InChrist
Free4ever
Never heard of Andrea Yates.You must be a fan of Andrea Yates, then.
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Never heard of Andrea Yates.You must be a fan of Andrea Yates, then.
I was absolutely a born again Christian. Also, it's not you who gets to discern who is and who isn't your definition of a Christian. That's quite presumptuous and disrespectful.It is one thing to be say you once believed as I do or claim you were once a Christian, but the fact is many claim to have been Christian who really never were. According to the scriptures a Christian is one who has been born again to new life in Christ. The old has passed away and the Christian is a new creation. So you may have gone to church, had a "Christian" family or adhered to certain beliefs for a time , but that does not mean you ever were a Christian because a new creation in Christ who has been born again with life from above cannot be ...unborn. So you may have the head knowledge of Christianity as a religion, but that is a far cry from knowing God personally by the Spirit.
Okay, I can't stop you from claiming you were a Christian, but I don't believe you were because anyone who knows the living God could never turn away from Him. As Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68I was absolutely a born again Christian. Also, it's not you who gets to discern who is and who isn't your definition of a Christian. That's quite presumptuous and disrespectful.
If you can deal with my long posts, I can deal with your short ones.I don't mind long posts in the slightest. I always appreciate that someone takes the time out of their day or cares enough about the topic to spend a half hour typing their thoughts out. So, never any worries there, I'll read every word. My responses, on the other hand, tend to be brief. I'll hope you'll put up with that characteristic of mine. I don't enjoy communicating via text.
Actually, I've heard it described as being similar to reincarnation by many people -- just none of them LDS. I honestly don't know all that much about reincarnation, so it may be more similar than I've always thought. I think the main thing to understand about Mormon theology in this regard is that we believe the human spirit is eternal. Yes, it was created by God, but the material from which He created it has always existed. So, the next point is that the spirit is the essence of life. It can exist within the confines of a physical body, but it does not need to. The thing is that the spirit itself never really changes. Its attributes are pretty much constant over time. We believe that each of us started our existence in spirit form, came into this world as mortal beings at birth, at which time the spirit that had previously been living in God's presence entered into the physical body giving it life. At death, the individual's brain functions cease and the physical part of us dies. The spirit, however does not die, but continues to exist as a fully cognizant entity at that point and resides in an intermediate realm -- neither Heaven nor Hell -- until the resurrection, when it re-enters a newly perfected and immortal body, never to leave it again. That new body, however, is still essentially the same in appearance as it was during mortality (in other words, I would be recognizable to people who knew me here). The body is different in that it is no longer subject to aging, disease, deformity or death. If I understand reincarnation correctly, someone can live one life as a worm, another as a frog, another as a chimpanzee (I threw that in there just for you) and another as a human. This would be impossible according to Mormon thought. I was "me," Katzpur, during my premortal existence (before I had a mortal body). I am "me," Katzpur, now, complete with my totally imperfect body and all. I will be "me," Katzpur, after my spirit leaves my body after my body stops working completely, and I will be "me," Katzpur when I have a new, immortal body where the very same spirit I possessed during my pre-mortal life will reside forever.I had no idea until reading those two paragraphs how much Mormon doctrine is similar to reincarnation. How fascinating! I'm kind of interested in reading more just for the sake of edification.
Believe it or not, some Mormons would answer "yes" to that question. I would not. We have no official doctrine telling us just how much we knew beforehand. I have heard people say that some chose to endure horrible lives just for the opportunity to live at all. Oddly enough, , I've never heard anyone say that who didn't have a pretty great life himself. I have an LDS friend who grew up in an abusive, dysfunctional family, married a narcissistic, abusive husband, has battled cancer and has, in short, had one ****ty life. If you ever want to see this lady go ballistic, you'll tell her that she chose (or even agreed to) the life she has. I tend to agree with her. Who would choose such a life? I suspect that we looked at things, during our pre-mortal lives, pretty much the same way we do now. When told about any potential terrible things that might happen to us, we always tend to think, "No, that won't happen to me. It will happen to someone else instead. I'll take the gamble that my life will be pretty much perfect." Tell a teenager who gets in a sports car while high and drives down a winding road at 80 mph that he's going to be dead by the end of the night, and he's sure you're full of it. We have no doctrine as to how much we actually knew about our upcoming lives before we were born. We could possibly have known some of what we would experience, but my gut feel is that we were pretty much in the dark about what to expect -- at least in terms of our own personal experiences.So, let me make sure I understand something before we go further. Are you saying that before this murdered child was born she was with the Father in heaven and chose this awful path for her brief life here?
No, I don't think that -- that we need to experience such extreme pain to learn a lesson, even though it sometimes works out that way. As you may or may not know, we believe that both God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are corporeal beings with "flesh and bones." Now, I don't mean they are "mortal"; I mean they have a physical form that resembles that of a human. Their bodies are, however, perfect, immutable and incorruptible. When I said in my prior post that we wanted the opportunity to become like God, what I failed to mention was that we wanted to be more than merely spirit beings. We wanted to have a perfect, immortal body like He does. In order for that to ever happen, we had to first have a mortal body, a body that would potentially be subject to disease and injury and even to being raped, murdered and chopped up. For a baby who dies hours after its birth, the requirement that he obtain a body has been met. He can then move on to the next phase of his existence and will ultimately have a perfect body that can't be harmed in any way.If so, why? Do you really think we need to experience such extreme pain to learn some sort of lesson? If so, what's the lesson in allowing yourself to be raped, murdered and chopped up?
Sounds good to me. Before I sign off, though, I'm going to repost a couple of paragraphs from my last post. In those, I asked you some questions. They weren't hypothetical. I'm really interested in knowing your answers to them. I'll put them in red font this time around:Let's come back to this later.
Exactly. It's obvious God has the capacity to create a utopia where there is no murder, no starvation, no natural catastrophes. That's what Heaven is, right? So, why do we have to go through all this crap first? Why is he so mean? What's his motive? Creating humans with the heinous capacities we have and then tossing in free will as a get out of jail free card seems like a weak plotted horror story.
I'm glad you've joined the conversation, Hockeycowboy. I will be looking forward to comparing beliefs with you. You've told Buttercup what you believe about the Fall of Adam. I haven't done so yet, but will tomorrow. I've gotta get to sleep, too!You raise some good questions! Actually, God did create a utopia, one where Adam and Eve, created perfect, could have lived forever! (Along with their offspring.) But Adam chose to disregard God's prohibitive command.
BTW, have you ever thought of the commands Adam and Eve were given? (I never did, until it was pointed out to me.)
They only had three: to procreate (Genesis 1:28), to cultivate the Garden (Genesis 2:15), and to not eat from one tree. So there was only one prohibitive command! The other two were fun to do, especially the one to procreate! So obedience wasn't difficult. (There were many other trees to eat from; God wasn't depriving them of anything.)
I will continue this later, but I've gotta get to sleep! Just read Genesis 3:1-6, and try to look for issues that were raised....one is about who was the liar, and another deals with who has the right to rule. When I come back, we can discuss these. Ok?
Take care!
Famous case: she drowned her four young children to make sure that they died while they could still be guaranteed to go to Heaven.Never heard of Andrea Yates.
I agree.I was a devoted Christian for a very long time, 25 years or more - a Trinity believing Protestant taught that our creator God is omniscient (all-knowing) omnipotent (all-powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). This creator designed and created men and women fully and completely all by 'himself'.
What I don't understand, is if this creator purposefully designed and unleashed upon the earth a creature capable of rape and murder, why isn't 'He' to blame for these atrocities? Why would you construct a being with the potential to do so much harm to his fellow humans? What was the motive?
If my son murdered a human and I supplied the gun knowing ahead of time he'd shoot someone, I'm held accountable for my part in the homicide. How much more so should God be held accountable for DESIGNING a creature that he KNOWS ahead of time (he's omniscient, remember) will murder a fellow human?
Oh yes, I remember the case, but didn't remember the name. That woman, I believe will be held accountable for murder which violates not only God's direct written command, but I believe the moral standard regarding taking another life engraved on each person's conscience.Famous case: she drowned her four young children to make sure that they died while they could still be guaranteed to go to Heaven.
Oh yes, I remember the case, but didn't remember the name. That woman, I believe will be held accountable for murder which violates not only God's direct written command, but I believe the moral standard regarding taking another life engraved on each person's conscience.
I don't claim that Christ put an end to the capital punishment and think murders should receive the death penalty.Some Christians claim that Christ put an end to capital punishment for murderers. Actually the Noahic Covenant provides the commandment to execute murderers.
While it would be wrong to carry out this punishment under the Mosaic law, it is fully required under Noahic law.
That woman should receive the death penalty.
Okay, I can't stop you from claiming you were a Christian, but I don't believe you were because anyone who knows the living God could never turn away from Him. As Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68
But why would what she did be immoral?Oh yes, I remember the case, but didn't remember the name. That woman, I believe will be held accountable for murder which violates not only God's direct written command, but I believe the moral standard regarding taking another life engraved on each person's conscience.
These are easy things to say, until you think about them logically. If someone's nature is holy why would they ever act contrary to that nature? Why would they make a choice to do something that fulfils no need or desire within them? That makes zero sense. The only way they would act contrary to their nature would be if there was a flaw in them, a pathology.Adam was created holy with the ability to make a choice contrary to his nature.
You raise some good questions! Actually, God did create a utopia, one where Adam and Eve, created perfect, could have lived forever! (Along with their offspring.) But Adam chose to disregard God's prohibitive command.
BTW, have you ever thought of the commands Adam and Eve were given? (I never did, until it was pointed out to me.)
They only had three: to procreate (Genesis 1:28), to cultivate the Garden (Genesis 2:15), and to not eat from one tree. So there was only one prohibitive command! The other two were fun to do, especially the one to procreate! So obedience wasn't difficult. (There were many other trees to eat from; God wasn't depriving them of anything.)
I will continue this later, but I've gotta get to sleep! Just read Genesis 3:1-6, and try to look for issues that were raised....one is about who was the liar, and another deals with who has the right to rule. When I come back, we can discuss these. Ok?
Take care!
It is one thing to be say you once believed as I do or claim you were once a Christian, but the fact is many claim to have been Christian who really never were. According to the scriptures a Christian is one who has been born again to new life in Christ. The old has passed away and the Christian is a new creation. So you may have gone to church, had a "Christian" family or adhered to certain beliefs for a time , but that does not mean you ever were a Christian because a new creation in Christ who has been born again with life from above cannot be ...unborn. So you may have the head knowledge of Christianity as a religion, but that is a far cry from knowing God personally by the Spirit.
Okay, I can't stop you from claiming you were a Christian, but I don't believe you were because anyone who knows the living God could never turn away from Him. As Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68
That sounds like orthodox Christianity, all right.I agree.
I had been in orthodox Christianity for decades, with many of those years acting as a teacher within it as well. I left after realizing, in my perspective, that orthodox Christian theology actually presents a god who is limited, selfish, and immoral.
- Limited, because he could not exist on his own without creating a separate creation to fulfill his unfulfilled needs.
- Selfish, because he created creation and all of its inherent suffering, even while possessing foreknowledge of all the evils and deficiencies in his creation.
- Immoral, because, knowing the inherent evil and suffering his creation would produce, continued to create creation as prime mover, yet blames and punishes the creature for what he originated and foreknew.
But Satan isn't in that story. The NT authors who claimed this either have non-canon stories referenced or are lying.You should understand my answer if you are born again.
Satan lied to Eve when he said "you shall be like God knowing good and evil."
The only thing A&E did was learn how to make stuff up.Adam did not become like God, he did not know good but he did know evil and this is why he covered himself and hid himself.
God told me humans wrote it. It's verifiable because all the books are attributed to human authors. Is God lying to me?The central determining question is and always will be, is the bible at he word of God? Or is it just another book written by men?
Selah
We taught our dogs to have respect (with arguable results, LOL), be kind to smaller dogs (especially puppies), take turns, etc. We raised them with (simplified) morals we would have taught kids had we had any. It's worked out rather well so far. I expect us to have similar morals as an entire family. It's amazing just how much we have in common despite being different species.But why would the standards that He gave us then apply to Him?
Do the rules and standards we give our pets apply to us?
Well, He DID make a heaven that can supposedly host a rebellion by a greedy archangel or whatever. If Paradise can't keep it's stuff together, why assume Earth can?Exactly. It's obvious God has the capacity to create a utopia where there is no murder, no starvation, no natural catastrophes. That's what Heaven is, right? So, why do we have to go through all this crap first? Why is he so mean? What's his motive? Creating humans with the heinous capacities we have and then tossing in free will as a get out of jail free card seems like a weak plotted horror story.
Is there evidence in Genesis the author of Revelations is correct?Genesis and Revelations are... a chore. I'd rather not have to go digging through them. But Revelations 12:9 and 20 should be able to start you off.
Imagine if Abraham were a woman and successful in child-icide.Never heard of Andrea Yates.
But that's between her and God. God could've gone all Book of Job on her and it ticked her off.Okay, I can't stop you from claiming you were a Christian, but I don't believe you were because anyone who knows the living God could never turn away from Him. As Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68
Technically, Eve is created AFTER the rule was given not to eat from the tree.BTW, have you ever thought of the commands Adam and Eve were given? (I never did, until it was pointed out to me.)
They only had three: to procreate (Genesis 1:28), to cultivate the Garden (Genesis 2:15), and to not eat from one tree. So there was only one prohibitive command! The other two were fun to do, especially the one to procreate! So obedience wasn't difficult. (There were many other trees to eat from; God wasn't depriving them of anything.)
I will continue this later, but I've gotta get to sleep! Just read Genesis 3:1-6, and try to look for issues that were raised....one is about who was the liar, and another deals with who has the right to rule. When I come back, we can discuss these. Ok?
Take care!
So God is competent to provide salvation for humans but is incompetent to sign off on angels?Adam was created holy with the ability to make a choice contrary to his nature.
The Angels too were created as holy sinless beings with the ability to choose contrary to their nature. However the Angels that sinned were confirmed in unholiness while the good Angels were confirmed in holiness and forever can not sin.
Man was given salvation post sinning unlike the fallen angels.
Like it or not, this is what scripture says.
Before eating of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, how would Adam know it was evil to disobey God and good to obey God?