How Do Christians Reconcile The Following Question Regarding Their Faith?

[Unveiled Artist]

If we were limited with regard to choice and will, we wouldn't be human.

The point Im making is we dont need free will to sin to be human.

Think about it. Do you want your child to choose to blow up millions of people when you can teach him options of love for you instead?

 

[buddhist]

Well, the garden of eden was already "heaven" but puting that tree in there that has the same wisdom as god was like puting a needle in food and telling a child not to eat it. Take the needle out. The child can decide to eat it but if he does not it wont affect him eternally.

True, in essence that would have been heavenly, if not heaven.

In my former life as a Christian, I would have stated that the tree was necessary to provide a choice to give free will to Adam and Eve. This did not made sense to me, considering that "free will" is apparently present in the Christian heaven, without such a tree or the ability to make choices which goes against the god's will.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I can choose to fly to Saturn. And I shall do do when the technology presents itself such that I can make good on that choice.

Haha... so, let me get this straight - when the technology is available for man to fly to Saturn you're going to make the choice to go take a dump? Seems kind of strange, but feel free.

 

[prometheus11]

No, Because I'm not here to convince people. I just like to debate.

That's...um..the point of debating. That's like saying I don't care about clean teeth, I just enjoy brushing them twenty times a day.

And you're using the passage out of context, which makes it sound as if the NT or the OT actually considered humans Gods when it was really just referring to humans with authority who were like Gods among men and the whole point was to remind them not to abuse their power.

Which is a lot different than humans being clay, isn't it? (Look at what I was responding to and you'll get it).

 

[Forgemaster]

How were you specifically expecting God to show you that He was there?

I wasn't specifically expecting any certain thing, he's supposed to be God so i just expected to know when it was him

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True, in essence that would have been heavenly, if not heaven.

In my former life as a Christian, I would have stated that the tree was necessary to provide a choice to give free will to Adam and Eve. This did not made sense to me, considering that "free will" is apparently present in the Christian heaven, without such a tree or the ability to make choices which goes against the god's will.

Here's another weird thing. That tree wasnt just any ol tree. That tree had god's full wisdom. Why put your wisdom (your secret) in the garden and be jeleous ans angry when someone figures it out. It sounds more human.

 

[Forgemaster]

God is described as perfect and omnipotent but he lacks both those traits as he is hypocritical and he seems to lack the ability to do a great many things, such as plan ahead!

 

[prometheus11]

Here's another weird thing. That tree wasnt just any ol tree. That tree had god's full wisdom. Why put your wisdom (your secret) in the garden and be jeleous ans angry when someone figures it out. It sounds more human.

Yesterday we went round and round on this topic. We got to the point that the believer was literally claiming the opposite of what the verses say.

Genesis three is a good read, IMO for noticing some massive plot holes.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Thana,

All that story did for me is make me realize that Buddhism really is no different to any other religion. The serial killer saw his inner peace? Exactly how does one see anothers inner peace? Is that story really trying to persuade people that ones demeanor can stop serial killers?

I don't know much about Buddhism, to be honest, but from all the talk I've heard it's supposed to be some enlightening, intelligent philosophical system but if thats what Buddhism considers wisdom then I think I've grossly overestimated it.

But I digress.

That's what you got out of the story? Lol. I'd be happy to explore Buddhist queries in another thread (so as not to derail this one). Suffice it to say, the point of that story is to teach that everyone has the potential to be enlightened within themselves: to be wise, compassionate, and at peace. Even a serial killer.

In this thread we've been talking about whether or not we should hold God to the standards that He holds us at. I, personally, think we should not but many think we should. But really, can murder be applied to God? Can one really murder something that it creates?

Of course. You do consider it murder when a human parent kills their own child... don't you?

The bible has an analogy about the potter and the clay.

Romans 9-21
"Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use and another for common use"

I think it's an interesting question. What do you think, Can the potter murder the clay?

If God regards humanity as nothing more than mere clay, a material to be used as one pleases, then such a God is a sociopath. Where is the empathy, the love, the compassion in this analogy which I thought Jesus spoke of?

Are you of the opinion that human parents can do whatever they please to their children? To treat them as if they were potters molding clay objects?

 

[sojourner]

That is odd. If my mother put a hundred toys in front of me, I have free to choose between race cars and barbie dolls. I have the free will to love her still. I can change my mind, but why?

If my mother put a gun with the toys and someone tempted me to use that gun and I did, I would suffer consequences. Instead of taking the gun and the tempter from the "playpin" she decides to throw me out.

Now, I have temptation to do anything.

Her choice to throw me out was not productive in teaching me right and wrong. Saying something is wrong is not the same as teaching him "without" punishment.

If the mother did keep toys in the playpin without a gun, would not rob me free will? No. I see nothing negative.

Who says anything about "throwing out?"

 

[sojourner]

I was just responding to your claims they seemed strange.

All the money in the world isn't going to realize some desires (flapping arms to fly to Saturn).

Who said anything about realizing our choices? We can make any choice we want to. Whether we can make good on that choice is another matter.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Mote,

I like this statement. Made me come to an analogy in human-to-human terms - that this is no different than the boss at your workplace being held accountable for the actions of his subordinates. Even if God has no superior, that doesn't matter. The President of a company (who has no superior within the company) IS ALSO ACCOUNTABLE for the continued state of the company. I don't know that anyone would argue otherwise. This is a simple tenet of conducting business. Do we not hold our residing president/leader accountable? Do the citizens of a country under a dictatorship not ultimately hold the dictator responsible for the state of some aspects of the country's welfare? If not, then why have there ever been any uprisings against such powers? Is it wrong to ever "rise up" and question the authority? I would say that no... no it is definitely not wrong, and in some cases is all too warranted.

Indeed, and all the more reason to hold this God accountable, who is presumed omniscient and omnipotent unlike human bosses.

 

[sojourner]

The point Im making is we dont need free will to sin to be human.

Think about it. Do you want your child to choose to blow up millions of people when you can teach him options of love for you instead?

Of course we do, because sin is nothing more than missing the mark. If we always hit the target, there's no real choice and, hence, no imago dei.

 

[sojourner]

Haha... so, let me get this straight - when the technology is available for man to fly to Saturn you're going to make the choice to go take a dump? Seems kind of strange, but feel free.

Ha! Now that's funny! Yes, when the opportunity presents itself, I shall, indeed, do that very thing.

Some say they can hold it, but take no flack;
When nature calls, you don't talk back!

 

[prometheus11]

Who said anything about realizing our choices? We can make any choice we want to. Whether we can make good on that choice is another matter.

But just listen to yourself. Anybody can "choose" anything, but it may not happen.

What is the difference between me choosing to have all the worlds diamonds and me not making that choice? Is free will really so invisible as that?

 

[Kartari]

Hi Hockey,

In discussions of God's omniscience, why does It always have to include 'knowledge of the future'? Isn't knowing everything in the past and present, enough? Must He also have a "time machine"?

There are many accounts and passages in the Bible that clearly indicate Jehovah God doesn't have that ability.

For example: with Jonah and the Ninevites; with the Earth's population, before the Flood; and several times with His people, Israel.

The accounts say He "felt regret"; that He was "hurt ar His heart"; regarding His people, "they pained the Holy One of Israel."

This informs us that God didn't know what was coming. Unless He's a sadist. Or a masochist. No, He is a God of love.

Well, by definition, omniscient means possessing "unlimited" knowledge. That includes knowledge of the future. If your version of God does not possess knowledge of the future, then your God is not omniscient.

That said, even if we qualify God as possessing vastly superior knowledge and intelligence to humans, then we have a being capable of predicting with great accuracy how each and every human in the world will think and act. God is still largely culpable in this case. It would be comparable to a being with perhaps dozens or even hundreds of times more deductive reasoning than Sherlock Holmes... what could possibly get past such a God's notice?

God would have to be downgraded remarkably from the unimaginably high pedestal God is traditionally placed upon in order to truly be surprised by the evil in the world. For to not be surprised implies God had foreknowing, or at least a very strong suspicion if not fully omniscient, of the choices each and every sentient being throughout time has made and will make.

Regarding the Bible, I agree you can find evidence that God is not omniscient. I also think you can find evidence for the opposite. In my view, the Bible is very contradictory and nebulous, such that one can find evidence to support just about any position one desires with scriptural quotations. You can be a mass murderer and find scriptural support, and you can be a total pacifist and find scriptural support. I think the Bible ultimately serves more utility when viewed as a Rorschach test rather than a source of moral guidance: it tells us far more about the individual reader's moral and psychological makeup than it does about God's.

 

[Thana]

Hi Thana,
Of course. You do consider it murder when a human parent kills their own child... don't you?



If God regards humanity as nothing more than mere clay, a material to be used as one pleases, then such a God is a sociopath. Where is the empathy, the love, the compassion in this analogy which I thought Jesus spoke of?

Are you of the opinion that human parents can do whatever they please to their children? To treat them as if they were potters molding clay objects?

I've had to explain that in regards to God, the parent/child analogy can only go so far.
And we don't create children. We are not their makers, parents yes but not their makers. We have no control over anything but their conception (And if you believe in predetermination then not even that) , everything else is a process that we have no hand in.

And if God regarded us as mere clay, Then Christianity wouldn't be true. And I'm a Christian so, obviously I don't think that. All I was doing was using an analogy to make a point.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, the garden of eden was already "heaven" but puting that tree in there that has the same wisdom as god was like puting a needle in food and telling a child not to eat it. Take the needle out. The child can decide to eat it but if he does not it wont affect him eternally.

I'm curious as to why you think He put it there in the first place. Or maybe He could have just put the tree there and told them not to eat its fruit. They'd have probably obeyed. The thing is, He also allowed the most cunning of individuals ever to have tempted them with godhood by eating the fruit. To me, the tree itself is not all that problematic. But He must have had a reason for allowing Satan to tempt them. What do you think it was?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yesterday we went round and round on this topic. We got to the point that the believer was literally claiming the opposite of what the verses say.

Genesis three is a good read, IMO for noticing some massive plot holes.

Hm. I would have to read it. I stopped reading scripture over couple years ago. I don't think there would be an end to this topic. The way I interpreted it and was taught (which kind of conflicted), I disagree with. I haven't heard a view that I do agree with, to tell you honestly. Maybe because it isn't my faith. Who knows?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who says anything about "throwing out?"

Put out the garden=thrown out the play pin. You get the context?