How Do You Believe You bring/make Heaven on Earth.

[Erebus]

I went with "There will never be heaven on Earth" though that comes with the caveat that I'm not omniscient and therefore can't say that this is an absolute guarantee.

Humanity on the whole is pretty short-sighted and there's a tendency for power and resources to accumulate in the hands of those least willing to work for the good of all. Unless that changes (and I don't see it happening) then we'll never get past some of the more basic problems standing in the way of a utopian society, let alone heaven on Earth. War, climate change, poverty and hunger are just a few examples of issues that are essentially self-inflicted but show no signs of ending.

On top of that, you also have to consider that what constitutes utopia/heaven will vary from person to person. One man's heaven could easily be another man's hell. Unless we could get a universal agreement on what heaven should look like, you're always going to have some people left out in the cold. You then have to consider that universal agreement could easily be seen as dystopian in and of itself. Without differences of opinion, you effectively erase a fundamental human trait.

So that pretty much leaves some form of divine intervention as our only remaining option. An omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God should certainly be able to create a heaven that genuinely accommodates everybody. Given the world we live in though, I don't believe that such a being exists.

 

[PureX]

It's not my job to make heaven on Earth.

 

[Colt]

Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?

I believe Heaven and earth will always be 2 separate realms. Earth is only our temporary home.

In terms of earth becoming settled in peace and light and life, I believe that the original, pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom of heaven will eventually subdue mankind. It begins with the individual, the neighborhood and eventually the world.

 

[Kenny]

So I'll be honest that I think we are in for many more thousands of years of journey. Here is why. We have an internal enemy, and in a way we are part of a journey or expedition looking for the weapons which will vanquish that enemy. Our enemy comes with us everywhere we go. The difficult challenge and the work of God in us is to eliminate the bad without ruining the good. It is like only keeping things that don't burn, but its more delicate than that. Its more like careful archeology. The wheat is easily destroyed along with the chaff, and that goes both for members of the church and for the treasure within people.

I don't know exactly all that you believe and this is a great time to discover...

Yes! I also believe that we have an eternal enemy (which I will call Satan and his dominions) and to eliminate the bad (I call it renewing the mind--where IMO is where the battle is). And, yes, that goes for the church too. Well said.

Personally, I believe that we are like a toilet paper roll. It has been a real slow thousands of years journey but we are getting to the end of the roll so it is turning quicker, time has accelerated (knowledge and seasons) - and we might be closer than we think.

What we see today is marvelous. Some would say that Christ has already achieved much which was hoped for, however all enemies are not vanquished. There remains poverty, suffering of many kinds, death. Men still go to war. We have corruption still breaking out and poor judgments and often very bad leadership -- all of which are part of the enemy within. The enemy rages, for his time is finite, and we are dragging the enemy along towards his doom. Meanwhile we are straining and tired, but we go on.

Again... I think this is beautifully said. This is where I ultimately believe in... that it will be fulfilled at the coming of the Messiah. Only then will we conquer the expressions of death.

I wouldn't say that we are anywhere near to being finished. I'd say that we have plateaued and are reorganizing for the next level of the expedition. I think to go up we will have to change our ways and get ready for a steeper ascent. More is possible, now. Things are sliding into place and new levels of ascent are now possible. With the world the way it is today there is potential to make great leaps. We align ourselves to God, not God to us. We are drawn to God through God's mercy and kindness. We have to put away judgment against other people. We have to identify what it is that has caused continual splits and strife and counter it. It is God who is making us and not we ourselves, but we are not complete except in the fullness of time which only God can see. So there is trouble for now, and I suspect this for more thousands of years.

WOW! All this hidden treasure that I didn't know was in you.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kenny]

Voted 4th.
We need to work on improving what we have, and perfection stands in the way of good.

An interesting statement. I would have said it the other way around. Can you expound?

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no heaven to be brought to earth. We will have to be satisfied with what we have here.

Personally, I believe that we are like a toilet paper roll. It has been a real slow thousands of years journey but we are getting to the end of the roll so it is turning quicker, time has accelerated (knowledge and seasons) - and we might be closer than we think.

Remember, at the beginning of Covid-19 infection, toilet paper was in short supply and people came to fists to get them all over the world.

 

[Kenny]

None of the poll choices represent my view.

A person creates their own hell through chasing after desires and forming attachments to that which is temporary. Heaven is the underlying eternal being/reality that obscured by these attachments and desires.

I guess that is my lack of communication (the poll has a word limit) - but in the explanation I categorized that as option 2

 

[Kenny]

I believe there already exists a morality code. Mankind is not the author of it. So it's not a matter of agreeing on one I think, rather, it is mankind abiding by the moral code that was authored by the highest power. I'm not too sure tho

I would say #2 in this case as it would require man to work himself into obeying the moral code.

 

[Kenny]

Well said Xavier.

Which means, for me, that none of the 4 choices is the answer.

I would say #2 in this case, as it would require man to work himself into obeying and fulfilling the ultimate moral code?

 

[Kenny]

It's not my job to make heaven on Earth.

What is your job in this case? Or effort?

 

[Kenny]

There is no heaven to be brought to earth. We will have to be satisfied with what we have here.

It seems like a grim future IMO

 

[Fool]

Is it man becoming as gods to make heaven on earth or is it man to through his efforts to become a god or one with a presence, or is it God coming to man to help him make heaven on earth?

Maybe there are other variations?

I chose the God coming down to earth to eventually make heaven on earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the sending of what we call the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world as the answer for the world and its issues.

Looking at the first option where man is a god and that he has the ultimate answer to today societal problems. As I view today, the results of man and his efforts, I don’t see that as a possible answer even over time.

With all the technology, capacity and innovation, I don’t see man as having the answers that man needs. As one need is answered others pop up and the problems continue.

When one answer comes to sickness, another pops up.

I don’t see that really changing over time which is why I don’t subscribe to option one. (Not that you can’t subscribe to it but I just don’t see it.)

The second would be that man through any type of works can achieve godhood or be part of the power or a universal presence. Whether by the denial of earthly desires, trying to be free from attachments, or simply trying to be the best person one can be… it just appears to me that we still come short.

We can maybe enumerate with one hand possible candidates. Buddha, Gandhi, Jesus, and maybe a few others, would be the only ones that perhaps may qualify.

Looking at my life I know I wouldn’t qualify. Of the thousands I have met over my lifetime, I know they wouldn’t qualify.

So I can’t see how “working your way up; denying your way up; reincarnating your way up” – just doesn’t seem like a possibility to me. Earth hasn’t progressed so I don’t see that as a viable option even over time.

Thus, I trust the third way where God comes down and actually lifts us up. Though temporarily we could say “for all the believers in Jesus Christ, the world is still the same”, the ultimate end is that God still comes down and brings Heaven to earth.

Not by works, not by human ingenuity or human capacity, but as a free gift of love.

How do you view it?

love being manifested in all it's forms

 

[Kenny]

I believe Heaven and earth will always be 2 separate realms. Earth is only our temporary home.

In terms of earth becoming settled in peace and light and life, I believe that the original, pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom of heaven will eventually subdue mankind. It begins with the individual, the neighborhood and eventually the world.

Do I understand, then, IYV, that it would be #2 where man works his way into making heaven on earth?

 

[Kenny]

Having had a NDE; I shouted out I know Oneness from Hell, and God pulled me up through the dimensions to Heaven.

Heaven was Oneness, and God exists as a 0neness above that.

Earth is in the middle of the dimensional quantum physics with 7 levels above us, and 7 below - Middle Earth.

Earth can not be Heaven as it exists in the highest 4 dimensions, and God is the Source of reality; so the Source of reality can not come here, it already is everything, and we exist inside it.

Yeshua was saying "let it be on earth, as it is in Heaven." - In other words, lets learn to share, unconditionally love, not hate each other, teach each other freely, etc.

For earth to become like Heaven we need to recognize that Hell is full of the unconditional takers, trying to feed themselves with huge forks, that can not reach their mouths; whereas Heaven is full of the unconditional givers, feeding each other with the same long forks.

When scripture says the Lord (YHVH Eloh) will come and reign with our people, that is saying in my understanding that a divine being/archangel/avatar (Eloh) will become the Messiah to lead mankind - which I understand we can show was David, Yeshua, and now me, which I believe we can prove from the world's religions as one.

'We're all like Elohim' (beings breathed by Source), and Children of El Elyon (Highest Source to reality). - Psalms 82:6

No one can become the Source, not even archangels would ever dream to be so egotistical, as it quantifies our whole reality - like a universal central processor (CPU) calculating our whole reality.

Thus to answer your question of does God come down here, it is more I've known since 4-5 years old I'm an avatar (archangel) sent from Heaven with my name in the world's religious texts.

Where I've been sent to explain the Great Deception prior to the Great Tribulation, and after we come to an age of enlightenment; where everyone will then know Source directly, as we will teach advanced meditation again, so people learn to connect to Source directly (Yoga).

In my opinion.

To be honest, all the "levels" are beyond my pay grade but very interesting. But I agree so much with " lets learn to share, unconditionally love, not hate each other, teach each other freely, "

 

[Kenny]

It is not in our nature to do such a thing.

Humanity is too conflicted within. Humans are beautiful.. and humans are terrible. Humans enjoy free will. We choose. We help each other. We fight each other. We love. We hate. We create. We destroy. Humans can not escape our nature, without becoming unhuman. Humanity will never bring about “heaven on earth.” It would take… the intervention of God(s), super intelligent A.I, or some highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization. Even then… it’s doubtful humanity as a whole would even welcome such a transformation.

Just curious... did you vote? If so, which one?

 

[Kenny]

My belief is that the God-made world has already been born but is like a breath of coming spring in the middle of winter. As it gathers force, we see all sorts of dark events like the smoke from a just lit fire.

Right now we have a choice to put our thoughts, words and especially deeds in the service of what has been born to the best of our ability and in spite of our weaknesses.

So to me, God in the form of the eternal Avatar (or Christ if you prefer) has started the transfiguration process and we're invited to help it progress. And that is my answer to your question.

As the Mother of the Sri Aurobindo ashram in India put it:

We are in a very special situation, extremely special, without precedent. We are now witnessing the birth of a new world; it is very young, very weak -- not in its essence but in its outer manifestation -- not yet recognised, not even felt, denied by the majority. But it is here. It is here, making an effort to grow, absolutely *sure* of the result. But the road to it is a completely new road which has never before been traced out -- nobody has gone there, nobody has done that! It is a beginning, a *universal beginning*. So it is an absolutely unexpected and unpredictable adventure.

I agree that we are invited to be part of the transfiguration process and help it progression.

But ultimately, is your position then that we eventually make heaven on earth? Curious.

 

[Kenny]

I went with "There will never be heaven on Earth" though that comes with the caveat that I'm not omniscient and therefore can't say that this is an absolute guarantee.

Humanity on the whole is pretty short-sighted and there's a tendency for power and resources to accumulate in the hands of those least willing to work for the good of all. Unless that changes (and I don't see it happening) then we'll never get past some of the more basic problems standing in the way of a utopian society, let alone heaven on Earth. War, climate change, poverty and hunger are just a few examples of issues that are essentially self-inflicted but show no signs of ending.

On top of that, you also have to consider that what constitutes utopia/heaven will vary from person to person. One man's heaven could easily be another man's hell. Unless we could get a universal agreement on what heaven should look like, you're always going to have some people left out in the cold. You then have to consider that universal agreement could easily be seen as dystopian in and of itself. Without differences of opinion, you effectively erase a fundamental human trait.

So that pretty much leaves some form of divine intervention as our only remaining option. An omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God should certainly be able to create a heaven that genuinely accommodates everybody. Given the world we live in though, I don't believe that such a being exists.

Did you vote #4? (with the caveat of no "absolute guarantee") - As currently viewed, there will never be a heaven on earth?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Heaven was Oneness, and God exists as a 0neness above that.

Where I've been sent to explain the Great Deception prior to the Great Tribulation, and after we come to an age of enlightenment; where everyone will then know Source directly, as we will teach advanced meditation again, so people learn to connect to Source directly (Yoga).
In my opinion.

Wizanda, nice thoughts. But if there is a God, then there is no oneness.
You have been sent with instructions. So, no need to say IMHO. You (simply) know, and no one else does. I have not come across anyone here who says that he has been sent by God.

It seems like a grim future IMO

Why, are you not having a good time?

 

[Kenny]

I like this topic very much, thank you
I just thought about starting a topic titled: "(Why/how) do you spread your beliefs?", but no need anymore

I choose option 1

Why (my opinion):
a) ad.4: There will not be "Heaven" (Peace for all), on earth
b) ad.3: "God" (Full God) won't come to earth, Avatars at the most
c) ad.2: Man needs God's Grace + Good Works to Realize God individually
d) ad.1: We need Wisdom/Love (God), as Good Works, to Realize God (ourselves)


@stvdvRF

Interesting... if we need wisdom/love (God), how do we get it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

An interesting statement. I would have said it the other way around. Can you expound?

For you? Yep!!

As you know, not religious. But I'm a teacher by profession, and very invested in basketball coaching. And a parent, but I'm not sure that comes into it too much.

Kids who don't take risks, and aren't willing...or empowered...to make mistakes don't really learn or achieve. At least, not to their potential. Making mistakes in life is good. Making the same mistake repetitively, not so much.

Perfection...in my world view and in my experience...doesn't exist. Rather than trying to live up to an unrealistic ideal, and seeing each mistake as a failing, we are better to take the next incremental step forward, and treat each mistake as a lesson to learn from.