how does a christian understand the bible?

[waitasec]

EDIT: I took this thread of coarse But I must make one more comment: You used the term limit of logic, it is illogical that we are here.

no worries...

interesting. i'm gonna say our limited logic is a fraction (here we go with mathematical terms ) of the bigger picture...

 

[Archer]

no worries...

interesting. i'm gonna say our limited logic is a fraction (here we go with mathematical terms ) of the bigger picture...

Agreed concerning God and Science. As I said I am closer to Agnostic than most Christians.

 

[waitasec]

Agreed concerning God and Science. As I said I am closer to Agnostic than most Christians.

you mean i was preaching to the choir this entire time!!!


i appreciate your input. i got a lot out of it, thank you....
:rainbow:

 

[Archer]

you mean i was preaching to the choir this entire time!!!


i appreciate your input. i got a lot out of it, thank you....
:rainbow:

No problem. There is an undeserved stigma placed on many Christians. Many of us believe that science and God are 100% compatible. As it relates to the topic of this thread we will say the Bible is understood as not only as a Holy Book with rules but is also seen as a life philosophy. Many people tend to see the radicals and nut cases as that is what is publicized but that is not real Christianity. We dont stone our children (though at times I have wanted to); we do not love in the old books of the Bible either. We live in this world and are part of it. We are not to be of this world though which means no matter the changes in the world we must not adopt things that are counter to the Bible.

The truth is you here very little out of Bible believing Christians that have reached a state of contentment with themselves, God and the world at large. Many things are in the Bible that are as true today as ever and many are even compatible with science. We just believe in the cause which is God.

 

[waitasec]

No problem. There is an undeserved stigma placed on many Christians. Many of us believe that science and God are 100% compatible. As it relates to the topic of this thread we will say the Bible is understood as not only as a Holy Book with rules but is also seen as a life philosophy. Many people tend to see the radicals and nut cases as that is what is publicized but that is not real Christianity. We dont stone our children (though at times I have wanted to); we do not love in the old books of the Bible either. We live in this world and are part of it. We are not to be of this world though which means no matter the changes in the world we must not adopt things that are counter to the Bible.

The truth is you here very little out of Bible believing Christians that have reached a state of contentment with themselves, God and the world at large. Many things are in the Bible that are as true today as ever and many are even compatible with science. We just believe in the cause which is God.

did you ever see the debate between christopher hitchens and tony blair?
it's pretty long...but i think you'll enjoy it...the actual debate starts at about 5 min into it.
[youtube]4AAAEUGePUw[/youtube]
YouTube - Debate - Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens 2 of 8

 

[Archer]

did you ever see the debate between christopher hitchens and tony blair?
it's pretty long...but i think you'll enjoy it...the actual debate starts at about 5 min into it.
[youtube]4AAAEUGePUw[/youtube]
YouTube - Debate - Tony Blair vs. Christopher Hitchens 2 of 8

I will watch the rest later. Christianity has done itself no favors and the same is true of every religion or non religion.

The stigma I mentioned earlier is hard to shake but the fact is we are all human and made of the same stuff. Many evils have been done in the name of man pretending they were Gods people just as much has been done for other reasons. Greed, power and racism. Now the funny thing is when you take the titles away from the so called religious leaders they are the same as all the others with a band of mindless lemmings following along.

 

[waitasec]

I will watch the rest later. Christianity has done itself no favors and the same is true of every religion or non religion.

The stigma I mentioned earlier is hard to shake but the fact is we are all human and made of the same stuff. Many evils have been done in the name of man pretending they were Gods people just as much has been done for other reasons. Greed, power and racism. Now the funny thing is when you take the titles away from the so called religious leaders they are the same as all the others with a band of mindless lemmings following along.

i couldn't agree with that sentiment any more...
which is precisely why we need to be accountable to our selves...and focus on our commonality and not what our differences are, which is what i think religious faith ultimately does; divide not unite humanity.

 

[Civil Shephard]

Jesus interpreted Moses and corrected Solomon... Jesus made clear that his interpretation of even Davids actions were more correct than the Pharisees. Man was not made for the Sabbath but the sabbath was made for man.

I think in short the bible is understood best by allowing what Jesus said be the focus and the measure of all other bible stories. Christians lose focus when they do not put the teachings of Christ first and allow those teachings to be just weight and measure.

 

[Civil Shephard]

well the OT was written by jews
jesus was a jew
the authors of the NT were jews

And I highly respect the nonliteral translation they use for there own words.

they knew the OT was composed of fables with good morals and composed as a guide

Could you be more specific when you say 'they'? Though I think I understand you... Christian/believer type folks who agree with my feelings on this issue see the bible replacing God and being used like a sledgehammer on those who won't hold up the bible and say all the present cliche's that have given good old fashioned soup kitchen Christians a bad name.

However Jesus does validate some literal points of old testament stories and figures. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being very much alive as well as a brief conversation with Moses and Elijah while not allowing Peter to build three tents placing Moses and Elijah on equal terms with Jesus. This is my Son hear ye him and 'can I get a witness?'

I suppose fables with good morals are the 'me' of civilized society but I think an eternal Kingdom presentation by the first poor spirit beats out Bullwinkles magic show. Once you have the cake you'd better eat it just not all in one setting and there really is nothing up my sleeve except my arm and thank God for deoderant. Still, some learn the hard way never to dig outhouses too close to the the well water.

 

[Archer]

This is my Son hear ye him and 'can I get a witness?'

Amen brudder.

 

[waitasec]

Could you be more specific when you say 'they'? Though I think I understand you... Christian/believer type folks who agree with my feelings on this issue see the bible replacing God and being used like a sledgehammer on those who won't hold up the bible and say all the present cliche's that have given good old fashioned soup kitchen Christians a bad name.

However Jesus does validate some literal points of old testament stories and figures. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being very much alive as well as a brief conversation with Moses and Elijah while not allowing Peter to build three tents placing Moses and Elijah on equal terms with Jesus. This is my Son hear ye him and 'can I get a witness?'

I suppose fables with good morals are the 'me' of civilized society but I think an eternal Kingdom presentation by the first poor spirit beats out Bullwinkles magic show. Once you have the cake you'd better eat it just not all in one setting and there really is nothing up my sleeve except my arm and thank God for deoderant. Still, some learn the hard way never to dig outhouses too close to the the well water.

when outhouse used "they" i believe he was referring to the jewish tradition...

my understanding of the bible is that it is used to exult us, it makes us the center of the universe. it's the furthest thing from what we truly need to incorporate in our lives, humility. this ancient tradition comes from a period of dire straights, limited knowledge of the natural world and a need to answer the unknowable. when we understand we are limited we are humbled and when we are humble we are open to endless possibilities, not so with the bible... because it claims the impossible; the unknowable is labeled and thusly limited.

 

[waitasec]

written by ancient jewish men, for ancient men.

amen

 

[Civil Shephard]

go back and read a little deeper, you might find jesus validates the whole OT and says not one word is to be discounted and the laws obeyed

when you read like a ancient hebrew you will understand the sheep herders fictional guide. it was never ment to be read literally. it has always been ment to be read allegorical.

written by ancient jewish men, for ancient men.

I try not to get hung up on the whole jot and tittle thing because according to your point of view Jesus was validating an allogory. Is it that you do not believe the Gospels to be valid and also you do not believe the OT to be anything but allogorical myths written by ancient men for ancient men?

Well... the words recorded as having been spoken by Jesus to his disciples shows me that ancient men were not that different from you or I. After all... rain and sun still falls and shines on those who will or will not bless those that curse them. And it's still a good idea not to blow trumpets and keep your left hand from knowing what your right is doing. And... the whole jot and tittle thing is merely a good lesson in not being like allogorical hypocrites who actually think they're capable of keeping the law and were constantly using it to control and condemn others to be sons of hell like themselves.

No... reading Jesus deeper with a prejudiced mind might have me reading between the lines and loosing faith in things I have experienced as true. LIke the poorest in spirit being happiest and more than capable of helping me see heaven on earth with the simplest of things like a smile and a bowl of soup.

 

[Archer]

Outhouse I made the offer to do this in the Christian DIR so we could cut the crap. You are not seeking and understanding and are simply carrying your personal war to this venue. If you have no legitimate posts to make that are not insulting and demeaning that is fine but you are not learning anything you are trying to teach Christians that the Bible is a book of lies.

Though it technically is not proselytizing it is the same thing and this is not a debate forum either. Questions are fine as is discussion but: "so now we have ghost holding pens and laying down script do we????? all because you dont now how to read allegorically.

the bible was written by ancient man for ancient man. if you knew the bible or history [even a little] you would understand this" Is not really appropriate and I can hit the little red button if you continue to act this way.

You seem to think Christians are dumb and uneducated and if you feel that way keep it in general because there are many Christians that are highly educated and they have no mental defect either, but guess what, they still believe and have faith.

 

[waitasec]

I try not to get hung up on the whole jot and tittle thing because according to your point of view Jesus was validating an allogory. Is it that you do not believe the Gospels to be valid and also you do not believe the OT to be anything but allogorical myths written by ancient men for ancient men?

Well... the words recorded as having been spoken by Jesus to his disciples shows me that ancient men were not that different from you or I. After all... rain and sun still falls and shines on those who will or will not bless those that curse them. And it's still a good idea not to blow trumpets and keep your left hand from knowing what your right is doing. And... the whole jot and tittle thing is merely a good lesson in not being like allogorical hypocrites who actually think they're capable of keeping the law and were constantly using it to control and condemn others to be sons of hell like themselves.

No... reading Jesus deeper with a prejudiced mind might have me reading between the lines and loosing faith in things I have experienced as true. LIke the poorest in spirit being happiest and more than capable of helping me see heaven on earth with the simplest of things like a smile and a bowl of soup.

i just have to say something here...
why don't you get hung up? you said, the reason you don't doubt is because outhouse does

 

[Civil Shephard]

i just have to say something here...
why don't you get hung up? you said, the reason you don't doubt is because outhouse does

To the best of my ability I'm explaining how I as a believer in Christ understands the bible. That's it that's all and no more. I'm not addressing doubt in another...

When you started this thread you said "Lets talk" and I'm doing that to the best of my ability. I hope with all my heart that I'm not coming off as holier than though but if we're going to talk about the bible I'm going to speak from what I think are the words most faith inspiring in the bible. I understand the bible by the faith that Jesus words inspired in me and I try to reflect those words by blessing those that curse. If this be ignorance than I hope I'm the most ignorant person to ever walk the face of this earth since it is only the kindness of Christians who treated my doubts with patience and love that inspired more faith.

I understand the bible by faith and do not lay claim to logic or reason beyond what my experience accords in applying the teachings I love.

Do you find any faith in the teachings of Jesus? I mean... what inspired you to start this thread?

 

[waitasec]

To the best of my ability I'm explaining how I as a believer in Christ understands the bible. That's it that's all and no more. I'm not addressing doubt in another...

When you started this thread you said "Lets talk" and I'm doing that to the best of my ability. I hope with all my heart that I'm not coming off as holier than though but if we're going to talk about the bible I'm going to speak from what I think are the words most faith inspiring in the bible. I understand the bible by the faith that Jesus words inspired in me and I try to reflect those words by blessing those that curse. If this be ignorance than I hope I'm the most ignorant person to ever walk the face of this earth since it is only the kindness of Christians who treated my doubts with patience and love that inspired more faith.

I understand the bible by faith and do not lay claim to logic or reason beyond what my experience accords in applying the teachings I love.

Do you find any faith in the teachings of Jesus? I mean... what inspired you to start this thread?

it was through a discourse i had with archer.
if you hadn't noticed i am against the idea of religious faith, for the very same reason you mentioned, it perpetuates ignorance and, though it may be hard to see this, it feeds into our tendency to be arrogant. religious faith has the power to make very nice people, as i'm sure you are, do evil things. i have witnessed this first had on many occasions and i fell victim to that as well. not only as the believer but as a person being vilified for standing up for my truth. i like to use mother theresa as an example of the arrogance and the ignorance religious faith perpetuates. and this is why...
she proclaimed to the world that the use of birth control was worse then the spreading of aids and that it was god's will for those innocent children to be born into impoverish consequences for his purpose. while being exulted for perpetuating this horrific state she was using these lives to make it seem she was selfless. but the religious faithful were blinded, including me even though i was not a practicing catholic i was a born again pentecostal believer.
i understand the bible as feeding into the arrogance that we are all weakened by. the very notion that a deity speaks to us through an ancient book is arrogant. how can we know the unknowable? how can we understand the mind of god? the bible is correct when saying gods ways are higher than ours, that is obvious...but the ancient books gives god certain attributes for which there is absolutely no way these claims can be confirmed through the laws of nature. nature is indifferent. how can a deity be concerned with what i am thinking or doing? that is entirely up to me, what i think and what i do. the scapegoat found in christ doesn't really do anything, other then to make one feel loved even though it is undeserved. our integrity our self respect and dignity is our moral compass and these are the very same faculties we use when we doubt and are skeptical.
in genesis god says every inclination of the heart of man is evil.
that's what he told noah. well the god of the bible doesn't know us very well then, does he? we are just as capable of being good.
if you look at children, they are in the most innocent state. they are not afraid to admit they don't know, they are hungary for knowledge. children are not inclined to do evil either, they are loving, quick to forgive and are caring and they do not discriminate.

 

[Civil Shephard]

Thank you waitasec,

I've learned about my seemingly innocent arrogance through folks like yourself and have, in listening to points of view like yours been enlightened I hope, to a better understanding not just of myself and my hidden pride... but to a better presentation of things that I feel a common creator has taught me of hiding behind scripture.

And yet... I am most convinced that Christ is an understanding son of whom I think of as our creator and the original awareness of being I AM according to name given to Moses. My first church was actually Alcoholic Anonymous as I attended meetings with my mother starting at around age 6 and for the next 4 years went to many an AA meetings with my mother and found it infinitely more fun than church since everybody got a chance to talk about God where as in church one man did all the talking. When I did finally decide on Christ as my teacher it was with much searching of a young and open mind at around the age of 12. I suppose I've been in forums like these from an early age you might say. And I also suppose that what most caught my eye was how like the 12 steps first step the first beatitude gave me an insight into what I felt was the highest form of love, a poor spirit that could admit to being powerless.

Anywho... nice to meet ya!

 

[waitasec]

Thank you waitasec,

I've learned about my seemingly innocent arrogance through folks like yourself and have, in listening to points of view like yours been enlightened I hope, to a better understanding not just of myself and my hidden pride... but to a better presentation of things that I feel a common creator has taught me of hiding behind scripture.

And yet... I am most convinced that Christ is an understanding son of whom I think of as our creator and the original awareness of being I AM according to name given to Moses. My first church was actually Alcoholic Anonymous as I attended meetings with my mother starting at around age 6 and for the next 4 years went to many an AA meetings with my mother and found it infinitely more fun than church since everybody got a chance to talk about God where as in church one man did all the talking. When I did finally decide on Christ as my teacher it was with much searching of a young and open mind at around the age of 12. I suppose I've been in forums like these from an early age you might say. And I also suppose that what most caught my eye was how like the 12 steps first step the first beatitude gave me an insight into what I felt was the highest form of love, a poor spirit that could admit to being powerless.

Anywho... nice to meet ya!

nice to meet you too

now if only someone can point the arrogance, innocent or not, i may have acquired...


in all seriousness, it is when we succumb to the realization we are ultimately the captain of our destiny and it is within us we will find our worst enemy or our best ally. the dichotomy of life's conundrum.

 

[Archer]

I did get this started. Waitasec had and has some legitimate questions that I felt could no be addressed in general. The issues seems to be a lack of courtesy and consideration on both sides.

I feel that some answers are known and the questions asked anyway. I also see a lot of canned replays. The question was legitimate and it's answers could lead to understanding and perhaps commonality. I tend to stay out of the Christian DIR most of the time because I am a radical and see more wrong with Christianity than I do atheism. I mean hell at least the Athiests don't claim to believe in something and then change what things mean to suit their own inequities.

Is it any wonder we have so many atheists when so few Christians actually believe their Book? Well they don't appear to anyway.

How can you convert someone to something you don't understand or follow. How can Christians pick and choose what they are going to believe? Almost every Church and denomination has a special place in hell and their punishment will be much more than the one who chose not to believe.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.



Now with all these Bible Cults out there including those major Churches teaching counter to the Bible how can you expect someone to believe?


Better to Burn a little in hell because my Judgment was not believing than going to the molten deep fryer for lying and stealing.