How do you reconcile the problem of evil?

[Riverwolf]

I believe that God is cleaning up a mess that He did not create. (I subscribe to the original meaning of the word create - which means organize/transform what eternally exists)

Can't he just snap his fingers and do it in an instant?

 

[Koldo]

I believe that God is cleaning up a mess that He did not create. (I subscribe to the original meaning of the word create - which means organize/transform what eternally exists)

Can't he just snap his fingers and do it in an instant?

So much for omnipotence, right?

 

[idea]

Can't he just snap his fingers and do it in an instant?

Relative to eternity, our life is but an instant... and remember, life's a journey, not a destination.

 

[idea]

So much for omnipotence, right?

What constitutes someone who has more power and influence - someone who is a control freak with no patience ... or someone with infinite patience, who grants freedom to choose and find one's own way?

 

[gilligan8914]

Only if humans are the only thing capable of evil.

What else is capable of evil?

 

[fallingblood]

It is logically impossible for a god who loves everyone and can do anything to exist in the presence of mass suffering and/or mass calamities. So I ask believers how they reconcile the problem of evil?

There are only two ways:
1) You have a different construct of god - one in which he either is incapable of preventing mass suffering/mass calamities or doesn't love us enough to want to do anything about it.

2) You don't think about it. (e.g. Say little Johnny says A plus B is equal to C and also says C minus B is not equal to A, but he doesn't do the algebra to see that both those equations can't be true).

I've read through many of the replies, but want to put my take on this. I think the two ways given are not the only two ways. The first way itself is actually quite limited, and does not actually reflect much of modern theology.

The classical view of God, which is the one I assume you are talking about (an all loving and all powerful God) really has died out in many theological views. It is not possible to have both an all loving God and an all powerful God while there is the issue of evil. This is a problem that has been recognized for quite some time. In reaction to this problem, there have been a variety of solutions posed.

One such solution, which is popular in process theology, and a variety of forms of liberation theology (as well as many other major forms of theology) is to view God as self-limiting. In order for God to act interact with humans, God has to limit God's self. In order for humans to be humans, God has to limit God's self. Thus, evil is able to occur in the world not because God doesn't care, but because of human actions, which are allowed as God allows humans to be humans.

Terence Freitheim has written a great deal on this subject from a Christian perspective, while Harold Kushner has written on it from a Jewish perspective.

 

[Koldo]

Relative to eternity, our life is but an instant... and remember, life's a journey, not a destination.

Regardless, omnipotence allows for it to be done in an instant according to anyone's perception.

What constitutes someone who has more power and influence - someone who is a control freak with no patience ... or someone with infinite patience, who grants freedom to choose and find one's own way?

None of these have anything to do with omnipotence.

 

[Penumbra]

What else is capable of evil?

Well, chimpanzees have been known to rip testicles off.

Gotta watch out for that.

 

[Skwim]

Relative to eternity, our life is but an instant... and remember, life's a journey, not a destination.

So what? Can't he just snap his fingers and do it in an instant?

What else is capable of evil?

In at least one version of the Bible some animals are said to be evil.

Ezekiel 14:15-17 World English Bible (WEB)
15 If I cause evil animals to pass through the land, and they ravage it, and it is made desolate, so that no man may pass through because of the animals; 16 though these three men were in it, as I live, says the Lord Yahweh, they should deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only should be delivered, but the land should be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword on that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off from it man and animal;

​

 

[Riverwolf]

Relative to eternity, our life is but an instant... and remember, life's a journey, not a destination.

That doesn't answer the question. Either he can or he can't.

If he can but doesn't because "life is a journey", fine, that's your theology; it just happens to be a theology I disagree with.

 

[Koldo]

I've read through many of the replies, but want to put my take on this. I think the two ways given are not the only two ways. The first way itself is actually quite limited, and does not actually reflect much of modern theology.

The classical view of God, which is the one I assume you are talking about (an all loving and all powerful God) really has died out in many theological views. It is not possible to have both an all loving God and an all powerful God while there is the issue of evil. This is a problem that has been recognized for quite some time. In reaction to this problem, there have been a variety of solutions posed.

One such solution, which is popular in process theology, and a variety of forms of liberation theology (as well as many other major forms of theology) is to view God as self-limiting. In order for God to act interact with humans, God has to limit God's self. In order for humans to be humans, God has to limit God's self. Thus, evil is able to occur in the world not because God doesn't care, but because of human actions, which are allowed as God allows humans to be humans.

Terence Freitheim has written a great deal on this subject from a Christian perspective, while Harold Kushner has written on it from a Jewish perspective.

Self-limiting? As in omnipotent and imposing a limit on himself?

Given that suffering is not equal among all humans, then it would still mean there is currently more suffering in this world than necessary for humans to be humans.

 

[gilligan8914]

Evil, like everything else is in the mind of the beholder.

 

[adi2d]

From the Baha'i scriptures:


"Chapter 74.

"THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Jees. If you posted that way to be annoying,congrats. It was. Unreadable so I miss your point if you had one

 

[idea]

That doesn't answer the question. Either he can or he can't.

If he can but doesn't because "life is a journey", fine, that's your theology; it just happens to be a theology I disagree with.

The most noble traits that we wish to develop come from within - personal achievement, character, personality, the ability to love, free will - these have to be self-generated or they do not exist. God has taken on the role of a teacher or guide for those eternal spirits who wish to follow a path of love and enlightenment. God opens up possibilities for progression that would be impossible without His help, but He does not force His help onto anyone. It is our choice of what path to follow. Anything that would turn us into robots, or would take away the dignity of choosing one's own way, would make impossible the perfection of any self-actualized traits.

There are no "free-meal" tickets when it comes to true self-worth, dignity, honor, respect, love, achievement... The value of it comes from the character building process in attaining it. There is no honor in anything that is handed to you on a silver platter. No pain, no gain. The more we overcome, the more honor and self-worth we have...

 

[Riverwolf]

The most noble traits that we wish to develop come from within - personal achievement, character, personality, the ability to love, free will - these have to be self-generated or they do not exist. God has taken on the role of a teacher or guide for those eternal spirits who wish to follow a path of love and enlightenment. God opens up possibilities for progression that would be impossible without His help, but He does not force His help onto anyone. It is our choice of what path to follow. Anything that would turn us into robots, or would take away the dignity of choosing one's own way, would make impossible the perfection of any self-actualized traits.

There are no "free-meal" tickets when it comes to true self-worth, dignity, honor, respect, love, achievement... The value of it comes from the character building process in attaining it. There is no honor in anything that is handed to you on a silver platter. No pain, no gain. The more we overcome, the more honor and self-worth we have...

IOW, he can, but doesn't.

 

[Willamena]

The most noble traits that we wish to develop come from within - personal achievement, character, personality, the ability to love, free will - these have to be self-generated or they do not exist...

What is noble about free will? It's not self-generated, it's god-given.

 

[Pegg]

It is logically impossible for a god who loves everyone and can do anything to exist in the presence of mass suffering and/or mass calamities. So I ask believers how they reconcile the problem of evil?

There are only two ways:
1) You have a different construct of god - one in which he either is incapable of preventing mass suffering/mass calamities or doesn't love us enough to want to do anything about it.

2) You don't think about it. (e.g. Say little Johnny says A plus B is equal to C and also says C minus B is not equal to A, but he doesn't do the algebra to see that both those equations can't be true).

a 3rd option would be good.... i think it would state this:

3. Recognize that God views all of us as his children and for that reason he does not destroy those doing bad because he prefers that they change their ways. However, he has set a time limit on his patience and he will put an end to it when the time is right.


with that view, we recognize that there is good reason for God to have allowed the wicked to continue, and he will not allow them to continue indefinitely

 

[idea]

What is noble about free will? It's not self-generated, it's god-given.

With God there are more choices available, bur our ability to choose comes from our eternal nature. Only an eternal being with no beginning has free will. (If there were a beginning, then all of the effects we see could be traced back to the original cause, or original creation - only eternal entities with no original cause/beginning - can logically have free will.)

 

[The Sum of Awe]

It is logically impossible for a god who loves everyone and can do anything to exist in the presence of mass suffering and/or mass calamities. So I ask believers how they reconcile the problem of evil?

There are only two ways:
1) You have a different construct of god - one in which he either is incapable of preventing mass suffering/mass calamities or doesn't love us enough to want to do anything about it.

2) You don't think about it. (e.g. Say little Johnny says A plus B is equal to C and also says C minus B is not equal to A, but he doesn't do the algebra to see that both those equations can't be true).

By accepting the fact that God invents the way things go, though it is orderly not chaotic, and it is us to decide if a fate is good or evil.

 

[idea]

IOW, he can, but doesn't.

iow he can't - it's a logical impossibility. "all powerful" only applies within the realm of logically possible.

Can God make a rock sooo big that He cannot move it? or microwave a burrito soooo hot that even He cannot eat it? Can you make a square circle?

Either it's a square, or it is a circle - it cannot be both at the same time.... either honorable self-generated attributes exist and define who we are... or we are robots, it cannot be both at the same time.

Are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma? "Is it commanded by God because it is good, or is it good because it is commanded by God?" I believe in #1 - it is commanded by God because it is good - iow, good and evil are natural truths which exist independently of God. God can teach us how to gain self-respect through hard work and morality, but He did not invent the idea of honor / achievement / respect etc.