How do you reconcile the problem of evil?

[Philomath]

When people say "evil exists only in the mind" I think it is complete nonsense. It's easy to say things like this when your not experiencing evil on a daily basis.Try telling this to people who see evil everyday and who suffer everyday. How is this an answer to someone living in a third world country "No, the evil that your experiencing is really only a product of your mind. It's really all just based on your perception your not really suffering" Yeah right.

 

[Koldo]

The most noble traits that we wish to develop come from within - personal achievement, character, personality, the ability to love, free will - these have to be self-generated or they do not exist. God has taken on the role of a teacher or guide for those eternal spirits who wish to follow a path of love and enlightenment. God opens up possibilities for progression that would be impossible without His help, but He does not force His help onto anyone. It is our choice of what path to follow. Anything that would turn us into robots, or would take away the dignity of choosing one's own way, would make impossible the perfection of any self-actualized traits.

There are no "free-meal" tickets when it comes to true self-worth, dignity, honor, respect, love, achievement... The value of it comes from the character building process in attaining it. There is no honor in anything that is handed to you on a silver platter. No pain, no gain. The more we overcome, the more honor and self-worth we have...

You have yet to establish why suffering is necessary to achieve any of these. Merely saying so doesn't make it so.

 

[Koldo]

By accepting the fact that God invents the way things go, though it is orderly not chaotic, and it is us to decide if a fate is good or evil.

Decide? Do you decide how you perceive good and evil?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Relegating parts of your problem into non-existence is never a solution to your problem.

Which of course in no way refutes or even begins to contradict what I posted!

So the statements stand.


Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Unreadable so I miss your point if you had one

Your loss.

 

[fallingblood]

Self-limiting? As in omnipotent and imposing a limit on himself?

Given that suffering is not equal among all humans, then it would still mean there is currently more suffering in this world than necessary for humans to be humans.

That really isn't a logical argument though. How much suffering does one need to be human? And did I say that suffering was necessary for a person to be human? More so, would everyone require the same amount of suffering? After all, we are all different. So how can it actually be known whether or not there is more suffering in the world then necessary for humans to be humans? Really though, it completely misses what I said.

The point I was making is that God limited Godself in order to allow humans to be humans. Instead of working out every problem, and making everything perfect, God allows humans to act as humans will. That means that there will be evil, and there will be suffering as that is something humans do do. However, the suffering and evil fails to compare to the joy and good that is done.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Decide? Do you decide how you perceive good and evil?

Some things we instinctively regard something as bad (i.e. illness and disease, death, phobias, etc) Other things we consciously decide it as bad (i.e. divorce, breaking expensive merchandise, losing something, etc)

 

[Riverwolf]

iow he can't - it's a logical impossibility. "all powerful" only applies within the realm of logically possible.

Can God make a rock sooo big that He cannot move it? or microwave a burrito soooo hot that even He cannot eat it? Can you make a square circle?

Either it's a square, or it is a circle - it cannot be both at the same time.... either honorable self-generated attributes exist and define who we are... or we are robots, it cannot be both at the same time.

Are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma? "Is it commanded by God because it is good, or is it good because it is commanded by God?" I believe in #1 - it is commanded by God because it is good - iow, good and evil are natural truths which exist independently of God. God can teach us how to gain self-respect through hard work and morality, but He did not invent the idea of honor / achievement / respect etc.

Ah, gotcha.

I disagree, but I can see that. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Koldo]

That really isn't a logical argument though. How much suffering does one need to be human? And did I say that suffering was necessary for a person to be human? More so, would everyone require the same amount of suffering? After all, we are all different. So how can it actually be known whether or not there is more suffering in the world then necessary for humans to be humans? Really though, it completely misses what I said.

The point I was making is that God limited Godself in order to allow humans to be humans. Instead of working out every problem, and making everything perfect, God allows humans to act as humans will. That means that there will be evil, and there will be suffering as that is something humans do do. However, the suffering and evil fails to compare to the joy and good that is done.

Must humans be allowed to suffer to be humans?
I don't comprehend your stance on this.

 

[Koldo]

Some things we instinctively regard something as bad (i.e. illness and disease, death, phobias, etc) Other things we consciously decide it as bad (i.e. divorce, breaking expensive merchandise, losing something, etc)

We are not talking about good and bad though, but rather good and evil.

Can you, at this moment, decide that divorce is evil, and then at the next instant that it is good?

 

[fallingblood]

Must humans be allowed to suffer to be humans?
I don't comprehend your stance on this.

Humans suffer because of the actions of other humans.

The reason there is evil in the world is because God allows humans to be humans. Thus, because humans have the tendency to be both good and evil, sometimes there is suffering.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

We are not talking about good and bad though, but rather good and evil.

Can you, at this moment, decide that divorce is evil, and then at the next instant that it is good?

I believe with practice, it's possible.

 

[Koldo]

Humans suffer because of the actions of other humans.

The reason there is evil in the world is because God allows humans to be humans. Thus, because humans have the tendency to be both good and evil, sometimes there is suffering.

You didn't actually answer my question.

First of all, there is suffering that goes beyond the actions of other humans. Natural evil, for example, does not depend on being caused by other humans.

Second, and now getting back to the point of my question, it is completely possible ( logically speaking ) to allow humans have an evil tendency and, at the same time, make it so they can't experience suffering ( with a few exceptions ).

 

[Koldo]

I believe with practice, it's possible.

[youtube]ig4fUOBwsbU[/youtube]
R. Kelly - I Believe I Can Fly (Official music video) - YouTube

 

[idea]

You have yet to establish why suffering is necessary to achieve any of these. Merely saying so doesn't make it so.

see back to post #33

Simple -
some evil is there to refine us (refined in the fire etc.) ~ pride is torn down by humbling someone, materialism is put in it's proper place by taking away material goods, sexual immorality is punished with heartache fatherless children etc.... consequence for one's actions are often called evil, when consequences are really there to refine a make us into better people.


some evil is there so that we can have pity and empathy for those who are being refined.... we all have issues to overcome, no one is perfect, rather than looking down on someone who is struggling with this or that consequence, sometimes "good people" experience similar trials to "not-yet-refined" people. Walk a mile in another's shoes to know them so you can best help them - so we all experience health issues, loss of loved ones, persecution, natural disasters etc. etc. that help us have compassion on others who experience the same things. Evil is the great equalizer.

the atonement is the ultimate example of "why bad things happen to good people" - Jesus was good, and bad things happened to him, the point of it? he felt our pain, and was therefore able to have compassion and understanding of us.


some evil is there to give us appreciation for what is good.
Who appreciates good food the most? Some who has been starving, or someone who has lived in the lap of luxury their whole life? "You don't know what you've got until it's gone", "absence makes the heart grow fonder"... opposites define one another, we know what light is by comparing it to something dark, we know what good is by comparing it to something evil. Good and evil, right and wrong, left and right, up and down - these are all relative terms that do not exist without one another.

Free will - would not exist if we were not given the freedom to choose evil actions.

etc. etc.

suffering is a necessary evil... no pain, no appreciation, no refinement, no true empathy of others, no free will, no joy of overcoming, no gain.

 

[Koldo]

see back to post #33


suffering is a necessary evil... no pain, no appreciation, no refinement, no true empathy of others, no free will, no joy of overcoming, no gain.

You have presented situations where these attributes can flourish. But this doesn't mean that these situations are required for these attributes to flourish.

To make an analogy, you will learn that you shouldn't play with fire if you get all burned up. However, you don't need to get all burned up to learn that you shouldn't play with fire.

 

[Katzpur]

You have presented situations where these attributes can flourish. But this doesn't mean that these situations are required for these attributes to flourish.

To make an analogy, you will learn that you shouldn't play with fire if you get all burned up. However, you don't need to get all burned up to learn that you shouldn't play with fire.

Well, someone had to get burned before anyone could learn what the effects were of playing with fire. Sometimes we actually can learn from other people's mistakes.

 

[idea]

You have presented situations where these attributes can flourish. But this doesn't mean that these situations are required for these attributes to flourish.

To make an analogy, you will learn that you shouldn't play with fire if you get all burned up. However, you don't need to get all burned up to learn that you shouldn't play with fire.

The difference between

a.) someone telling you they love you enough to die for you.

b.) someone actually dieing for you because they love you.

The difference between a physical reality, and just a nice thought... the difference between just casually knowing someone, vs. actually going through an experience with them... the difference between watching something on a movie screen, and being there experiencing the real deal... actual experience is needed or none of it is real.

 

[Koldo]

The difference between

a.) someone telling you they love you enough to die for you.

b.) someone actually dieing for you because they love you.

The difference between a physical reality, and just a nice thought... the difference between just casually knowing someone, vs. actually going through an experience with them... the difference between watching something on a movie screen, and being there experiencing the real deal... actual experience is needed or none of it is real.

Now you are no longer focusing on the attributes in themselves, but rather on the experiences. What you are saying right now is that bad experiences are actually good, as they are sufficient to justify the existence of suffering. :sad:

 

[idav]

First of all, there is suffering that goes beyond the actions of other humans. Natural evil, for example, does not depend on being caused by other humans.

Naturally evil doesn't exist. It actually takes knowledge of good and evil to actually do evil deeds.

Second, and now getting back to the point of my question, it is completely possible ( logically speaking ) to allow humans have an evil tendency and, at the same time, make it so they can't experience suffering ( with a few exceptions ).

I'm not sure why we would want to give a person the ability to inflict suffering but not give them the ability to experience it themselves. As mentioned above, ability to be evil takes knowledge and that knowledge can always be acted on as is the case when creatures are given that sort of power.