How do you detect "design"?

[URAVIP2ME]

We have 4 limbs as do cat, dog, whales, everything on earth with a backbone because we are all evolved from the same tetrapod ancestor. Not design, evolution.
as for acorns, why do my little Osage orange trees have softball size fruit. There is nothing alive big enough to eat them on this continent and they don't grow where elephants are which might be big enough. incompetent design maybe or just evolution again.
We know how evolution works and it is not design.

I like how you say 'small' or 'little' Osage orange trees because who sits under such a tree compared to under a mighty oak tree and would Not have to worry about a watermelon-sized acorn falling down on them.

Even if God used evolution in some lower-life forms that is Not where humans are concerned
God formed or fashioned Adam from the already existing ground - Genesis 2:7
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to none life - Genesis 2:17

 

[Pogo]

A mighty oak tree is designed to have small acorns on it instead of the size of pumpkins or watermelons
There is No design for a 'watermelon tree' or a 'pumpkin tree' because it would Not be safe to sit under huge melons or pumpkins over head

Your designer is Evil.
Falling coconuts can cause injury to the head, back, and shoulders. A 4-year review of trauma admissions to the Provincial Hospital, Alotau, Milne Bay Province, Papua New Guinea, revealed that 2.5% of such admissions were due to being struck by falling coconuts. Since mature coconut palms may have a height of 24 up to 35 meters and an unhusked coconut may weigh 1 to 4 kg, blows to the head of a force exceeding 1 metric ton are possible. Four patients with head injuries due to falling coconuts are described. Two required craniotomy. Two others died instantly in the village after being struck by dropping nuts.

But I do have to give you credit for a new and different creationist argument for a designer. As bad as it is, it appears to me to be original, unless you want to cop to the source.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's not about a goal of nature or a goal of the organisms, it is about the goal of the designer. The universe and life were made in such a way that it is possible to have the tree shape instead of the ladder shape, and organisms could fill every niche.

..... and to me the goal of the Designer (aka God) is for healthy humans to inhabit the forever Earth forever

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Your designer is Evil.
Falling coconuts can cause injury to the head, back, and shoulders. A 4-year review of trauma admissions to the Provincial Hospital, Alotau, Milne Bay Province, Papua New Guinea, revealed that 2.5% of such admissions were due to being struck by falling coconuts. Since mature coconut palms may have a height of 24 up to 35 meters and an unhusked coconut may weigh 1 to 4 kg, blows to the head of a force exceeding 1 metric ton are possible. Four patients with head injuries due to falling coconuts are described. Two required craniotomy. Two others died instantly in the village after being struck by dropping nuts.
But I do have to give you credit for a new and different creationist argument for a designer. As bad as it is, it appears to me to be original, unless you want to cop to the source.

... and where do we find coconut trees but where people should know to steer clear of them
Why should or do people wear hard hats

 

[Pogo]

I like how you say 'small' or 'little' Osage orange trees because who sits under such a tree compared to under a mighty oak tree and would Not have to worry about a watermelon-sized acorn falling down on them.

Even if God used evolution in some lower-life forms that is Not where humans are concerned
God formed or fashioned Adam from the already existing ground - Genesis 2:7
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to none life - Genesis 2:17

Small relatively because it only grows to about 45' tall, but then there are Walnuts. Have you seen a walnut as it falls off a tree. Might not kill you, but it will kill most any plant growing under the tree.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes that is the point, we can say the cabin is designed because we know who can and how they do it.
As you say nature does the seeds. I.e. beyond that we don't know maybe there is design, maybe there isn't, we may believe something but we don't know. Hence we are agnostic to a designer.

Sure we know there is design in seeds because if we plant corn we get corn, if we plant sunflowers we get sunflowers, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Small relatively because it only grows to about 45' tall, but then there are Walnuts. Have you seen a walnut as it falls off a tree. Might not kill you, but it will kill most any plant growing under the tree.

Yes, I use a hard hat when raking in the fall so those many black walnuts won't be a problem, so far only one direct hit in 25 years.

 

[Pogo]

..... and to me the goal of the Designer (aka God) is for healthy humans to inhabit the forever Earth forever

That's why he designed plagues and cancers and a back that causes pain because it is not appropriate for walking upright though it works fine for walking on four feet.
Don't forget the laryngeal nerve that takes a detour around the heart from our neck to our head. And speaking of intelligent design, there are wisdom teeth that need to be extracted because our jaws are not large enough to accommodate them.

Then we will get to the point that we humans are well on our way to making much of the earth uninhabitable for us. temperatures in India with a billion people exceeding 50 c ~125 F. Humans can't survive that for long.

This is not a good argument.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If it is design, why isn't there a Laphroaig bush in my yard?

'I'd like to join you after Armageddon (war to end all wars - Psalm 46:9; Micah 4:3-4) in enjoying a glass of Laphroaig scotch
Where would it be a good place to meet for that drink ?

 

[Pogo]

... and where do we find coconut trees but where people should know to steer clear of them
Why should or do people wear hard hats

Well then if he really cared, trees would grow with signs in all languages saying hard hat area and hard hat bushes would grow around them.

It is as if these things are just natural occurrences that are indistinguishable from a world without a designer.

On the other hand maybe it was the designer that created fungi on fruit and grains that create alcohol as a byproduct which is responsible for so many human babies.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's why he designed plagues and cancers and a back that causes pain because it is not appropriate for walking upright though it works fine for walking on four feet.
Don't forget the laryngeal nerve that takes a detour around the heart from our neck to our head. And speaking of intelligent design, there are wisdom teeth that need to be extracted because our jaws are not large enough to accommodate them.
Then we will get to the point that we humans are well on our way to making much of the earth uninhabitable for us. temperatures in India with a billion people exceeding 50 c ~125 F. Humans can't survive that for long.
This is not a good argument.

So, easy to forget the challenge to us and the man Job ( Job 2:4-5 )
Satan challenges us ' touch our flesh......' ( Loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God ( for such reasons as expressed above )
I find for some people the only wisdom they have are their wisdom teeth. I still accommodate my wisdom teeth
Climate change warming warnings have been ongoing in my life span due to 'humans' causing damage
Even litter is pollution, and we have plenty of road-side litter around here
As Revelation 11:18 B says that God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth
So, God is Not to blame, but rather that man has dominated man to man's hurt, man's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

 

[Pogo]

Sure we know there is design in seeds because if we plant corn we get corn, if we plant sunflowers we get sunflowers, etc.

First rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging.

 

[Pogo]

So, easy to forget the challenge to us and the man Job ( Job 2:4-5 )
Satan challenges us ' touch our flesh......' ( Loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God ( for such reasons as expressed above )
I find for some people the only wisdom they have are their wisdom teeth. I still accommodate my wisdom teeth
Climate change warming warnings have been ongoing in my life span due to 'humans' causing damage
Even litter is pollution, and we have plenty of road-side litter around here
As Revelation 11:18 B says that God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth
So, God is Not to blame, but rather that man has dominated man to man's hurt, man's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9

Always ready with an excuse. LOL
Blame it on a different imaginary guy.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem I have is there is no way to tell how to find the correct religion.

It was No problem for Jesus. Jesus taught Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17
So, to me the correct religion would be the one Jesus taught
Problem is: just as Jesus forewarned us that MANY would come in his name but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23
That does Not mean there is No way to tell the truth but that MANY prefer the lie - 2nd Timothy 4:3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging.

When I was a kid I wondered why people didn't dig a hole straight to China.... oh well .... I dug about 3 feet down in the back yard.
However, that does Not mean we should stop digging for knowledge, or stop adding to one's fund of knowledge.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................................I am not one to assume design whenever I see a pattern.

People even look for design in clouds. One cloud reminds one of something, another cloud reminds another of something else.
Bible people can see a pattern when God used the Babylonians, when God used the Roman armies in the year 70 as His arm of the law.
So, it will be No surprise that the pattern is the same when God uses the political/military as His arm of the law against corrupted religion.

 

[Pogo]

People even look for design in clouds. One cloud reminds one of something, another cloud reminds another of something else.
Bible people can see a pattern when God used the Babylonians, when God used the Roman armies in the year 70 as His arm of the law.
So, it will be No surprise that the pattern is the same when God uses the political/military as His arm of the law against corrupted religion.

Yes seeing patterns and attributing them to agency is an evolutionary strategy but says nothing about whether the agent actually exists.

Agenticity​

published June 2009

Why people believe that invisible agents
control the world​

Souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens, intelligent designers, government conspirators, and all manner of invisible agents with power and intention are believed to haunt our world and control our lives. Why?
The answer has two parts, starting with the concept of “patternicity,” which I defined in my December 2008 column as the human tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. Consider the face on Mars, the Virgin Mary on a grilled-cheese sandwich, satanic messages in rock music. Of course, some patterns are real. Finding predictive patterns in changing weather, fruiting trees, migrating prey animals and hungry predators was central to the survival of Paleolithic hominids.
The problem is that we did not evolve a baloney-detection device in our brains to discriminate between true and false patterns. So we make two types of errors: a type I error, or false positive, is believing a pattern is real when it is not; a type II error, or false negative, is not believing a pattern is real when it is. If you believe that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind (a type I error), you are more likely to survive than if you believe that the rustle in the grass is just the wind when it is a dangerous predator (a type II error). Because the cost of making a type I error is less than the cost of making a type II error and because there is no time for careful deliberation between patternicities in the split-second world of predator-prey interactions, natural selection would have favored those animals most likely to assume that all patterns are real.
But we do something other animals do not do. As large-brained hominids with a developed cortex and a theory of mind — the capacity to be aware of such mental states as desires and intentions in both ourselves and others — we infer agency behind the patterns we observe in a practice I call “agenticity”: the tendency to believe that the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents. We believe that these intentional agents control the world, sometimes invisibly from the top down (as opposed to bottom-up causal randomness). Together patternicity and agenticity form the cognitive basis of shamanism, paganism, animism, polytheism, monotheism, and all modes of Old and New Age spiritualisms.
Agenticity carries us far beyond the spirit world. The Intelligent Designer is said to be an invisible agent who created life from the top down. Aliens are often portrayed as powerful beings coming down from on high to warn us of our impending self-destruction. Conspiracy theories predictably include hidden agents at work behind the scenes, puppet-masters pulling political and economic strings as we dance to the tune of the Bilderbergers, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers or the Illuminati. Even the belief that the government can impose top-down measures to rescue the economy is a form of agenticity, with President Barack Obama being touted as “the one” with almost messianic powers who will save us.
There is now substantial evidence from cognitive neuroscience that humans readily find patterns and impart agency to them, well documented in the new book SuperSense (HarperOne, 2009) by University of Bristol psychologist Bruce Hood. Examples: children believe that the sun can think and follows them around; because of such beliefs, they often add smiley faces on sketched suns. Adults typically refuse to wear a mass murderer’s sweater, believing that “evil” is a supernatural force that imparts its negative agency to the wearer (and, alternatively, that donning Mr. Rogers’s cardigan will make you a better person). A third of transplant patients believe that the donor’s personality is transplanted with the organ. Genital-shaped foods (bananas, oysters) are often believed to enhance sexual potency. Subjects watching geometric shapes with eye spots interacting on a computer screen conclude that they represent agents with moral intentions.
“Many highly educated and intelligent individuals experience a powerful sense that there are patterns, forces, energies and entities operating in the world,” Hood explains. “More important, such experiences are not substantiated by a body of reliable evidence, which is why they are supernatural and unscientific. The inclination or sense that they may be real is our supersense.”
We are natural-born supernaturalists.

 

[Brian2]

The "design" we observe is called order. It is how the material of the universe behaves according to the natural laws. Nothiong suggests that how matter behaves needs any supernatural causes. You creationists surely offer no evidence, so why would we agree with your religious beliefs?

What evidence do you have of gods, a supernatural, some necessity of anything that isn't natural? If you can't offer anything then we have no choice but to reject your magic.

So allyou have is what TagliatelliMonster calls "mere ignorant negative "evidence" against some different idea",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, from the post you are quoting

• #1,091

And with that you want people to believe that order is a natural state, as opposed to chaos.....................that a thousand monkeys bashing away at typewriters are likely to produce a masterpiece given enough time, or more monkeys. But no, not even that that this order existed at the start and did not need any input to produce.

 

[F1fan]

So allyou have is what TagliatelliMonster calls "mere ignorant negative "evidence" against some different idea",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, from the post you are quoting

• #1,091

And with that you want people to believe that order is a natural state, as opposed to chaos.....................that a thousand monkeys bashing away at typewriters are likely to produce a masterpiece given enough time, or more monkeys. But no, not even that that this order existed at the start and did not need any input to produce.

You don't understand science.

And you have no evidence of a supernatural existing. All that we do have to make conclusions is nature.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A mighty oak tree is designed to have small acorns on it instead of the size of pumpkins or watermelons
There is No design for a 'watermelon tree' or a 'pumpkin tree' because it would Not be safe to sit under huge melons or pumpkins over head

You need to learn what is and what is not evidence. Also some biology would not hurt either.