complain to the Creator and say "hey! you should give me sin so I learn to commit bad deeds and learn to love you more"

No.

I love the Creator because that is how he created me. That is how I choose to worship him is because he gave me the ability to make the choices of worshiping him as I see best. It would please him more, in this analogy, to do what's in my heart rather than what I am obligated to do as a result of pain.

I can see how people can learn from bad to get to good. When you are in a bad situation that is your life, you learn to appreciate what you have even if you see no other "good" person in your life.

One more example: I used to practice American Sign Language and interacted with the Deaf community often. Then one time I was talking to someone and she says that somewhere in Utah there is a town where this one family are all Deaf. The daughter did not know anyone could hear and speak. She didn't feel "pain" or disadvantage because she and her family accommodated for what they couldn't do with what they could. They probably didn't see it as accommodation.

Then she moves east and finds out that not everyone speaks ASL. That's a shock to her ears. "You mean, I am disadvantage because I can't hear?" (Hence the Deaf Community's discrimination)

Sorry, I type what 45 words a minute at minimum; so, I type a lot before I realize I'm going over board.

You do get my point though, right?

Actually, I'm not sure I do get your point, even though I realize you've really put some thought into trying to communicate it to me. I don't believe every person in the world has to experience every one of the evils or ills in the world in order to learn and grow, but I do believe that a world where everything was good would be a world where personal growth, progress and development would be essentially non-existent. Since I believe it is God's will that we have the opportunity to ultimately (I'm talking about millions or perhaps billions of years) progress to the point where we can be like Him, I believe He is doing what is necessary for that to happen. LDS scriptures quote Jesus Christ as saying, "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." An eternity with unlimited potential is what I want to experience. I am not going to be content to be "saved" from eternal torment and then find myself sitting on a cloud forever more strumming a harp and straightening my halo.

 

[Thana]

Hi Thana,



Given the world as it is, death can be a welcome end to a life well lived. Though as a Buddhist I understand that we can discipline our minds to reduce our self-made delusions and cravings which lead to much of our suffering, I am no youngster anymore and my juvenile desire to live forever has certainly waned.

That said, my argument here is not against living wisely and practically within the world as it is, but rather is against the illogical notion that a being, who can only be accurately described by humans as malevolent or insane at worst and indifferent and apathetic at best, purposely created all the torments we suffer and die from in the world, and yet can be regarded as beyond rebuke. As I wrote earlier, if even a mere human can imagine far better ways to create a universe with much less suffering, much more wisdom and compassion, and where freedom is not hampered in the least, then what is this God's excuse exactly? Appeals to authority, to power (i.e. God is our maker), and to ignorance come up very short imo... they appear rather as strongly related leftover remnants from a tribal bronze age culture that sought to impart obedience in the minds of common servants and slaves to their lords, kings, and masters.

You're assuming we know everything we need to know. But we don't.
So for whatever reason that we are unable to see, the world is as it is. Meaning the evil you attribute to God may be something that cannot be avoided for a specific, benefical effect.

I don't know. I don't claim to know, All I do is have faith. And at the end of the day, that's either good enough for you or it isn't.

 

[InChrist]

Why couldn't God have done everything the same way except put a "sin barrier" up that wouldn't allow sin in?

Do you understand what sin is? God is Holy, meaning perfect. Any creature created by a perfect, holy Being as God is not God and therefore, less than perfect since according to the scriptures there is only one such Being as God the Creator. If God were to put up a "sin barrier" such as you suggest then He would not have created humans in the first place since the very act of creating beings who are creatures less than Himself must allow for them the opportunity to make less than perfect choices, in other words...sin.

 

[InChrist]

I wasn't specifically expecting any certain thing, he's supposed to be God so i just expected to know when it was him

Well, how do you know that it wasn't your perception or lack thereof that just missed realizing God was/is there?

 

[prometheus11]

Do you understand what sin is? God is Holy, meaning perfect. Any creature created by a perfect, holy Being as God is not God and therefore, less than perfect since according to the scriptures there is only one such Being as God the Creator. If God were to put up a "sin barrier" such as you suggest then He would not have created humans in the first place since the very act of creating beings who are creatures less than Himself must allow for them the opportunity to make less than perfect choices, in other words...sin.

Oh, my bad, I though God was powerful enough to choose a different alternative. I didn't know he was a robot who can only do what he must do in just one way.

Yeah, if God doesn't have a choice in what he can do because he lacks that power, I have no issue.

 

[Thana]

An extremely early and outdated version for sure.

I am a lover of knowledge dedicating myself to large amounts of study.
If I turned to religion for any of the questions I wanted answered then I wouldn't get a real answer.
Maybe some roundabout half-answer that requires faith, but not a real answer.

I love knowledge too. Wisdom, moreso.
But I understand our limits, as humans. We can never know everything. At some point you've got to acknowledge that it will only ever get you so far.

I know a lot of Atheists get annoyed when they have scripture quoted at them, But I think this verse is more poetic than anything else.

"All things are wearisome and all words are frail;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing."
- Ecclesiastes 1:8

 

[Katzpur]

Yes. What I'm asking in the OP is what do Christians think of God's design choice regarding our ability to commit murder. I'm seeing that most of the Christians, if not all of them in this thread, give God a free pass as far any culpability regarding the programming of his creatures to murder. I've yet to hear a Christian say "Dang, that is kind of a harsh way to learn, isn't it?" I just don't buy that that's the way it had to be. God had choices too. He invented free will.

Well, since you have just said that you're "about done here," I don't know whether to bother responding to this last post or not. I hate it when I tell somebody that I'm ready to bow out of a particular thread and they egg me on. So that's not my intention. If you really want to drop this particular conversation, it's fine with me. I think we've both pretty well said all we have to say and will just be repeating ourselves at this point anyway. I'll just respond to this thread, and probably call it quits myself, too. But, if it makes you feel any better, I'd be happy to say, in all honesty, that "Dang, free will is a kind of a harsh way to learn!"

You honestly think it's necessary to allow our murderous function to be played out? Why?

I'm a little bit confused here. A few posts back, I asked you if you would like God to intervene before an evil act is committed and you indicated that you didn't particularly want that. You just wanted us to be created without the potential to do evil in the first place. So, I guess I'd have to say that I think it's necessary that we be allowed free will, even when the gift is abused.

How is that particular act applicable toward our growth?

I don't know that this particular act (i.e. murder) is applicable towards anyone's growth, but when I have asked you to draw a line at what wrongs our free will should allow and where the line should be drawn, you haven't given me an answer. I mean, it seems like you're fine condemning the idea of free will, but I still don't know what alternative you would suggest.

That sounds like a great idea. This thread has already gone way off topic and I'm about done here.

Me, too, probably. I think we've both said pretty much all we have to say on the subject. I'll post the lesson I gave in the LDS DIR. If you'd like to read it, great, but please don't feel obligated. I was already thinking about posting it for someone else anyway. Keep in mind that it was a half-hour lesson. It will take probably three posts to accommodate its size. I ask some questions throughout the lesson and class discussion takes place at that point. You'll kind of just have to take that into account if it seems at all disjointed. The thread will be called, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet."

I don't hate God. If there IS a God, I don't think he's the Abrahamic God of the Bible. I still pray, believe it or not. Almost every day. I'm just not sure "who" I'm talking to.

Seriously? That's really surprising. I can't imagine what you get out of doing so, but I'm actually glad you do.

I understand what you're saying here, but the mother was trying to help her son to have a better future life. If she murdered her child instead, explain how that's good for anyone as far as lessons to be learned?

I was trying to compare the child's understanding of his mother's behavior with our understanding of God's. The child's mother understood more about what would ULTIMATELY be for his best good than he did. I guess you could say that I'm just kind of giving God the benefit of the doubt here.

I get that and it's totally ok. We aren't here to discuss things with only people we agree with. How boring.

Well, I can't think of anybody I'd rather discuss a controversial subject with than you!

 

[prometheus11]

I love knowledge too. Wisdom, moreso.
But I understand our limits, as humans. We can never know everything. At some point you've got to acknowledge that it will only ever get you so far.

I know a lot of Atheists get annoyed when they have scripture quoted at them, But I think this verse is more poetic than anything else.

"All things are wearisome and all words are frail;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing."
- Ecclesiastes 1:8

Good post.

That's what many people think about feelings of transcendence and the sublime.

God is beyond. For sure.


But I see no evidence of a personal one that seeks to be known and worshipped.

 

[prometheus11]

I love knowledge too. Wisdom, moreso.
But I understand our limits, as humans. We can never know everything. At some point you've got to acknowledge that it will only ever get you so far.

I know a lot of Atheists get annoyed when they have scripture quoted at them, But I think this verse is more poetic than anything else.

"All things are wearisome and all words are frail;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing."
- Ecclesiastes 1:8

Good post.

That's what many people think about feelings of transcendence and the sublime.

God is beyond. For sure.


But I see no evidence of a personal one that seeks to be known and worshipped.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I love knowledge too. Wisdom, moreso.
But I understand our limits, as humans. We can never know everything. At some point you've got to acknowledge that it will only ever get you so far.

I fully acknowledge that research, evidence, and facts can only take a person so far.
What I don't acknowledge is any sort of need to take anything on faith. Ever.

I know a lot of Atheists get annoyed when they have scripture quoted at them, But I think this verse is more poetic than anything else.

"All things are wearisome and all words are frail;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing."
- Ecclesiastes 1:8

I don't mind scripture being quoted (90% of the time it can be used against the person quoting).
The quote more or less reinforces my stance against faith.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

We've cross-posted, Guy. Lol.



But God could have created us with the wisdom to avoid experiencing such torment in the first place...

God is not analogous to a human parent because human parents are not omniscient and omnipotent creators of all. They didn't make the rules up, they do their best to help their children deal with the world as it is. God, defined as an omniscient and omnipotent creator of all, however, is not at all limited to this and could have opted for a far less painful means of "teaching His children."

No analogy is perfect, but in a certain context we can take an example where we absolutely are omniscient and omnipotent in respect to the wants of a child right?. We know where to get the toy they want, and we can pay for it. But we choose not to, we choose to- not inflict, but allow a certain suffering that we did not cause, the child brought it on themselves. And similarly we know that the best solution is derived from the same source, that this is the greater act of love than simply satisfying every whim.

Because the the child gains essential wisdom regarding wants, desires, temptation, fulfillment, responsibility- and we know these are all far greater gifts than the crappy toy, even if the child does not

 

[Deeje]

You're the second person in this thread who doubts my claim as to being a Christian. I can't tell you how rude I find those statements and won't respond to that type of arrogance.

It wasn't meant to be arrogant, since I too was what I considered to be a "Christian" for many years. Christendom, however is not Christianity, which is why I left it.
I assumed that you might feel the same way, sorry if I offended.....it was not intended.

Can you tell me in what way Christendom resembles first century Christianity? because I see no similarity at all.

Didn't Jesus warn us about the "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity being sown by the devil after the Christian congregation was established? From the time when the apostles passed off the scene the weeds just took over, as weeds always do.

Only at the time of the harvest would the difference between true Christians and false ones become obvious.....they would not resemble one another at all any more.

 

[InChrist]

Oh, my bad, I though God was powerful enough to choose a different alternative. I didn't know he was a robot who can only do what he must do in just one way.

Yeah, if God doesn't have a choice in what he can do because he lacks that power, I have no issue.

It is not about a lack of power, rather God can only act in accordance with His character and reality. He is the one Creator God, therefore He cannot create other beings who innately possess perfection as He alone has or ever will have. To have created beings who could sin would certainly be to create robots with no real ability to freely love, which would be contrary to His character, since God is love. You charge God being a robot is illogical since it should be obvious that a Being such as God ho is capable of creating the entire universe and all life certainly has the ultimate wisdom to know the best way to create anything, including humans.

 

[columbus]

Well, your said it yourself, she violated God's commandment against murder. Secondly, God alone as the Creator has the only right to take life. Third, since God said not to murder and she did she was not being selfless at all, but selfish thinking her wisdom to be above God's in relation to the lives of her children. By placing herself in a superior position to God on the matter she was easily influenced to commit such an atrocious crime against her children by satan who desires and does all he can to destroy life.

Pardon me if I am repeating something, my eyes started glazing over about 200 posts ago. But the Andrea Yates story is much more interesting than that. The poor woman was born mentally ill. Her childhood was a trial, but eventually the doctors and scientists found a treatment that worked. She had a normal life, met a nice man, and started a family. But as sometimes happens, something changed and the symptoms returned. She did not choose any of this, in the sense of rebelling against God or anything. She truly believed that she was doing what God wanted. She was saving the children from Hell.
By the most logical interpretation of Christian teaching she was right.
This is not just a weird story about a mentally ill Christian. We are all mentally ill to some degree. Most particularly anyone who would choose hell, or something that would result in hell. So unless Hell is God's punishment for having been created mentally ill, it is illogical. I don't believe God is illogical. So I believe that the people who believe and teach Hell are illogical and primitive humans, nothing to do with God.
It might make you feel good to believe "God'll get those people" when you feel powerless to do it yourself. But it is not logical.
Tom