Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
How can you discuss if you don't like clarifying your comments?
Everyone is different so you can't compare everyone's intelligence in one pot. Doesn't make sense.
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How do you be a Christian when the Bible is so faulty?
- Thread starter TruePathFinder
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How can you discuss if you don't like clarifying your comments?
Everyone is different so you can't compare everyone's intelligence in one pot. Doesn't make sense.
Bill Van Fleet
Active Member
I don't fit in anywhere. I am atheist, and I believe Religion is extremely important.
I believe that almost everyone is wrong in their idea of what Religion is. I believe it is and has always been primarily our adult effort to work together on improving our basic ethical philosophies, our beliefs about what the right things are to do, i.e., how to be a good person.
Our naturally occurring ethics, and therefore Religion, is authoritarian, with legitimization of our ethical beliefs by demonstrating they are consistent with what X wants, X being whoever or whatever is most powerful (parent, leader, culture, deity)
Most religions are indeed theistic, but not all of them. And there are many definitions of "God."
I believe our religions can improve, and are improving, but are relatively early in that process if we consider that process to be one that will go much further than it has so far. I think that process of improvement is a shift to rational ethics and the social contract (by all, for all, not imposed from without).
In that process of working together on our ethics, the role of our religious literature changes. Rather than being a procedure manual, it is part of the diary of our species, expressing the beliefs of the time, and it is useful to study that literature to see how far we have come and get an idea of where we are going. So we continue to write our diary and to study our differences in our ethical beliefs, making use of increasingly accurate existential beliefs provided by the sciences and increasing wisdom regarding our often non-rational thought processes.
In fact, a new tool in that effort is the Humanian Belief Manual, a worldwide listing of proposed beliefs (contributed to by anyone) with the ability to see how much agreement/disagreement there is and the opportunity to study such differences in order to work toward agreement (always with the acceptance of the possibility of new questions and challenges). It is located at HUMANIANITY - GENERAL INTRO.
I think the odds are somewhat low that we will save ourselves from our authoritarian power struggles and the ultimate destruction of our species, but the odds are not zero, and I can't give up the effort to make my little contribution. Hopefully it is a sensible one. Only review by others will clarify that.
I believe that almost everyone is wrong in their idea of what Religion is. I believe it is and has always been primarily our adult effort to work together on improving our basic ethical philosophies, our beliefs about what the right things are to do, i.e., how to be a good person.
Our naturally occurring ethics, and therefore Religion, is authoritarian, with legitimization of our ethical beliefs by demonstrating they are consistent with what X wants, X being whoever or whatever is most powerful (parent, leader, culture, deity)
Most religions are indeed theistic, but not all of them. And there are many definitions of "God."
I believe our religions can improve, and are improving, but are relatively early in that process if we consider that process to be one that will go much further than it has so far. I think that process of improvement is a shift to rational ethics and the social contract (by all, for all, not imposed from without).
In that process of working together on our ethics, the role of our religious literature changes. Rather than being a procedure manual, it is part of the diary of our species, expressing the beliefs of the time, and it is useful to study that literature to see how far we have come and get an idea of where we are going. So we continue to write our diary and to study our differences in our ethical beliefs, making use of increasingly accurate existential beliefs provided by the sciences and increasing wisdom regarding our often non-rational thought processes.
In fact, a new tool in that effort is the Humanian Belief Manual, a worldwide listing of proposed beliefs (contributed to by anyone) with the ability to see how much agreement/disagreement there is and the opportunity to study such differences in order to work toward agreement (always with the acceptance of the possibility of new questions and challenges). It is located at HUMANIANITY - GENERAL INTRO.
I think the odds are somewhat low that we will save ourselves from our authoritarian power struggles and the ultimate destruction of our species, but the odds are not zero, and I can't give up the effort to make my little contribution. Hopefully it is a sensible one. Only review by others will clarify that.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
When you don't fit anywhere, start writing down what you believe and see if you can make friends. That's how most religions start.
stvdv
Veteran Member
24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 38
I like your view
I summarized my view as "Hurt Never Help Ever". That is all I need IMHO.
I like your view
I summarized my view as "Hurt Never Help Ever". That is all I need IMHO.
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Bill Van Fleet
Active Member
That's what I have done above. What do you think? (BTW, I'm not starting a new religion; I'm putting a label on a process I believe is occurring in Religion, a process of improvement, and I'm trying to describe the improvement and contribute a little bit to it.)
Riders
Well-Known Member
Well I think my problem with this thread is that not only are there way too many contradictions but also would go a lot father. The KIng James version of the bible from 1600s has nothing to do with our bible, there's so differences between the old bibles written a long time ago and our bible that its not even the same book give me a break.
I think its actually not the actual bible its a false book not to even mention the lost books of the bible which Christians don't count and the apocrypha which a huge amount of Christians don't count.
Here's a contradiction at one point Jesus says we are to be the peace keepers and keep the peace. Another time he talks about brother being against brother family against family for his name, that you'll be at war if you follow him.
Another thing is that there are Universal scriptures at all groups and religions being the same and yet Christians don't teach it.I think the United Methodists are a little bit Universal its why i went and visited it and I might go back.
The scripture where another group was healing someone in the name of Jesus and his followers rebuked them saying they a en't a part of our group. Jesus said not to rebuke them but if they are not against us they are with us.
I have actually heard a Pastor quote that scripture and say it backwards opposite he said for those aren't us are against us. LMAO>
I think its actually not the actual bible its a false book not to even mention the lost books of the bible which Christians don't count and the apocrypha which a huge amount of Christians don't count.
Here's a contradiction at one point Jesus says we are to be the peace keepers and keep the peace. Another time he talks about brother being against brother family against family for his name, that you'll be at war if you follow him.
Another thing is that there are Universal scriptures at all groups and religions being the same and yet Christians don't teach it.I think the United Methodists are a little bit Universal its why i went and visited it and I might go back.
The scripture where another group was healing someone in the name of Jesus and his followers rebuked them saying they a en't a part of our group. Jesus said not to rebuke them but if they are not against us they are with us.
I have actually heard a Pastor quote that scripture and say it backwards opposite he said for those aren't us are against us. LMAO>
Bill Van Fleet
Active Member
Yes, but there are complicated issues in deciding what is going to help rather than hurt, and in deciding what to do when the options all include some helping and some hurting. Some would say that anger and hostile behavior may help, and others would say that that is never the best option. Did you check out the Humanian Belief Manual? If so, what did you think about it? Do you know how you would vote on some of the proposed beliefs there?
stvdv
Veteran Member
24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 40
My 4 words are my personal reminder. My conscience and many years of study will guide me to come to correct decision most of the time.
I had a look at your link. I saw your name on the forum there. So got the feeling that you created the website maybe [seems like a huge task you did]. The layout is nice and clear. I did read a few parts, and seems quite practical to me, which I like.
My feeling was: A kind of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" as the basis for all other religions/BeliefSystems (including atheism and humanis)
This is what I believe myself. I spend 10 years with a Master in India. He also wrote many practical books. So for the rest of my life I am quite well up to date with knowledge.
My 4 words are my personal reminder. My conscience and many years of study will guide me to come to correct decision most of the time.
I had a look at your link. I saw your name on the forum there. So got the feeling that you created the website maybe [seems like a huge task you did]. The layout is nice and clear. I did read a few parts, and seems quite practical to me, which I like.
My feeling was: A kind of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" as the basis for all other religions/BeliefSystems (including atheism and humanis)
This is what I believe myself. I spend 10 years with a Master in India. He also wrote many practical books. So for the rest of my life I am quite well up to date with knowledge.
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Bill Van Fleet
Active Member
Thank you for the feedback. (Yes, I created the website, but I didn't want it to be about me, but instead to be a worldwide study tool.)
You obviously have spent many, many hours of studying, and I believe that that is an important activity, both for personal benefit and also for the benefit of others. Religious Forums is a study tool, also. It is so important for us to share and compare our beliefs in order to work toward more and more improvement. There is much need for improvement. Much of our Religion tends to keep us somewhat isolated from each other, and some even leads to major conflict and tragedy.
I hope you will continue to explore the website. If it makes sense and seems to be useful, it would be great if you advocated for it. But if any part of it does not seem clear, correct, or sensible, I hope you will give me feedback regarding such problems.
Again, thanks!
Miracle
Christian
If you look at the exmaples you gave, the two require something material: language and time. However, Christianity is simply the belief and living the life is all that requires you to understand.
The same way you would not share your secrets to an unfaithful friend is the same way God will not share who he is with someone who isn’t serious about him.
Security is need when free will is available to all. Once you can prove someone safe then will they be allowed into the sacred.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I will come again, what does that mean? It does not say “I will come to earth again.”
If Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples, and Jesus was going to receive them onto Himself where He was so they could be there also, Jesus would receive them where He was, in heaven.
Did you ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?”
The title Son of man applies to Jesus but it does not apply only to Jesus.
To explain in brief, Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.
You can believe that Jesus is coming back if you want to but Jesus Himself negates that He will ever return. The verses below are not the kind of verses that have more than one meaning and they are not difficult to understand. There is only one plain meaning.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.
Then in the next chapter you have these verses:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
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ecco
Veteran Member
I will not engage in conversation with you. You know why.
ecco
Veteran Member
Uh huh.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Would it be due to massive cognitive dissonance when an unsupported belief is threatened?
ecco
Veteran Member
As I said, he knows why.
stvdv
Veteran Member
24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 41
Keep up your good work. I feel a bit like you, started telling in your RF introduction "I don't fit in anywhere [with the exception of my Master of course]...". So it made my day seeing finally someone who does not claim "my religion/guru is the only way", correct? And who sincerely is about "Love in action", not just proselytizing "my way is the highway", as I see `unfortunately` in the 2 major religions still far too often [accounting for about 4 billion people; of course if the other 3 billion are different it would already be very nice].
`Unfortunately` because it creates so much irritation, seems to be the opposite of Love, which I just wish to see more. Of course this whole universe seems to be about creation/destruction, so I can even imagine that this whole religious fighting is just part of the game. Of the big game at least. Individually one is `free` to get liberated of all this, any time one is fed up enough with it IMO. And live on "eternally Blissful". But even knowing this, seems not to happen so easily in my own experience. This universe is indeed very mysterious, and impossible to understand for me. So better to stick to trying to understand myself. That is already a major challenge and an almost unsolvable puzzle.
That point I found particular very good about you [in your site]. I tried very hard to find your name, but could not. Except of course on the forum in messages. This humbleness is almost enough to promote your site [a little bit of good information is even more reason, and no rubbish motivates even more to promote it; but without humbleness I see no point in promoting, even if the info is good]; nowadays people seem to like their own names better than the information they provide. So congratulations with your site, as far as I have seen now!
I can't promise that, because I passed the phase of study [I am full of DATA now; luckily very good and pure DATA]. Now I need to practice what I have learned. But before I tell others of your site of course I need to check it out more thorough. But first impression is very good.
What I have seen sofar feels good. The focus is on "Love" as the undercurrent in whatever Religion/nonReligion you choose. My Master called it "Unity in Diversity". He even explicitly told all in His discourse "I do not want you to use My Name, it is enough if you follow my advice and teachings; the source you got it from is not important; He even was known to let others have the credits if He gave them the good ideas". So to me the site seems useful, quite in tune with what my Master taught me.
It is good you asked this. Otherwise I would not have done it. There were 2 lines that you need to re-edit IMO. Then it is even better, they were implying the opposite of what the rest of your site was about. I guess it was a "slip of the pen". I let you know in a personal message. Was late yesterday night, I hope I can find it back.
Keep up your good work. I feel a bit like you, started telling in your RF introduction "I don't fit in anywhere [with the exception of my Master of course]...". So it made my day seeing finally someone who does not claim "my religion/guru is the only way", correct? And who sincerely is about "Love in action", not just proselytizing "my way is the highway", as I see `unfortunately` in the 2 major religions still far too often [accounting for about 4 billion people; of course if the other 3 billion are different it would already be very nice].
`Unfortunately` because it creates so much irritation, seems to be the opposite of Love, which I just wish to see more. Of course this whole universe seems to be about creation/destruction, so I can even imagine that this whole religious fighting is just part of the game. Of the big game at least. Individually one is `free` to get liberated of all this, any time one is fed up enough with it IMO. And live on "eternally Blissful". But even knowing this, seems not to happen so easily in my own experience. This universe is indeed very mysterious, and impossible to understand for me. So better to stick to trying to understand myself. That is already a major challenge and an almost unsolvable puzzle.
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IMO, you see what you want to see.
stvdv
Veteran Member
24 jun 2018 stvdv 012 54
That is a deep one.
If that is true for all of us, it might mean "nothing is real"
it is all our own imagination/what we want to see in it
That is a deep one.
If that is true for all of us, it might mean "nothing is real"
it is all our own imagination/what we want to see in it
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Bill Van Fleet
Active Member
You don't need to use personal message. We can do that here. Then maybe others can benefit also.
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Jewish exegetes who read the Scriptures (including the New Testament!) with ‘Jewish eyes through Jewish glasses’ emphasise that Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time. This is, in fact, customary terminology in rabbinical discussion. The opinion of previous Torah exegetes is given first; thereafter the speaker gives his own interpretation as a contribution to the correct understanding (the ‘establishment’) of the Torah. Jesus is speaking completely within the confines of the arguments of the Judaism of His time and this corresponds with the usual rabbinical way of saying: ‘wa ani omeer lachem’, which is not an introduction to a contradiction of the Torah, but, on the contrary, an elucidation thereof. "Far from being ‘unique‘, this is a basic tenet of the ‘verbal Torah’ and accordingly it has many parallels in the Talmudic writings. ‘You have heard’ or ‘It is said’ followed by ‘And I say to you’ actually constitute a pair of fixed expressions in the basic vocabulary of rabbinical rhetoric."[ Jesus uses the common way of speaking to give His Torah explanation, and that He in no way intends to express Himself ‘antithetically’ about Torah and tradition, and that He intends the radically break with it even less. That is a Christian construction that came afterwards.
Context is everything