How Do You Understand The Gospel?

[BilliardsBall]

This bus driver example is misleading. Some might think you don't have do anything to gain salvation. But in truth you do have to do something - you have to stay on the bus. And every time the bus stops to pick up other people you'll be tempted to get off to visit the attractions in the area.

So what are the attractions that can tempt a christian to get off the bus to eternal life? Sin of course! Therefore a christian who wishes to stay on the bus needs to resist the devil's temptations.

The Hebrews 10 analogy is probably better than the bus analogy in this respect. It's more like "You trusted in Jesus and are going to Heaven as surely as someone who jumped off a cliff will hit bottom, so live right!"

However, I attempt to sin little and to live right because I'm ALREADY saved, not TO be saved or to MAINTAIN my salvation.

Thanda, I don't think you would be in Heaven (nor would I) shouting "Look at me! I saved myself by my good works!" Rather we will be in Heaven shouting "Jesus saved us!"

In the same way, no one can be in Heaven shouting "I almost didn't make it. Yet I did because I overcame the temptations of sin!" Read Ephesians 2:8-9 for more.

Thanks!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why do you feel it is relevant where the righteous will go? Is heaven a more beautiful place than the earth will be?

It is actually a biblical heresy to say that Heaven will be only as glorious as this Earth is or will be...

1 Cor 2:9 - "But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."

 

[Thanda]

It is actually a biblical heresy to say that Heaven will be only as glorious as this Earth is or will be...

1 Cor 2:9 - "But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."

How does the quote you've just given prove that earth will not be as glorious as heaven? But read Revelation 21 which will show you that God will be among us. And if God is hear on the Earth will you still say that Earth will not be as glorious as heaven?

 

[Thanda]

However, I attempt to sin little and to live right because I'm ALREADY saved, not TO be saved or to MAINTAIN my salvation.

Yet Paul in the very same Hebrews ten that you quoted says:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

Paul contradicts you here as he is saying that the saints need to encourage each other to love and to do good works (i.e. not to sin). What is the point of encouraging each other to do good if we are already saved? Are you just doing God a favour by doing good? Is God somehow indebted to you so that he needs to allow you to do whatever you want and still needs to save you?

When Peter saw Jesus walking on water he asked him if he could also walk with him. Jesus gave him the go ahead. But when he saw the mighty waves he became afraid and stopped focusing on the Saviour. At that moment he began to drown. Christ rescued him and asked, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst though doubt".

The work of every Christian who wishes to inherit eternal life is keep their eyes fixed on the Saviour. There is a lovely scripture about this in D&C 88:67:

And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.​

Jesus is the light and when we are focused on him our whole bodies are filled with light and there is no darkness (or sin) in us. Therefore if you are in the habit of sinning "a little" then it is certain that your whole body is not filled with light and there is still some darkness in you. And if your whole body is not filled with light then it can only be because you have stopped focusing on the Saviour. Remember the Saviour said his disciples shall be known by their love. And Paul said love thinketh no evil. And if you don't think any evil then you cannot do any evil: not even "a little".

And our sins are our fault. God has all power to deliver us from the devil. But he will not deliver us against our will. If we want to sin it is our choice and he will not stop us.

 

[Clear]

Clear asked (post #57) : “…Is avoidance from “going to hell” the entire definition of being “saved” in your Christian theory or does being “saved” mean anything else inside your religious Theory? For example, the second phrase in JayJayDees question related to "what happens to those who are saved?". Can you explain more fully your theory of what happens to those who become “saved” in your Christian theory?

Billiardsball explained (post #60) : “…. One is saved from darkness and ignorance to walk in the light of Christ and to begin to experience some of the fruits of God's Kingdom and eternal life now, in this world. “


Thank you Billiardsball for the added information. However, now, can you explain what the added information means. If being “saved” means that a saved Christian will #1 “walk in the light of Christ” and #2, begins to “experience some of the fruits of God’s Kingdom and eternal life now” what do these two things mean?

1) "Walking in the light of Christ" - If being “saved” means that one “walks in the light of Christ”, what does it mean to “walk in the light of Christ”? Are you speaking of increase in mere confidence or speaking of those who think they are “now going to heaven” or some other strong belief, or are you describing something else in this theory?

2) Experiencing Fruits of God's Kingdom" - If the second part of being saved in your theory is that one “begins” to experience fruits of Gods’ Kingdom, what fruits of his Kingdom and eternal life are you describing?

Thank you for explaining your theory further

Clear
ακδρτζω

 

[JayJayDee]

I'm a Messianic Jew.

Thanks. It helps to know the beliefs of the one you are conversing with. Is there a reason you do not identify your faith position?

I never said God is a fiendish torturer. In Luke 16, the one in torment carries on a rational conversation with Abraham. He isn't screaming and there are no devils with pitchforks.

Luke 16 is a parable, not a factual account.

Luke 16:19-31......“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” (NASB)

Read the words carefully and see how it cannot be a literal account. What crime did the rich man commit? All it says is that he was rich and dressed well, happy with his life. The beggar on the other hand, had no good things to enjoy...he just sat at the gate, suffering from malnutrition waiting for a few crumbs from the rich man's table. One was not said to be wicked or the other righteous.

Both of the characters in this parable "died". Being "dead" or "alive" can be used metaphorically in the Bible to describe their a change in a person's spiritual condition.

The rich man pictures the Pharisees and the beggar pictures the ones whom the spiritual shepherds neglected to feed. These became the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent. They were spiritually lost and malnourished. When Jesus came, both experienced a change in their status. The Pharisees were condemned to "Gehenna" (a place that formJews symbolised eternal death...not eternal torment) for their neglect and the "beggars" came into the favored position (Abraham's bosom) Father Abraham pictures God.

Then a conversation is heard between heaven and hell supposedly. Do you think these are within speaking distance to each other? Lazarus was asked to dip his finger in water to quench their thirst in the incredible heat.....can that be literal?

There is also a "great chasm" that is fixed between the two states in which the rich man and Lazarus now find themselves.....meaning that never the twain shall meet.

The "torment" that the Pharisees received was the stinging denunciation from God's son. They offer excuses but Jesus says if they failed to obey the law and the Prophets, (as Israel repeatedly did) they would not be persuaded by someone who rose from the dead.

I cringe when people take this parable literally.

 

[JayJayDee]

I understand the JW stance on Hell as a reaction to the emotions prompted by Hell, but it is not a correct hermeneutical interpretation regarding the facts of Hell as presented in the scriptures.

We cannot rely on "hermeneutical interpretation" because this is Christendom's version of events. None of that gels with the entirety of scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself, nor does it present the Father as a fiend who tortures anyone for any reason. The highest penalty a person could pay for any sin under the law was death. There was no incarceration attached to any punishment and no one was subjected to physical torture as a punishment for a crime.

There are numerous scriptures like the ones you presented as written by authors in the Bible. Inerrant? Yes. Presenting from their point of view on Earth that the dead don't speak to us any longer that we can see? Yes. Another biblical reason to neither pray to saints nor attempt communication with the dead.

However, there are also clear scriptures regarding Hell. The two thrown into the Lake of Fire are thrown in alive before the millennium. The ones swallowed up in Korah's rebellion astonished the people present who say them go under and into the Earth while alive.

Do you know the identity of the false prophet and the wild beast who are "still alive" when they are thrown into the lake of fire? (Rev 19:20) So you know what it means to be "still alive" when this occurs? It isn't what you think.

I think one of the logical problems with the doctrine of annihilation is that it limits God's justice.

On the contrary..."the wages of sin is death" not torture. Adam was told that he would die and return to the dust....no hell of eternal torment was ever mentioned. The death penalty was the highest penalty under God's law. Why do humans expect God's justice to mean pain and suffering? God hates that as much as we do! (Jer 7:30, 31)

People like Stalin and Mao Tse Tung had tens of millions killed. So the retribution is that they resurrect to see they miss paradise on Earth before they die again? How do you account for Jesus's statements about being beaten with many or fewer stripes?

We can place justice in God's capable hands....do you think he is capable of injustice? He is their judge, not us.

It makes sense to me that Hell is worse for some, easier for others.

Death is death for all......the resurrection is broken up into a "first resurrection" for those chosen to rule with Christ (Rev 20:6) and a general resurrection of mankind, which includes "both the righteous and the unrighteous" ones who are not part of that first arrangement. (John 5:28, 29)

When you lose Christendom's idea that ALL Christians must go to heaven...everything makes sense.
If God had wanted humans in heaven, he would have put us there in the first place, like he did the Angels.

The earth was designed to be man's permanent home, free from suffering and death. Thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it will be. (Rev 21:1-5)

 

[JFish123]

We cannot rely on "hermeneutical interpretation" because this is Christendom's version of events. None of that gels with the entirety of scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself, nor does it present the Father as a fiend who tortures anyone for any reason. The highest penalty a person could pay for any sin under the law was death. There was no incarceration attached to any punishment and no one was subjected to physical torture as a punishment for a crime.


Do you know the identity of the false prophet and the wild beast who are "still alive" when they are thrown into the lake of fire? (Rev 19:20) So you know what it means to be "still alive" when this occurs? It isn't what you think.



On the contrary..."the wages of sin is death" not torture. Adam was told that he would die and return to the dust....no hell of eternal torment was ever mentioned. The death penalty was the highest penalty under God's law. Why do humans expect God's justice to mean pain and suffering? God hates that as much as we do! (Jer 7:30, 31)



We can place justice in God's capable hands....do you think he is capable of injustice? He is their judge, not us.



Death is death for all......the resurrection is broken up into a "first resurrection" for those chosen to rule with Christ (Rev 20:6) and a general resurrection of mankind, which includes "both the righteous and the unrighteous" ones who are not part of that first arrangement. (John 5:28, 29)

When you lose Christendom's idea that ALL Christians must go to heaven...everything makes sense.
If God had wanted humans in heaven, he would have put us there in the first place, like he did the Angels.

The earth was designed to be man's permanent home, free from suffering and death. Thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it will be. (Rev 21:1-5)

"Paradise earth" is a key phrase in Watchtower literature, appearing over 1,000 times on the Watchtower CD Library. However, the term never appears in the Bible. Neither is resurrection onto earth specifically discussed. And The word paradise is used only four times in the New World Translation of the Bible and each passage discussing a location refers to heaven. (Song of Solomon 4:13; Luke 23:39-43; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7; Revelation 2:5-7)

 

[JayJayDee]

"Paradise earth" is a key phrase in Watchtower literature, appearing over 1,000 times on the Watchtower CD Library. However, the term never appears in the Bible. Neither is resurrection onto earth specifically discussed. And The word paradise is used only four times in the New World Translation of the Bible and each passage discussing a location refers to heaven. (Song of Solomon 4:13; Luke 23:39-43; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7; Revelation 2:5-7)

I love it when you post scripture. Who is teaching you this stuff?

Let's take those scriptures one at a time.....

Song of Solomon 4:13 “Your shoots are an orchard of pomegranates With choice fruits, henna with nard plants, (NASB)

Song of Solomon 4:13 Your limbs are an orchard of pomegranateswith all kinds of luscious fruit,henna, and spices: (CEB)

Song of Solomon 4:13 Your limbs are an orchard of pomegranates with all kinds of luscious fruit,henna, and spices:

Song of Solomon 4:13 Your shoots are a paradise* of pomegranates With the choicest fruits, with henna along with spikenard plants, (NWT) * the footnote reads "garden". Why? Because the word "paradise" means a park or garden. This scripture isn't talking about heaven.

"The three terms (Hebrew par·desʹ, Persian pairidaeza, and Greek pa·raʹdei·sos)....all convey the basic idea of a beautiful park or parklike garden. The first such park was that made by man’s Creator, Jehovah God, in Eden. (Ge 2:8, 9, 15)

The Greek Septuagint appropriately uses the term pa·raʹdei·sos with reference to that garden.....Because of sin, Adam lost his right to live in that paradise and his opportunity to gain the right to everlasting life, which right was represented in the fruit of a divinely designated tree in the center of the garden. The garden of Eden may have been enclosed in some way, since it was necessary to place angelic guards only at the east side thereof to prevent human entrance.—Ge 3:22-24."

Paradise — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Luke 23 is Jesus' words to the evildoer hung alongside him at Calvery.....

Luke 23:42-43..."And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Or as the NWT renders it. "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

There was no comma in Greek, so placing the comma after "you" instead of "today" changes the whole structure of the sentence grammatically. Which agrees with the rest of the Bible?
Jesus was not resurrected until three days later...and he did not ascend to heaven for another 40 days...so where does that leave the evildoer? In the grave awaiting the promised resurrection when the earth is restored to paradise conditions. (John 5:28, 29; Rev 21:1-5)
Again not talking about heaven.

 

[psychoslice]

As a Christian I only really understood the gospel as the way I was told to read the gospel, I never really thought for myself, but when I did, I realized that it was all wrong, now I have my own way of reading the gospel, and you know something, I am bloody happy for the first time.

 

[JayJayDee]

2 Cor 12:1-7 is Paul relating a vision that a man had 14 years ago. Even he did not know what "paradise" the man had seen. He may have been relating a personal experience....? Do you know what the "third heaven" is? It is a strange passage.

Revelation 2:5-7...."Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ "

Read this again.....what paradise is Jesus talking about? Where was the original "tree of life"? It was in the garden of Eden. (Gen 2:9)

There are "a new heavens and a new earth" according to Peter where "righteousness is to dwell" (2 Pet 3:13)

Revelation describes the rulership of the "new Jerusalem" as descending from heaven to rule "mankind". (Rev 21-1-5)

God designed humans to live forever on earth. Going to heaven was not even in the equation until Adam sinned. Only then was there a need for a savior and a kingdom...and only then were he and his wife kicked out of paradise, never to access "the tree of life" again. Why? Because eating from this tree would have given them the ability to "live forever" right here on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)

All Christians are NOT going to heaven. The Bible does not say this. It is by invitation only and most of us are not invited....in fact I could possibly say that NONE of us are invited. No one went to heaven before Jesus and only the chosen ones with "the heavenly calling" will join him there as "kings and priests. (Rev 20:6; Heb 3:1)

The finite ranks of Christ's "joint-heirs" are pretty much filled at this point in time. Beginning with the apostles and all the faithful ones who stood up for the truth down through history, and up to the last days.....the gathering is complete.
The "great crowd" is unnumbered and any amount of people may still swell those ranks up until the end comes. That is why we keep on preaching. (Matt 24:14)

 

[psychoslice]

You poor JW's.

 

[JayJayDee]

As a Christian I only really understood the gospel as the way I was told to read the gospel, I never really thought for myself, but when I did, I realized that it was all wrong, now I have my own way of reading the gospel, and you know something, I am bloody happy for the first time.

If it's all about your personal happiness and not about understanding why God sent Jesus to rescue us from this poor excuse for a life....then "eat, drink and be merry".....what more can be said? God isn't going to chase anyone and flog them with the Bible...he is just going to offer the truth to any who might like to accept it. No force, no coercion....no heaven or hell...just his simple rescue plan. Take it or leave it.

 

[psychoslice]

If it's all about your personal happiness and not about understanding why God sent Jesus to rescue us from this poor excuse for a life....then "eat, drink and be merry".....what more can be said? God isn't going to chase anyone and flog them with the Bible...he is just going to offer the truth to any who might like to accept it. No force, no coercion....no heaven or hell...just his simple rescue plan. Take it or leave it.

But that is how you see it, its from your own eyes, nothing to do with god, you are conditioned to believe in what you believe, and therefore you are a JW, in any other circumstance, you would be another belief system, and you know that don't you ?.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yet Paul in the very same Hebrews ten that you quoted says:

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

Paul contradicts you here as he is saying that the saints need to encourage each other to love and to do good works (i.e. not to sin). What is the point of encouraging each other to do good if we are already saved? Are you just doing God a favour by doing good? Is God somehow indebted to you so that he needs to allow you to do whatever you want and still needs to save you?

When Peter saw Jesus walking on water he asked him if he could also walk with him. Jesus gave him the go ahead. But when he saw the mighty waves he became afraid and stopped focusing on the Saviour. At that moment he began to drown. Christ rescued him and asked, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst though doubt".

The work of every Christian who wishes to inherit eternal life is keep their eyes fixed on the Saviour. There is a lovely scripture about this in D&C 88:67:

And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.​

Jesus is the light and when we are focused on him our whole bodies are filled with light and there is no darkness (or sin) in us. Therefore if you are in the habit of sinning "a little" then it is certain that your whole body is not filled with light and there is still some darkness in you. And if your whole body is not filled with light then it can only be because you have stopped focusing on the Saviour. Remember the Saviour said his disciples shall be known by their love. And Paul said love thinketh no evil. And if you don't think any evil then you cannot do any evil: not even "a little".

And our sins are our fault. God has all power to deliver us from the devil. But he will not deliver us against our will. If we want to sin it is our choice and he will not stop us.

You are assuming this passage has to do with Christians. The "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified..." could also be referring to Jewish men and their circumcision covenant, and their rejection of Jesus. Note the context is the Law of Moses. Regardless, most orthodox Christians (orthodox regarding doctrine) believe in assurance and interpret Hebrews 10 overall as discussing irrevocable salvation rather than reject-able salvation. Recall that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Romans 8) and that salvation is a gift of God (Romans 6).

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How does the quote you've just given prove that earth will not be as glorious as heaven? But read Revelation 21 which will show you that God will be among us. And if God is hear on the Earth will you still say that Earth will not be as glorious as heaven?

Perhaps it would be better to say that Heaven will come down to meet Earth, and that both will be glorious. God the Father will be inside His heavenly temple, on the Earth. Thanks!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Clear asked (post #57) : “…Is avoidance from “going to hell” the entire definition of being “saved” in your Christian theory or does being “saved” mean anything else inside your religious Theory? For example, the second phrase in JayJayDees question related to "what happens to those who are saved?". Can you explain more fully your theory of what happens to those who become “saved” in your Christian theory?

Billiardsball explained (post #60) : “…. One is saved from darkness and ignorance to walk in the light of Christ and to begin to experience some of the fruits of God's Kingdom and eternal life now, in this world. “


Thank you Billiardsball for the added information. However, now, can you explain what the added information means. If being “saved” means that a saved Christian will #1 “walk in the light of Christ” and #2, begins to “experience some of the fruits of God’s Kingdom and eternal life now” what do these two things mean?

1) "Walking in the light of Christ" - If being “saved” means that one “walks in the light of Christ”, what does it mean to “walk in the light of Christ”? Are you speaking of increase in mere confidence or speaking of those who think they are “now going to heaven” or some other strong belief, or are you describing something else in this theory?

2) Experiencing Fruits of God's Kingdom" - If the second part of being saved in your theory is that one “begins” to experience fruits of Gods’ Kingdom, what fruits of his Kingdom and eternal life are you describing?

Thank you for explaining your theory further

Clear
ακδρτζω

Born again Christians receive the Holy Spirit. God promises that there will be heightened knowledge for believers, even if it comes in the form of special chastisement for sinning!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Thanks. It helps to know the beliefs of the one you are conversing with. Is there a reason you do not identify your faith position?



Luke 16 is a parable, not a factual account.

Luke 16:19-31......“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” (NASB)

Read the words carefully and see how it cannot be a literal account. What crime did the rich man commit? All it says is that he was rich and dressed well, happy with his life. The beggar on the other hand, had no good things to enjoy...he just sat at the gate, suffering from malnutrition waiting for a few crumbs from the rich man's table. One was not said to be wicked or the other righteous.

Both of the characters in this parable "died". Being "dead" or "alive" can be used metaphorically in the Bible to describe their a change in a person's spiritual condition.

The rich man pictures the Pharisees and the beggar pictures the ones whom the spiritual shepherds neglected to feed. These became the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" to whom Jesus was sent. They were spiritually lost and malnourished. When Jesus came, both experienced a change in their status. The Pharisees were condemned to "Gehenna" (a place that formJews symbolised eternal death...not eternal torment) for their neglect and the "beggars" came into the favored position (Abraham's bosom) Father Abraham pictures God.

Then a conversation is heard between heaven and hell supposedly. Do you think these are within speaking distance to each other? Lazarus was asked to dip his finger in water to quench their thirst in the incredible heat.....can that be literal?

There is also a "great chasm" that is fixed between the two states in which the rich man and Lazarus now find themselves.....meaning that never the twain shall meet.

The "torment" that the Pharisees received was the stinging denunciation from God's son. They offer excuses but Jesus says if they failed to obey the law and the Prophets, (as Israel repeatedly did) they would not be persuaded by someone who rose from the dead.

I cringe when people take this parable literally.

All gospel parables omit names. Here, Lazarus is named. This isn't Hell but "the grave". In the grave, Abraham (also named) is speaking and says there is a chasm preventing the wicked dead from joining the righteous dead.

Somehow you missed what the rich man did that was sin. He let the beggar starve to death at his gates while he feasted sumptuously.

PS. It is of growing concern to me to hear a Jehovah's Witness read "story" rather than "fundamental truth of Jehovah's Word." Luke 16 is God's revealed, inerrant Word.

 

[BilliardsBall]

As a Christian I only really understood the gospel as the way I was told to read the gospel, I never really thought for myself, but when I did, I realized that it was all wrong, now I have my own way of reading the gospel, and you know something, I am bloody happy for the first time.

I'd like to hear more. What did you formally believe without "thinking" and what do you believe now about the gospel?

 

[Thanda]

Perhaps it would be better to say that Heaven will come down to meet Earth, and that both will be glorious. God the Father will be inside His heavenly temple, on the Earth. Thanks!

So then you agree it is not really very important whether we will go to heaven or whether we will be here on Earth which will be just as glorious.