How do I know anything really exists?

[Aquitaine]

The one thing I really wanna know is: when you die, and you therefore stop perceiving reality - will you "recognize" that're you're no longer perceiving reality, and thus that you're dead?

 

[dust1n]

The one thing I really wanna know is: when you die, and you therefore stop perceiving reality - will you "recognize" that're you're no longer perceiving reality, and thus that you're dead?

Ooo.. that's a good point, because we could only perceive death by actually being dead and what ever being dead means is what creates that perception. You can only perceive death by not perceiving.

 

[dust1n]

What does it mean for a thing to really exist? If you know what "really" is, and what "exist" is, then that's how you know things really exist.

Good question.

For a thing to really exist, it has to be perceivable through the senses, but also persists independently in the absence of perception.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ooo.. that's a good point, because we could only perceive death by actually being dead and what ever being dead means is what creates that perception. You can only perceive death by not perceiving.

So when I blackout after drinking two fifths of bourbon, I'm actually dead! No wonder I feel like such crap the next day.

 

[Aquitaine]

Ooo.. that's a good point, because we could only perceive death by actually being dead and what ever being dead means is what creates that perception. You can only perceive death by not perceiving.

Yeah, exactly - it's weird when you think about it, heh?

So from what I've gathered, "death" is the erm.... "scenario" of no-longer perceiving reality, because our biological components used to perceive are now gone - but we need those components (i.e brain and senses etc) to actually become aware that we're no longer perceiving.

So does that mean, that really, we'll never ever experience death mentally? Of course I don't mean live forever etc because we obviously cease to function, but as far as we're aware, would we ever "die"?

 

[Aquitaine]

So when I blackout after drinking two fifths of bourbon, I'm actually dead! No wonder I feel like such crap the next day.

LOL

No but think of it like this, lets' say you black out but....... never wake up the next day. You would be dead, so to speak.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

LOL

No but think of it like this, lets' say you black out but....... never wake up the next day. You would be dead, so to speak.

At least I wouldn't have to suffer through another excruciating hangover. See, there's a silver lining to everything!

 

[dust1n]

So when I blackout after drinking two fifths of bourbon, I'm actually dead! No wonder I feel like such crap the next day.

Now I'm left to wonder... does perception continue without consciousness?

 

[Aquitaine]

Now I'm left to wonder... does perception continue without consciousness?

Our own perception probably doesn't, as for our subconscious, I dunno what/if it perceieves or if it even does. From wat I've gathered, consciousness seems to be the state of being in the right conditions for your to be able to continually perceive reality - so when you black out, it stops. So you could perhaps make a comparison to being blacked out and being dead, maybe.

Hey dust1n, what was going through your mind the last time you blacked out? ^_^

 

[MSizer]

I think therefore I perceive...

what descartes really should have said


...

No, that's not correct. Descartes (as much as I absolutely despise the man - he's an absolute idiot IMO) was logically correct in concluding "I think therefore I am" because his "method of doubt" eliminated the possibility of knowing all things to be true except that he existed.

The method of doubt includes 3 filters:

1 - Our senses can decieve us. Therefore, we can't be sure that anything we see, smell, taste, touch or hear is accurate.

2. We might be dreaming. We know that dreams cause us to believe, at least momentarily, that a false construct of the world exists, so the existence of dreams leads us to conclude that nothing we perceive may actually reflect the real world.

3. An evil demon may control our thoughts to falsify reality. This is where he hit the nail on the head by concluding that "even if I'm currently being deceived about everything I percive by some being who has power over my thoughts, I still have to exist in order to be deceived."

Therefore, he can indeed conclude that he exists, even if his perception of his own existence is flawed.

 

[Aquitaine]

No, that's not correct. Descartes (as much as I absolutely despise the man - he's an absolute idiot IMO) was logically correct in concluding "I think therefore I am" because his "method of doubt" eliminated the possibility of knowing all things to be true except that he existed.

The method of doubt includes 3 filters:

1 - Our senses can decieve us. Therefore, we can't be sure that anything we see, smell, taste, touch or hear is accurate.

2. We might be dreaming. We know that dreams cause us to believe, at least momentarily, that a false construct of the world exists, so the existence of dreams leads us to conclude that nothing we perceive may actually reflect the real world.

3. An evil demon may control our thoughts to falsify reality. This is where he hit the nail on the head by concluding that "even if I'm currently being deceived about everything I percive by some being who has power over my thoughts, I still have to exist in order to be deceived."

Therefore, he can indeed conclude that he exists, even if his perception of his own existence is flawed.

What is it you despise about the man? I'm not challenging you or nout, just curious.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

All I know is if you REALLY want to test this and you are a guy. Grab your ball sack, and squeeze super hard! So hard that they might break. One thing will come of this experiment, you'll wish you did not exist

 

[MSizer]

Now I'm left to wonder... does perception continue without consciousness?

No, it doesn't. We know that from psychiatry. A sensation is the physiological process that results in what we consider a perception, which we can describe (the actual details of our perceptions are called qualia). Our ability to put context around perceptions, such as for example, our ability to remember specific events triggered by a smell is called cognition. Cognition isn't possible without conciousness. So no, perception, a building block of cognition, doesn't exist without conciousness. It is highly likely that people who are unconcious would still have reflexive reactions if they still perceived, but they don't.

 

[ChristineES]

You don't, you just act as if you do. I ask this question all the time.

 

[MSizer]

What is it you despise about the man? I'm not challenging you or nout, just curious.

In order to reconcile christian doctrine with (at the time) modern medicine, he concluded that animals must not feel pain, since they do not have souls. So, he nailed live cats and dogs by their forepaws to boards and performed live vivisections. He insisted that the screams were not a result of suffering because they are merely biological machines reacting mechnically, like a spring in a clock. He peeled the skin off of live cats to show the beating of the heart and circulation of blood through their veins.

 

[Mr Cheese]

No, that's not correct. Descartes (as much as I absolutely despise the man - he's an absolute idiot IMO) was logically correct in concluding "I think therefore I am" because his "method of doubt" eliminated the possibility of knowing all things to be true except that he existed.

The method of doubt includes 3 filters:

1 - Our senses can decieve us. Therefore, we can't be sure that anything we see, smell, taste, touch or hear is accurate.

2. We might be dreaming. We know that dreams cause us to believe, at least momentarily, that a false construct of the world exists, so the existence of dreams leads us to conclude that nothing we perceive may actually reflect the real world.

3. An evil demon may control our thoughts to falsify reality. This is where he hit the nail on the head by concluding that "even if I'm currently being deceived about everything I percive by some being who has power over my thoughts, I still have to exist in order to be deceived."

Therefore, he can indeed conclude that he exists, even if his perception of his own existence is flawed.

however all things are one thing, as such there is no "I exist"
as we can see at the sub atomic level and in mysticism
as such we are "perceiving" that we exist....

thus descartes is wrong

 

[Just_me_Mike]

In order to reconcile christian doctrine with (at the time) modern medicine, he concluded that animals must not feel pain, since they do not have souls. So, he nailed live cats and dogs by their forepaws to boards and performed live vivisections. He insisted that the screams were not a result of suffering because they are merely biological machines reacting mechnically, like a spring in a clock. He peeled the skin off of live cats to show the beating of the heart and circulation of blood through their veins.

Sounds like a blockbuster to me! Get Spielberg on the phone!

 

[Aquitaine]

In order to reconcile christian doctrine with (at the time) modern medicine, he concluded that animals must not feel pain, since they do not have souls. So, he nailed live cats and dogs by their forepaws to boards and performed live vivisections. He insisted that the screams were not a result of suffering because they are merely biological machines reacting mechnically, like a spring in a clock. He peeled the skin off of live cats to show the beating of the heart and circulation of blood through their veins.

W-T-F! Barbarian.

 

[.lava]

maybe just like Shamans claim, there is spell on Earth and each person by learning concepts, names..etc are adding to that spell so that world remains the same as if we all see the same thing. there's no proof if we both see the same shade of green while staring at the same plant. but we both call it green and we assume we are seeing the same thing. i don't know IMO reality is like a dream. in a dream, as long as you are there, you treat everything as real because to your dream body they are real and you can't deny it. they need your perception to be existed. you wake up and they don't exist anymore. i believe the very same thing work with reality we experience while awake

.

 

[dust1n]

Our own perception probably doesn't, as for our subconscious, I dunno what/if it perceieves or if it even does. From wat I've gathered, consciousness seems to be the state of being in the right conditions for your to be able to continually perceive reality - so when you black out, it stops. So you could perhaps make a comparison to being blacked out and being dead, maybe.

Hey dust1n, what was going through your mind the last time you blacked out? ^_^

Now I wonder... do animals perceive reality?