How do we reconcile medical research with excessive population growth?

[Kilgore Trout]

Our leftish little town once installed electric solar panels on the farmer's market.
They did this expecting a 1% return on investment, which equalls (roughly) a 100 year pay back.
The expected life was 30 years.
They saw no problem with this decision.

More lies from the oil industry. Stop being a shill for big oil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Shilling pays well.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Shilling pays well.

Will shill for shillings.

 

[Iti oj]

You left out an actual answer to the question. Please answer it.

Because the issue is money, which is a resource, albeit a fake one and not one of technical feasibility.

But yes I acknowledge we have much growth to make in that regard as well.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because the issue is money, which is a resource, albeit a fake one and not one of technical feasibility.

Regardless of money, it's currently not technically feasible to fulfill the energy requirements it takes to grow, store, transport, and distribute the amount of food required to feed over 7 billion people around the planet.

Then again, if we're simply ignoring the realities of economics and wishing money away, we might as well just wish food into existence for everyone while we're at it.

 

[Iti oj]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I support the status quo or that their aren't alternative methods to the current system. You also seem to think that we aren't producing enough food and that's why people starve. Or saying money is the issue is some how not agreeing that it's a resource management issues.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I support the status quo or that their aren't alternative methods to the current system. You also seem to think that we aren't producing enough food and that's why people starve. Or saying money is the issue is some how not agreeing that it's a resource management issues.

You seem to think that we would be able to produce, store, transport, and distribute enough food to feed 7 billion people around the planet without the use of petroleum at this point in time. You are mistaken.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Regardless of money, it's currently not technically feasible to fulfill the energy requirements it takes to grow, store, transport, and distribute the amount of food required to feed over 7 billion people around the planet.

Technically feasible or sustainable?

I'd say the fact that we're generally doing this now (and when we fail, it's for reasons other than lack of energy) suggests that it is technically feasible.

Sustainable... that's a different matter.

 

[Iti oj]

Technically feasible or sustainable?

I'd say the fact that we're generally doing this now (and when we fail, it's for reasons other than lack of energy) suggests that it is technically feasible.

Sustainable... that's a different matter.

Sustainable... A very important concept. One that I would not use to describe any part of the current system. That needs to change. Great point Jeff.

 

[Iti oj]

You seem to think that we would be able to produce, store, transport, and distribute enough food to feed 7 billion people around the planet without the use of petroleum at this point in time. You are mistaken.

No I don't think that at all. I clearly stated we need a Permaculture revolution and more locally based food product, as well as a dynamic shift in how we produce and consume energy and replace infrastructure with.green and sustainable alternatives. I'm not trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Im talking about radical changes, ones we're clearly not ready to make. Now stop with the straw man arguments.


Of course I'm a visionary and dreamer. Doesn't negate my points

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Technically feasible or sustainable?

I'd say the fact that we're generally doing this now (and when we fail, it's for reasons other than lack of energy) suggests that it is technically feasible.

Sustainable... that's a different matter.

Sorry, meant to say that it's not technically feasible without using petroleum at this point. It was implied in the flow of the conversation.

 

[Iti oj]

Sorry, meant to say that it's not technically feasible without using petroleum at this point. It was implied in the flow of the conversation.

Because biodiesel and electric engines do not exist. And again need a change in the food paradigm. I don't need lettuce from California I need it from my back yard/roof top/ community garden etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, meant to say that it's not technically feasible without using petroleum at this point. It was implied in the flow of the conversation.

Okay.

In that case, I don't think it's as important to ask whether it's technically feasible to stop using oil right now; the relevant question is whether we can do it before the oil runs out (or before the oil that's left is cost-prohibitive to get).

I see potential for us to make transportation much less oil-based, partly through technological change and partly through social change: it takes no special technology to buy Ontario garlic or grapes instead of Chinese garlic or Chilean grapes.

The big obstacle I see is fertilizer: it's still the big user of fossil fuels in agriculture, although it often uses fuel sources that aren't used as transportation fuel (e.g. potash). We can't turn wind power into fertilizer at this point... though this is where I hope that next Norman Borlaug will help us figure something out.

 

[Iti oj]

Okay.

In that case, I don't think it's as important to ask whether it's technically feasible to stop using oil right now; the relevant question is whether we can do it before the oil runs out (or before the oil that's left is cost-prohibitive to get).

I see potential for us to make transportation much less oil-based, partly through technological change and partly through social change: it takes no special technology to buy Ontario garlic or grapes instead of Chinese garlic or Chilean grapes.

The big obstacle I see is fertilizer: it's still the big user of fossil fuels in agriculture, although it often uses fuel sources that aren't used as transportation fuel (e.g. potash). We can't turn wind power into fertilizer at this point... though this is where I hope that next Norman Borlaug will help us figure something out.

Which brings us to the need for a permaculture revolution. Worm castings, compost, manure , green manure, cover crops and rock dust etc

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because biodiesel and electric engines do not exist.

Again, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce the biodiesel, as well as produce all the electricity you want to use to run engines. I suppose we can massively increase the number of coal burning power plants to create this electricity. However, I'm unsure whether that's an improvement over burning oil.

And again need a change in the food paradigm. I don't need lettuce from California I need it from my back yard/roof top/ community garden etc.

Sounds great. I'm sure this will work out well for the billions of people who live in regions that do not have enough arable land to support the population.

 

[Iti oj]

Again, it takes massive amounts of energy to produce the biodiesel, as well as produce all the electricity you want to use to run engines. I suppose we can massively increase the number of coal burning power plants to create this electricity. However, I'm unsure whether that's an improvement over burning oil.



Sounds great. I'm sure this will work out well for the billions of people who live in regions that do not have enough arable land to support the population.

Becuase theirs no green energy sources. Again permaculture!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Okay.

In that case, I don't think it's as important to ask whether it's technically feasible to stop using oil right now; the relevant question is whether we can do it before the oil runs out (or before the oil that's left is cost-prohibitive to get).

I see potential for us to make transportation much less oil-based, partly through technological change and partly through social change: it takes no special technology to buy Ontario garlic or grapes instead of Chinese garlic or Chilean grapes.

The big obstacle I see is fertilizer: it's still the big user of fossil fuels in agriculture, although it often uses fuel sources that aren't used as transportation fuel (e.g. potash). We can't turn wind power into fertilizer at this point... though this is where I hope that next Norman Borlaug will help us figure something out.

All highly relevant points. Perhaps I was falsely assuming that people knew that our food production is reliant on fertilizer, which requires petroleum.

 

[Iti oj]

From Arid, Salty Desert to Permaculture Garden: Greening the Desert Revisited (Video) : TreeHugger

As well as green house and compost soil. And I already addressed the water issue.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Becuase theirs no green energy sources. Again permaculture!

You throw out a lot of buzz words and phrases without actually contributing any ideas of substance. This makes meaningful communication rather difficult.

 

[Iti oj]

All highly relevant points. Perhaps I was falsely assuming that people knew that our food production is reliant on fertilizer, which requires petroleum.

Because you can't grow food organically.