How does one choose?

[Starsurfer93]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient monday. Evidently traditions change as well.

An interesting question.

I've come in contact with many people who claim that without god, our society would be a place with very little order where murder and rape run rampant. This however is not so.

Morality isn't set in stone. It varies from person to person. Culture to culture.

While the thought of an all-powerful deity looking down on you who judges your actions is a rather influential in the development of someone's moral and ethical code, it's not necessary for one to develop.

For example, take the concept of murder. I would think most of us would believe murder to be wrong. How would someone come to this conclusion without tradition, laws or god? Well, really all it takes is a person who believes taking life is wrong. They can came to this conclusion from watching someone close to them be murdered, seeing the effects murder can have on a group of people, or even just a personal preference against taking another person's life. BAM! You have someone who believes murder is morally wrong. Want to make this into a belief system that governs a group of people? All you need is one of two things:
1) A group of people who agree with your moral beliefs
or 2) Someone influential enough to sway others to accepting his beliefs.

As for the question of how one chooses their moral beliefs, well it again comes down each individual person. Morality is not one plain spread across everyone. Each individual determines what he or she believes is moral and immoral.

Namaste :namaste

 

[Astravalon]

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

By "don't need God", do you mean they don't need a belief in God, or they don't need for there to even be a God, period?

My question then is how is a person to choose?

Probably the same way anyone would. I don't think one needs a prior belief in a deity in order to make moral/ethical choices. The way I see it, God can work through a person regardless of what they've chosen to believe.

Even animals, who don't claim any religious affinity or affiliation, have demonstrated behavior that could be considered moral/ethical.

Actually, one verse from the Christian bible comes to mind: "... it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) This suggests to me that He does His work in and through creation without requiring that they swear allegiance to Him first.

 

[Looncall]

An interesting question.

I've come in contact with many people who claim that without god, our society would be a place with very little order where murder and rape run rampant. This however is not so.

Morality isn't set in stone. It varies from person to person. Culture to culture.

While the thought of an all-powerful deity looking down on you who judges your actions is a rather influential in the development of someone's moral and ethical code, it's not necessary for one to develop.

For example, take the concept of murder. I would think most of us would believe murder to be wrong. How would someone come to this conclusion without tradition, laws or god? Well, really all it takes is a person who believes taking life is wrong. They can came to this conclusion from watching someone close to them be murdered, seeing the effects murder can have on a group of people, or even just a personal preference against taking another person's life. BAM! You have someone who believes murder is morally wrong. Want to make this into a belief system that governs a group of people? All you need is one of two things:
1) A group of people who agree with your moral beliefs
or 2) Someone influential enough to sway others to accepting his beliefs.

As for the question of how one chooses their moral beliefs, well it again comes down each individual person. Morality is not one plain spread across everyone. Each individual determines what he or she believes is moral and immoral.

Namaste :namaste

Nicely put. However, I think the situation is even clearer than that. One can figure out what it takes for people to thrive in a society (we are social animals). It's not that hard. When people realize that those things also help them to thrive, presto-changeo, you have a moral code.

The golden rule is pretty obvious, after all. No sky-daddies are required. What you need sky-daddies for, though, is to get good people to do bad things.

 

[Muffled]

It's hard to have faith in something that doesn't feel right. For example, if Christianity didn't feel right, would you be still Christian? I'd like to see what the answer would be.

I don't see why I should be following something that leaves me with doubt and insecurities.

Feelings are not trustworthy. LIke impulses it is difficult to detect the origens. The materialsts will tell you those things come from the mind alone but I say that they can also be influenced by the spirit.

That reminds me one time when I had an opportunity to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior but something kept me from doing it. Now that I look back on it, the aversion was probably generated by ego. I don't believe that an ill feeling would change my outlook towards Christianity. I would recognize it as an attack of the devil.

If you have doubt and insecurities you haven't found Christianity yet. Sometimes things that aren't Christianity masquerade as such and can give a person an uncomfortable feeling that something isn't right. I had that when I studied with the JW's.

 

[Muffled]

I dig the color contrast. It's like I'm reading a rainbow. :rainbow1:

Anyway, I have read your words, but I have reason to doubt that they can accurately convey or reflect an absolute Truth held by said hypothetical entity. I understand that you believe these things. Unfortunately, there's no way for you to demonstrate their validity beyond "It is true because I believe it is true." To the best of my reasoning ability, it seems highly unlikely and suspect that the Bible is the Eternal Word or that the Eternal Word can actually be adequately written in language. I could be wrong, but for the time being I cannot convince myself otherwise. You may be the official spokesman for J.C., but I prefer to wait and listen attentively to the Sacred Silence that accompanies the divine.

I like the concept of the rainbow Bible. I gave one to a young cousin as He was going off to college, telling him his education wasn't complete without it. Strangely enough I haven't read a rainbow myself.

It is difficult for me to do so which is why I speak in parables. Sometimes even that doesn't help.

I am not. I simply allow God to speak through me. Anyone is capable of doing that also.

Silence doesn't convey a message and what passes for messages appears to come from intellect instead. I hear God best during worship music.

 

[Muffled]

By "don't need God", do you mean they don't need a belief in God, or they don't need for there to even be a God, period?

Probably the same way anyone would. I don't think one needs a prior belief in a deity in order to make moral/ethical choices. The way I see it, God can work through a person regardless of what they've chosen to believe.

Even animals, who don't claim any religious affinity or affiliation, have demonstrated behavior that could be considered moral/ethical.

Actually, one verse from the Christian bible comes to mind: "... it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) This suggests to me that He does His work in and through creation without requiring that they swear allegiance to Him first.

It would seem strange to me that someone would need a God he doesn't believe in but maybe the idea is to have a whipping boy for one's own ego. No, I think th e reasoning is this: I am moral and don't recall God having anything to do with it, so one does not need God to be moral.

I agree. However my point is that the morality originates from God at some point whether a person believes that or not.

There is no doubt in my mind that this can happen but most of the time He doesn't.

Your conclusion fails to recognize the context. God is not working that way in everyone. He is working in those who have submitted themselves to Him.

 

[Astravalon]

It would seem strange to me that someone would need a God he doesn't believe in but maybe the idea is to have a whipping boy for one's own ego. No, I think the reasoning is this: I am moral and don't recall God having anything to do with it, so one does not need God to be moral.

The thing is, I believe God exists and does all His will regardless of what His creation believes/thinks. Our opinion doesn't sway His decisions, even if those decisions involve working through a particular person. Saying God doesn't have anything to do with one's morality is tantamount to saying He had nothing to do with one's existence. I believe He permeates everything and everyone.

I agree. However my point is that the morality originates from God at some point whether a person believes that or not.

Yes, I agree. That's the point I've been trying to convey as well!

There is no doubt in my mind that this can happen but most of the time He doesn't.

I find it easier to believe that we are all the Potter's clay and can do nothing apart from Him than to try to nail down statistics as to how often He works through someone based on their beliefs about Him.

Your conclusion fails to recognize the context. God is not working that way in everyone. He is working in those who have submitted themselves to Him.

Says who, though?

There are quite a number of passages in the bible that suggest that God's will rules the day regardless of what any of His creatures believe/think. In some cases, He determines things before the individual is even born, let alone acquired a belief-system of any kind. Didn't He even speak through a donkey somewhere in the Christian scriptures? And doesn't the bible say something about even the rocks giving praise?

Also, I think that when God decides to work through someone, they would automatically be submitting to Him, because it's His will and power that's operating at that point. He doesn't have to ask our permission first, as certain Christian sects suggest.

And lest this raises yet again the concerns it usually does, no, the above view doesn't make us "robots". It makes us "clay" and Him the "Potter", as the bible says.

 

[Muffled]

The thing is, I believe God exists and does all His will regardless of what His creation believes/thinks. Our opinion doesn't sway His decisions, even if those decisions involve working through a particular person. Saying God doesn't have anything to do with one's morality is tantamount to saying He had nothing to do with one's existence. I believe He permeates everything and everyone.

Yes, I agree. That's the point I've been trying to convey as well!

I find it easier to believe that we are all the Potter's clay and can do nothing apart from Him than to try to nail down statistics as to how often He works through someone based on their beliefs about Him.

Says who, though?

There are quite a number of passages in the bible that suggest that God's will rules the day regardless of what any of His creatures believe/think. In some cases, He determines things before the individual is even born, let alone acquired a belief-system of any kind. Didn't He even speak through a donkey somewhere in the Christian scriptures? And doesn't the bible say something about even the rocks giving praise?

Also, I think that when God decides to work through someone, they would automatically be submitting to Him, because it's His will and power that's operating at that point. He doesn't have to ask our permission first, as certain Christian sects suggest.

And lest this raises yet again the concerns it usually does, no, the above view doesn't make us "robots". It makes us "clay" and Him the "Potter", as the bible says.

Says verse 12: Phil 2:12 ¶ So then, my beloved,

By addressing the beloved, he reveals that he is speaking to Christians. It is also true that the letter was written to Christians.

 

[Astravalon]

Your conclusion fails to recognize the context. God is not working that way in everyone. He is working in those who have submitted themselves to Him.

Says who, though?

Says verse 12: Phil 2:12 ¶ So then, my beloved,

By addressing the beloved, he reveals that he is speaking to Christians. It is also true that the letter was written to Christians.

Well, he obviously couldn’t speak to everyone on earth at once, so of course the immediate audience would be limited and the assumption made that if they were Christians, then he must've only meant Christians. I mean, if we just go by audience-relevance, none of the bible addresses us in particular, since we didn’t even exist back then.

However, there are plenty of other parts of scripture that indicate that God is working in everyone. According to some verses, even our submission to Him is something He does in us. :yes: It seems to me that He doesn’t wait for us to submit (i.e., give Him permission) before doing what He wants to with (and within) His creation.

 

[waitasec]

He is working in those who have submitted themselves to Him.

then salvation is based on works...

isn't it good to know you play such a vital role in your salvation?

 

[Muffled]

then salvation is based on works...

isn't it good to know you play such a vital role in your salvation?

Salvation is a work of God not of man. If man could save himself, he wouldn't need a savior.

It doesn't matter to me. I am not looking for ego fulfillment. I simply want to have a good life

 

[Muffled]

Well, he obviously couldn’t speak to everyone on earth at once, so of course the immediate audience would be limited and the assumption made that if they were Christians, then he must've only meant Christians. I mean, if we just go by audience-relevance, none of the bible addresses us in particular, since we didn’t even exist back then.

However, there are plenty of other parts of scripture that indicate that God is working in everyone. According to some verses, even our submission to Him is something He does in us. :yes: It seems to me that He doesn’t wait for us to submit (i.e., give Him permission) before doing what He wants to with (and within) His creation.

However since I am a Christian when Christians are addressed as a group, I am a member of that group.

Say that an atheist reads this verse and thinks "I can do whatever I want because God will automatically be at work in me." That is not the case. God will not work in that person unless the person asks Him to, unless of course God has a particular use for the person and supercedes the person's wishes. Otherwise, what shall we say that God was at work in the person in Aurora, Colorado who shot up a movie theatre. God forbid!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Otherwise, what shall we say that God was at work in the person in Aurora, Colorado who shot up a movie theatre. God forbid!

So, God couldn't have done anything about that?

 

[Astravalon]

Your conclusion fails to recognize the context. God is not working that way in everyone. He is working in those who have submitted themselves to Him.

then salvation is based on works...
isn't it good to know you play such a vital role in your salvation?

Salvation is a work of God not of man.

I would agree that salvation -- assuming it was ever needed, of course -- is a work of God. This would also include the act of submitting oneself to God, imo. There are scriptures that indicate that belief, faith, repentance, etc. are works of God and not things we hope to conjure up ourselves on a good day.

However since I am a Christian when Christians are addressed as a group, I am a member of that group.

Lots of groups in which I could insert myself are addressed in ancient texts. Women are addressed in them, and I'm a woman. Does that mean those texts are talking to me specifically? Not necessarily.

Say that an atheist reads this verse and thinks "I can do whatever I want because God will automatically be at work in me." That is not the case. God will not work in that person unless the person asks Him to, unless of course God has a particular use for the person and supercedes the person's wishes. Otherwise, what shall we say that God was at work in the person in Aurora, Colorado who shot up a movie theatre. God forbid!

Even if one chose not to believe that God is working in and through everything (though there's quite a list of verses that say He definitely does), one cannot escape the fact that God set up everything to function the way it does. Out of all the infinite possibilities available to an infinitely powerful Deity, this world, as we know it and have known it, is how God chose to design it.

With power comes responsibility -- and since God is all-powerful, He is, therefore, all-responsible. Whether God was working through [whichever criminal is being made the Example of the Day] or simply standing aside watching as the criminal do what he/she do, events are still taking place by His will. Whether an all-powerful God is making it happen or allowing it to happen doesn't really make a difference as the outcome is the same.

 

[waitasec]

Salvation is a work of God not of man. If man could save himself, he wouldn't need a savior.

so how exactly does one submit to god without working at it?

It doesn't matter to me. I am not looking for ego fulfillment. I simply want to have a good life

big whoppty doo
what unbeliever doesn't?

are you that disconnected...wow

 

[Muffled]

So, God couldn't have done anything about that?

Of course He could. Just remember that 50% of the people in this country deserve to die because of the murder of unborn children.

 

[Muffled]

so how exactly does one submit to god without working at it?


big whoppty doo
what unbeliever doesn't?

are you that disconnected...wow

An unbeliever has voluntarily chosen not to have a good life. He just doesn't realize that he made that choice.

I release my will from controlling my mind and body and allow the spirit of God to control my mind and body.

 

[Muffled]

I would agree that salvation -- assuming it was ever needed, of course -- is a work of God. This would also include the act of submitting oneself to God, imo. There are scriptures that indicate that belief, faith, repentance, etc. are works of God and not things we hope to conjure up ourselves on a good day.

Lots of groups in which I could insert myself are addressed in ancient texts. Women are addressed in them, and I'm a woman. Does that mean those texts are talking to me specifically? Not necessarily.

Even if one chose not to believe that God is working in and through everything (though there's quite a list of verses that say He definitely does), one cannot escape the fact that God set up everything to function the way it does. Out of all the infinite possibilities available to an infinitely powerful Deity, this world, as we know it and have known it, is how God chose to design it.

With power comes responsibility -- and since God is all-powerful, He is, therefore, all-responsible. Whether God was working through [whichever criminal is being made the Example of the Day] or simply standing aside watching as the criminal do what he/she do, events are still taking place by His will. Whether an all-powerful God is making it happen or allowing it to happen doesn't really make a difference as the outcome is the same.

I have a free will. I chose to submit to God. He did manage the circumstances to make that choice clearer but it was still my choice. I have a daughter who believes in God but does not wish to be saved from her sin. Her life is not a good life and most of the time she is depressed. (If I had to lead her life, I would be depressed also)

I don't think you would find one for repentance, since it is an act of a person's will.

True but the context does show whether a particular woman is being addressed or women in general.

That is incorrect. God created the world and called it good. Somewhere along the line it became a broken world and not near what God intended it to be.

There is a difference between God's perfect will and His permissive will. God permits evil to exist on earth for a time but it is not His will that people should practice evil or be bamboozled by the devil into an evil act.

 

[Draka]

Of course He could. Just remember that 50% of the people in this country deserve to die because of the murder of unborn children.

Wait, sorry to just pop in here, but trying to follow this. A guy shoots people in a theater, a guy you seem to think your god has nothing to do with, he could have have done something about the shooting, but didn't, because 50% of the people in this country deserve to die because of unborn children being murdered? A train of thought just completely derailed there. What?

 

[waitasec]

An unbeliever has voluntarily chosen

a believer has volunteered to choose...it's a work, an action that only the believer can do because...the believer believes.


the believer is the captain of their destiny...isn't that nice to know?

not to have a good life.

this believer has chosen to :ignore: the obvious mistake in this baseless claim
and the funny thing is this believer chose to, willful ignorance anyone?

I release my will from controlling my mind and body and allow the spirit of God to control my mind and body.

right you have the power to release your will to begin with..no one else does...not even your god which shows how insignificant and impotent your god is...until you release your will.