How do you define "Athesim"?

[NIX]

A person who knows nothing of god concepts at all, is simply unaware- or non-cognizant (as the concept or topic of 'god/s' is concerned).

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

Like I've been saying about god-concepts, though, it's not as if there's nothing common to the vast majority of these notions. If someone professes belief that there's a will, an intention, or some sort of mystical plan to the universe, I call that a god-concept.

I've made this point before too: it's not like a vegetarian has to name every conceivable species of animal they wouldn't eat. Just the general notion that they wouldn't cause suffering to an organism capable of feeling pain is the principle behind their self-identification as vegetarian.

-Nato

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like I've been saying about god-concepts, though, it's not as if there's nothing common to the vast majority of these notions. If someone professes belief that there's a will, an intention, or some sort of mystical plan to the universe, I call that a god-concept.

It's one example of a god-concept, and if we want to limit ourselves to a monotheism-centric view of things, I suppose it might work. I don't want to do that, though.

I've made this point before too: it's not like a vegetarian has to name every conceivable species of animal they wouldn't eat. Just the general notion that they wouldn't cause suffering to an organism capable of feeling pain is the principle behind their self-identification as vegetarian.

-Nato

One of my friends eats eggs on the grounds that since they're unfertilized, they can never grow into an organism that feels pain. He's eating a kind of meat, IMO. Is he a vegetarian?

There are other people who refuse to eat meat and animal products not out of concern for the welfare of animals but out of concern about the environmental effects of livestock farming. Are they vegetarians?

How about someone who would eat meat if he could afford it, but doesn't in order to save money?

These sort of distinctions are trickier than you think.

 

[Willamena]

One thing atheists don't seem to get that theism has nothing to do with a "god concept."

 

[MissAlice]

A person who knows nothing of god concepts at all, is simply unaware- or non-cognizant (as the concept or topic of 'god/s' is concerned).

Never been my experience. For a long time I was always praying and self reflecting on the idea of an entity outside myself. In fact I was a big defender of god belief. Now I just praise nature and what science has to offer. Whenever I reflect on the stars I call it awe not god as god is more or less a person whom you can actually communicate to. So far I've seen no evidence of such a belief but you are welcome to yours.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One thing atheists don't seem to get that theism has nothing to do with a "god concept."

That's a new one. How do you figure?

 

[MissAlice]

One thing atheists don't seem to get that theism has nothing to do with a "god concept."

I'm sorry I don't understand. I realize there are many different beliefs and ideologies concerning god/s/ and animism. I'm a little confuzzled could you explain?

 

[Sunstone]

One thing atheists don't seem to get that theism has nothing to do with a "god concept."

If you had said, "Theism is about more than a god concept", I might understand you. For it seems to me that at least some theism is very much about a god concept.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, I think so. I think it's a position, an opinion. You may not know you have an opinion until someone draws attention to it, so I'm not going to discount that possibility, but in general, I think it is a cognitive, conscious position.


Whichever. I don't think we need to add a freewill duel on top of this. We, at the very least, have an illusion of freewill, and you can take the concept of "choose" in that sort of spirit.

It's not a question of free will. I don't exercise conscious choice OR the illusion of choice over what I believe any more than I have conscious control over the function of my organs.

Neither. I just mean that you haven't been convinced to believe that god exists. (And to prevent another round of Gargles, with the caveats that you are aware of what is being talked about and that you have the conscious ability to hold the opinion that you don't believe that anything in that category exists.)

So in your view, atheism is something like a positive belief about your lack of belief in gods?

If so, I think that's too restrictive. I can't remember how many times I've heard people (including myself) say things like "I was an atheist for years before I realized it." I don't think your way of defining the term matches with how people actually use it.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

It's one example of a god-concept, and if we want to limit ourselves to a monotheism-centric view of things, I suppose it might work. I don't want to do that, though.

You missed my point. I meant that anything that ascribes an intent or purpose to ostensibly random events constitutes a religious claim. Whether it's the intentional activity of one god, one of many gods, or the workings of some mystical plan, it's the concept of the intent that matters, not the identity of the agent. I consider myself an atheist because I deny any such notion of agency in the universe.

One of my friends eats eggs on the grounds that since they're unfertilized, they can never grow into an organism that feels pain. He's eating a kind of meat, IMO. Is he a vegetarian?

There are other people who refuse to eat meat and animal products not out of concern for the welfare of animals but out of concern about the environmental effects of livestock farming. Are they vegetarians?

How about someone who would eat meat if he could afford it, but doesn't in order to save money?

These sort of distinctions are trickier than you think.

Um, once again, you're missing the point. All I meant is that people aren't obliged to be comprehensive and specific before they can consider themselves vegetarian. Whether they say that their reasoning for not eating meat is based on not causing suffering to animals, protecting the environment, or saving money, they don't have to deal with the specifics of exactly what animals they won't eat.

-Nato

 

[Willamena]

Theism is about belief in god; when you set aside "god concepts" as something possible for folks to believe in, you're essentially discussing idolatry.

 

[Magic Man]

Theism is about belief in god;

Exactly. Then you just have to define God, which is where god-concepts come in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You missed my point. I meant that anything that ascribes an intent or purpose to ostensibly random events constitutes a religious claim.

I disagree, and in any case, "religious" does not necessarily equal "theistic".

Whether it's the intentional activity of one god, one of many gods, or the workings of some mystical plan, it's the concept of the intent that matters, not the identity of the agent. I consider myself an atheist because I deny any such notion of agency in the universe.

I'd say the identity of the agent does matter. What you just said could just as easily describe a conspiracy theorist or an alien abduction believer as it could a theist.

Um, once again, you're missing the point. All I meant is that people aren't obliged to be comprehensive and specific before they can consider themselves vegetarian. Whether they say that their reasoning for not eating meat is based on not causing suffering to animals, protecting the environment, or saving money, they don't have to deal with the specifics of exactly what animals they won't eat.

But do they have to consider themselves a vegetarian? The person who just doesn't eat meat because he can't afford it might say that he isn't one if you asked him.

 

[NIX]

Never been my experience. For a long time I was always praying and self reflecting on the idea of an entity outside myself. In fact I was a big defender of god belief. Now I just praise nature and what science has to offer. Whenever I reflect on the stars I call it awe not god as god is more or less a person whom you can actually communicate to. So far I've seen no evidence of such a belief but you are welcome to yours.

This was your response to

Originally Posted by NIX
A person who knows nothing of god concepts at all, is simply unaware- or non-cognizant (as the concept or topic of 'god/s' is concerned).

I was speaking of those who literally know nothing of any god concepts though. Like babies, or children who have not been taught about any 'gods' or concepts of gods, or beliefs of religions. Babies keep getting brought up in this thread. Babies are unaware, and non-cognizant and unable to grasp or understand ideas (concepts or possibilities) of 'god'. Others might include those who are developmentally handicapped, or have some kind of condition that makes them non-cognizant or unable to think the idea through and remember their conclusions, thoughts or experiences coherently.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

I disagree, and in any case, "religious" does not necessarily equal "theistic".

I'd say the identity of the agent does matter. What you just said could just as easily describe a conspiracy theorist or an alien abduction believer as it could a theist.


But do they have to consider themselves a vegetarian? The person who just doesn't eat meat because he can't afford it might say that he isn't one if you asked him.

I'm through arguing about this. I'm not trying to establish some objective basis for applying labels to everyone else's beliefs, I'm explaining what the basis of my nonbelief is. I do not, in fact, have to understand the specifics of every religious idea or god-concept that I could conceivably oppose before calling myself an atheist, any more than a vegetarian has to list every species he or she wouldn't eat, and the minute details of their rationale for not eating each and every one, before choosing to self-identify as a vegetarian.

Thanks.

-Nato

 

[NIX]

Theism is about belief in god; when you set aside "god concepts" as something possible for folks to believe in, you're essentially discussing idolatry.

Not every god requires belief. Some understandings and experiences- or realizations - of 'god' are far more conceptual in nature.

 

[Willamena]

Not every god requires belief. Some understandings and experiences- or realizations - of 'god' are far more conceptual in nature.

Not everyone is a theist or an atheist--right.

But theism is to believe in god, and to sit around and discuss "god concepts" that people might believe in is a change of topic to idolatry.

 

[NIX]

Not everyone is a theist or an atheist--right.

But theism is to believe in god, and to sit around and discuss "god concepts" that people might believe in is a change of topic to idolatry.

Why not start a new thread? It would be interesting to see what all kinds of people view idolatry as.

 

[Magic Man]

But theism is to believe in god, and to sit around and discuss "god concepts" that people might believe in is a change of topic to idolatry.

Not true. To sit around and discuss god-concepts is to stay on topic and figure out what the "god" refers to in the phrase "to believe in god". Without a definition for the word, you can't really discuss it.

 

[Willamena]

Why not start a new thread? It would be interesting to see what all kinds of people view idolatry as.

Yeah; but if I did that, no one would talk there because they're all over here.