How do you define evolution?

[Windwalker]

I am finding that genetics do not prove evolution.

You're a scientist? What's your field that you take issue with the experts in these fields? "Just because" isn't really a valid reason.

Yes, I know there is no proof, but genetics is certainly misleading if one wants to apply it to evolution. I'm not sure, but black bears tend to reproduce black bears, and I suppose white bears reproduce white bears. What do you think?

I think bears produce black bears and white bears, depending on the environment. That's the way evolution works. Someone referenced the peppered moth in another post. It's a short read, but if you look at this, you'll see exactly how this works in evolution in a short period time. The proof is right here: Peppered Moths: Natural Selection

BTW, I'm curious why you think it's necessary to deny evolution in order to believe in God. I don't. Why do you feel you need to challenge the experts when you aren't one yourself?

 

[YoursTrue]

Just so long as you realise that include the entire community of scientifically literate people. So it’s rather like calling people who believe the sun is at the centre of the solar system “heliocentrists”.

If a person is not "scientifically literate," as you say, but they accept the theory of evolution per se, would you include them as evolutionists, or believers of the process considered to be that of evolution?

 

[YoursTrue]

You're a scientist? What's your field that you take issue with the experts in these fields? "Just because" isn't really a valid reason.


I think bears produce black bears and white bears, depending on the environment. That's the way evolution works. Someone referenced the peppered moth in another post. It's a short read, but if you look at this, you'll see exactly how this works in evolution in a short period time. The proof is right here: Peppered Moths: Natural Selection

BTW, I'm curious why you think it's necessary to deny evolution in order to believe in God. I don't. Why do you feel you need to challenge the experts when you aren't one yourself?

Show me why and how genetics prove evolution, ok?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am finding that genetics do not prove evolution. Yes, I know there is no proof, but genetics is certainly misleading if one wants to apply it to evolution. I'm not sure, but black bears tend to reproduce black bears, and I suppose white bears reproduce white bears. What do you think?

Once again, nothing proves a theory. How many times have you been told that to date? Many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.

The evidence of genetics supports the theory of evolution. That you do not understand it is not evidence that the theory fails. It isn't misleading. I suspect it is your understanding of genetics and your bias to deny anything that supports the theory that is misleading.

Did you expect bears of many colors? If there were coat color differences in the progeny, this could be accounted for and observed in a study of the genes. I am not sure what you are trying to say here. As is often the case, your statements sort of hang incomprehensibly in conversation space without saying much.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Show me why and how genetics prove evolution, ok?

I think that proof in this instance is being used interchangeably to mean evidence. Many people have provided you with many examples of the genetic evidence of evolution on many different threads many different times. Repeating your request for more of the same is not evidence that this has not been done or that genetics does not support evolution.

What is clear and has been since early in your presence here is that no amount of evidence, reason or logic will persuade you to make an honest assessment of the evidence or change your views based on that evidence.

 

[night912]

While human fetuses have eyes forming that move from side to front this does not prove that humans evolved from fish by "natural selection." No matter what you say. Bye for now.

Of course that doesn't prove it because that's not how evolution works. The development of a human fetus to adulthood is not what the Theory of Evolution theorized. Only those who are opposed to the theory and are ignorant of it, would make that objection thinking that it's the nail in the coffin for the ToE.

After you are willing to acknowledge what the ToE propose, go do some research on it and understand what the theory propose as the mechanism of evolution, then and only then, will you be qualify to debate the ToE and present your objections. If you cannot first acknowledge that, like how you currently are, you will never be qualify to have an intellectual and reasonable discussion that's not time wasting. The only reason for engaging in a discussion about evolution that is not time wasting is for sheer entertainment.

 

[YoursTrue]

You're a scientist? What's your field that you take issue with the experts in these fields? "Just because" isn't really a valid reason.


I think bears produce black bears and white bears, depending on the environment. That's the way evolution works. Someone referenced the peppered moth in another post. It's a short read, but if you look at this, you'll see exactly how this works in evolution in a short period time. The proof is right here: Peppered Moths: Natural Selection

BTW, I'm curious why you think it's necessary to deny evolution in order to believe in God. I don't. Why do you feel you need to challenge the experts when you aren't one yourself?

Black bears are still bears, aren't they? And white bears are bears. As far as I understand, they can interbreed. And they're still bears.
The Bible says that God made the various elements, including man who was made in God's image. The entire spectrum of life, including basic cell structure is so wonderfully complex that there is no longer any doubt in my mind that God made these things possible, and not by the process of natural selection.. God had a distinct, definite creative force in the various forms of life on this earth.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Black bears are still bears, aren't they? And white bears are bears. As far as I understand, they can interbreed. And they're still bears.

Did you expect black bears or polar bears to suddenly become whales or ducks? That would not be evolution. That would be magic.

 

[exchemist]

Black bears are still bears, aren't they? And white bears are bears. As far as I understand, they can interbreed. And they're still bears.
The Bible says that God made the various elements, including man who was made in God's image. The entire spectrum of life, including basic cell structure is so wonderfully complex that there is no longer any doubt in my mind that God made these things possible, and not by the process of natural selection.. God had a distinct, definite creative force in the various forms of life on this earth.

Many scientists in past centuries and today would agree with those sentiments. During the Age of Enlightenment, when science was making its first big strides, most people saw the intricacy and systematic operation of nature that science revealed as evidence of a Creator. (Haydn's "Creation", "Die Schöpfung", is largely a celebration of that). There is still plenty of room to think this, even today. But one has to avoid falling into the fallacy of the God of the Gaps, or the equally dismal trap of rejecting science whenever it doesn't suit one's personal interpretation of scripture.

 

[shunyadragon]

If a person is not "scientifically literate," as you say, but they accept the theory of evolution per se, would you include them as evolutionists, or believers of the process considered to be that of evolution?

The references in this thread are scientists, like myself, are 'significantly literate' in science. Literacy in the sciences related to evolution only requires a basic understanding of English,or ones native language and a high school education.


The problem here is you are intentionally 'significantly illiterate' in science. Example: You made statements rejecting the genetic evidence for evolution without any basic knowledge of genetics.

 

[Windwalker]

Show me why and how genetics prove evolution, ok?

Easy Google search: Genetics and the causes of evolution: 150 years of progress since Darwin

 

[Windwalker]

Black bears are still bears, aren't they? And white bears are bears. As far as I understand, they can interbreed. And they're still bears.

But just to remind you, you originally said that only black bears produce black bears and not white bears. I gave an example of how black bears through the process of evolution in fact do produce predominantly white bears. You've already been shown that does happen in the example of the peppered moths, I linked you to read.

Speciation is that same process, drawn out of much longer periods of time, say for instance those black bears could no longer genetically reproduce with other bears and become classified as another species. It's the same process you have rock solid evidence for with the peppered moths, simply extended over greater time periods.

The Bible says that God made the various elements, including man who was made in God's image.

Sure! It doesn't specify the actual mechanisms of how that happened, does it? Imagine the Bible writers somehow actually knowing what modern science does magically without any of the tools it has at its disposal? No one would understand it! Not even the authors!

Same thing if a scientific understanding 2000 years in our own futures were to suddenly be presented to us. No one would understand it! It would be discarded as meaningless to anyone alive today.

So when the Bible simply says "God made us", and uses very simplistic, childlike images of clay and magic appearances, that is something a child can understand. And a child is what they were. They were not modern scientists!

Why is it so hard to take what science shows in how evolution creates all these wondrous and magical creations of nature, and understand that as how God creates? Genesis can easily be understood as true from a high-level, "God creates all life" understanding, simply using metaphorical language that a child could understanding without needing an advanced degree in microbiology?

Evolution does not deny God. It only means you need to understand your reading of Genesis a little more symbolically, and less literal sciency. It's not meant to be sciency. It's meant to be spiritual. Our ideas about God, and what God is, are different things. Thank God for science to tell us a little bit more about God!

The entire spectrum of life, including basic cell structure is so wonderfully complex that there is no longer any doubt in my mind that God made these things possible

Me too. Except I cannot reject the facts of the data we have in order to support an earlier, outdated idea about how God actually creates.

, and not by the process of natural selection..

You're saying God could not use evolution to create? He has to do it according to the rules you set for Him? How does that work? You set the limits for God because you interpreted a story about Creation a certain way in your mind, and science has to fit that or it's wrong? God can't create through evolution, because you say so?

God had a distinct, definite creative force in the various forms of life on this earth.

I believe that as well. All life is magically and wonderfully created by the Divine. And evolution is how the Divine creates. That creation continues from moment to moment, not just once in the ancient past. The evidence of that is abundantly springing up around us everyday. I see evolution as the Divine Spirit in motion. Why can't you?

What's more likely true, that the majority of the world's scientists in multiple fields of the sciences are all wrong, or that your reading of Genesis could be misguided a little? The answer to that seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

 

[YoursTrue]

But just to remind you, you originally said that only black bears produce black bears and not white bears. I gave an example of how black bears through the process of evolution in fact do produce predominantly white bears. You've already been shown that does happen in the example of the peppered moths, I linked you to read.

I reviewed my post which I think you are saying I said black bears produce only black bears, etc., I don't see that I said black bears produce only black bears, or white bears produce only white bears. What I see I did say is that bears (white OR black) produce bears. If you can show me where I said black bears produce only black bears and so forth., I would like to see that. Thanks.
One thing at a time.

 

[YoursTrue]

But just to remind you, you originally said that only black bears produce black bears and not white bears. I gave an example of how black bears through the process of evolution in fact do produce predominantly white bears. You've already been shown that does happen in the example of the peppered moths, I linked you to read.

Speciation is that same process, drawn out of much longer periods of time, say for instance those black bears could no longer genetically reproduce with other bears and become classified as another species. It's the same process you have rock solid evidence for with the peppered moths, simply extended over greater time periods.


Sure! It doesn't specify the actual mechanisms of how that happened, does it? Imagine the Bible writers somehow actually knowing what modern science does magically without any of the tools it has at its disposal? No one would understand it! Not even the authors!

Same thing if a scientific understanding 2000 years in our own futures were to suddenly be presented to us. No one would understand it! It would be discarded as meaningless to anyone alive today.

So when the Bible simply says "God made us", and uses very simplistic, childlike images of clay and magic appearances, that is something a child can understand. And a child is what they were. They were not modern scientists!

Why is it so hard to take what science shows in how evolution creates all these wondrous and magical creations of nature, and understand that as how God creates? Genesis can easily be understood as true from a high-level, "God creates all life" understanding, simply using metaphorical language that a child could understanding without needing an advanced degree in microbiology?

Evolution does not deny God. It only means you need to understand your reading of Genesis a little more symbolically, and less literal sciency. It's not meant to be sciency. It's meant to be spiritual. Our ideas about God, and what God is, are different things. Thank God for science to tell us a little bit more about God!


Me too. Except I cannot reject the facts of the data we have in order to support an earlier, outdated idea about how God actually creates.


You're saying God could not use evolution to create? He has to do it according to the rules you set for Him? How does that work? You set the limits for God because you interpreted a story about Creation a certain way in your mind, and science has to fit that or it's wrong? God can't create through evolution, because you say so?


I believe that as well. All life is magically and wonderfully created by the Divine. And evolution is how the Divine creates. That creation continues from moment to moment, not just once in the ancient past. The evidence of that is abundantly springing up around us everyday. I see evolution as the Divine Spirit in motion. Why can't you?

What's more likely true, that the majority of the world's scientists in multiple fields of the sciences are all wrong, or that your reading of Genesis could be misguided a little? The answer to that seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

You don't know if God made living organisms by evolution. It may appear that way from fossil finds, or similar genetics, but there is no real hard core evidence in motion such as a change from one type of organism, such as fish to land-roving strictly air breathing animals as there might be if observed in motion or real live organisms evolving to become another type of organism.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You don't know if God made living organisms by evolution. It may appear that way from fossil finds, or similar genetics, but there is no real hard core evidence in motion such as a change from one type of organism, such as fish to land-roving strictly air breathing animals as there might be if observed in motion or real live organisms evolving to become another type of organism.

In motion? What does that mean? If you find fossils running, then you will accept the theory of evolution?

The evidence of genetics, fossils, biology, etc. all provide evidence that supports that organisms have evolved over time. What you demand you cannot even provide to support what you believe in. I don't believe God would promote a double standard. Why do you?

 

[YoursTrue]

Many scientists in past centuries and today would agree with those sentiments. During the Age of Enlightenment, when science was making its first big strides, most people saw the intricacy and systematic operation of nature that science revealed as evidence of a Creator. (Haydn's "Creation", "Die Schöpfung", is largely a celebration of that). There is still plenty of room to think this, even today. But one has to avoid falling into the fallacy of the God of the Gaps, or the equally dismal trap of rejecting science whenever it doesn't suit one's personal interpretation of scripture.

The intricacy of nature is certainly a reason to actually believe in a Power that has intelligence who made these things possible and -- who designed things that 'we' (humans) did not make. Does that mean I think God made hurtful mutations? No. But the genetic process is involved and can go haywire, not necessarily to the advantage of the person. I don't want to get too technical, since while science has certainly figured things out, let's say about producing vaccines, fixing debilitating situations medically, scientists have also made some grave medical errors. I take vaccinations, my cousin is a research scientist in the medical field, another cousin is a doctor, my uncle was a surgeon. Etc. If I would go back to school I myself might go into a science field rather than the field I originally went into. There is much to do and much to learn.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Black bears are still bears, aren't they? And white bears are bears. As far as I understand, they can interbreed. And they're still bears.
The Bible says that God made the various elements, including man who was made in God's image. The entire spectrum of life, including basic cell structure is so wonderfully complex that there is no longer any doubt in my mind that God made these things possible, and not by the process of natural selection.. God had a distinct, definite creative force in the various forms of life on this earth.

You believe something. You deny the evidence and theories formulated to explain the evidence. You haven't really got a clue. You just picked something to believe that fits with the doctrine of the religious group you chose.

That being the case, the only reason I can figure for you to beat this endlessly about the head and neck is to put down science and those that understand and accept scientific explanations. It does not appear that you are asking because you are open to being persuaded by evidence and sound, logical arguments.

If you persist in the denial of science and evidence, why bother involving yourself in discussions like this?

 

[YoursTrue]

The references in this thread are scientists, like myself, are 'significantly literate' in science. Literacy in the sciences related to evolution only requires a basic understanding of English,or ones native language and a high school education.


The problem here is you are intentionally 'significantly illiterate' in science. Example: You made statements rejecting the genetic evidence for evolution without any basic knowledge of genetics.

Despite what you think and obviously believe, genetics is NOT evidence of evolution. It is actually evidence of the creative ability of the One who is the Maker and Enabler of life. Ant brains are (lol) definitely different than human brains.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The intricacy of nature is certainly a reason to actually believe in a Power that has intelligence who made these things possible and -- who designed things that 'we' (humans) did not make. Does that mean I think God made hurtful mutations? No. But the genetic process is involved and can go haywire, not necessarily to the advantage of the person. I don't want to get too technical, since while science has certainly figured things out, let's say about producing vaccines, fixing debilitating situations medically, scientists have also made some grave medical errors. I take vaccinations, my cousin is a research scientist in the medical field, another cousin is a doctor, my uncle was a surgeon. Etc. If I would go back to school I myself might go into a science field rather than the field I originally went into. There is much to do and much to learn.

I doubt you can get technical to any degree, let alone too. You have an argument from incredulity. You cannot understand how nature works, therefore what you believe is your default explanation without evidence.

I am curious. Do you think God gave us intelligence, curiosity, the abilities to examine the world He created and the ability to learn just so we can deny what we learn to placate those that cannot or do not bother to use those gifts?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Despite what you think and obviously believe, genetics is NOT evidence of evolution. It is actually evidence of the creative ability of the One who is the Maker and Enabler of life. Ant brains are (lol) definitely different than human brains.

You can deny it all you like, but it is evidence supporting evolution.

Show us that it is evidence for a Creator. You cannot do it.

What do ant and human brains have to do with genetics as evidence of evolution? It is difficult to follow your incomprehensible posts often.