How good is good enough to get to Heaven?

[Wolke]

You can only get to heaven if you love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.

The creature is temporal and will pass away. Heaven is eternity; the 'complete day', not the day that passes.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Wait... so the people who use protection while committing "sexual sins" are acting wisely and therefore unlikely to be sinners?

IMO all men are sinners Jeff. I don't believe anyone is "good enough" to go to heaven.

It is the gift of salvation that gets us to heaven not our actions according to the Bible.

 

[1robin]

You can only get to heaven if you love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.

The creature is temporal and will pass away. Heaven is eternity; the 'complete day', not the day that passes.

How is that measured? How would you know if you have met your standard?

 

[1robin]

What makes you think that?

Because he spent a large portion of the most influential 750,000 words ever written being very concerned with justice. Only with God does the term have any actual absolute meaning.

 

[1robin]

Does God sin as well? Does he have bowels? Does he like kitten videos?

How far down will you drag God to become human?

Are you equating awareness with intestines?

 

[1robin]

Obviously I believe the Christian standard (grace), which Walkntune laid out pretty nicely, is what God uses to judge mankind. I'm interested in hearing about what people here believe that standard to be and how they rationalize it. To reject the idea that only by grace can we get to Heaven is to accept the idea that a certain level of imperfection exists which is the line between that and going to Hell. Where do people believe that line is drawn?

The line is perfection. That is why Christ's perfect "record" with God must be transferred to our account through being born again and why our sinful record was transferred to him and dealt with on the cross. The line is out of reach of any man's natural grasp.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The line is perfection. That is why Christ's perfect "record" with God must be transferred to our account through being born again and why our sinful record was transferred to him and dealt with on the cross. The line is out of reach of any man's natural grasp.

Exactly Right.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The line is perfection. That is why Christ's perfect "record" with God must be transferred to our account through being born again and why our sinful record was transferred to him and dealt with on the cross. The line is out of reach of any man's natural grasp.

This seems to me to imply that humanity was doomed to fail from the start: that some sort of "fall" was inevitable. Do you agree?

 

[Madhuri]

Hinduism doesn't have the concept that God judges us and decides who gets admitted into Heaven.

Heaven, or the Spiritual realm, is a space or existence that is achieved through reaching enlightenment (Realisation). We take ourselves there, in other words, by realising the nature of our Self and God. This can take many life times but ultimately, everyone achieves this goal. So according to my religion, everyone gets to Heaven eventually.

 

[1robin]

This seems to me to imply that humanity was doomed to fail from the start: that some sort of "fall" was inevitable. Do you agree?

No, Humanity was made perfect. Adam never sinned nor knew what sin was until the apple incident. I do not think it is a literal story but I have no idea what actually happened. The Bible makes clear only a few essential things. Adam never sinned, then he made some horrible mistake which caused mankind to fall. I have always thought that a bit unjust after all I was not there. However after research I believe Adam was a perfect archetype of any one of us. He was as we all are capable of acting perfectly but we’ll all choose not to. This may seem like being doomed and maybe it is in a way but if you adopted my very well evidenced interpretation of Hell it would not really matter.

1. We are all born separate from God.
2. We all are in the category of those who are at enmity with God and are rebellious and have all committed enough to sin to warrant not being eligible to get into heaven.
3. God fixed this problem through his own suffering.
4. We must admit the simple fact we are sinners and accept our pardon and get into a heaven we do not deserve.
5. Or we may stubbornly refuse to admit our fault and need of God and be cast into Hell (where our soul is destroyed because it was misused). This is no worse than what happens to everyone in your world view so there should not be an crocodile tears I hope.

On your view we all live a life without any ultimate meaning from a cosmic blink of time and even the whole purposeless universe is destroyed along with all of our bodies, souls, and those of everyone we ever cared about. With God we have eternal meaning, a universe with a purpose, a profound origin and destination. Everyone who wants God gets him and a heaven they do not deserve. All those who do not get exactly what they chose no God and are no worse off than everyone in your world view. There is only net gain with God and it would be a shame to miss o=all of that because you think you would have done things another way.
I kind of balked on the predestined to fail issue because it is very hard to understand what knowing the future would mean. However even if doomed to fail teh only chance of rectification comes with God not in opposition to him.

 

[1robin]

Hinduism doesn't have the concept that God judges us and decides who gets admitted into Heaven.

Heaven, or the Spiritual realm, is a space or existence that is achieved through reaching enlightenment (Realisation). We take ourselves there, in other words, by realising the nature of our Self and God. This can take many life times but ultimately, everyone achieves this goal. So according to my religion, everyone gets to Heaven eventually.

I hear of this enlightenment a lot but never meet any one who is. It is always some other person that is enlightened. Are you? How do you know or would you know? Where is any evidence that people come back? One thing is for certain they show up without benefit of any prior knowledge.

 

[Madhuri]

I hear of this enlightenment a lot but never meet any one who is. It is always some other person that is enlightened. Are you? How do you know or would you know? Where is any evidence that people come back? One thing is for certain they show up without benefit of any prior knowledge.

I don't think that we could know for sure if an individual is enlightened. I do very much believe that there are enlightened people. They don't stick around on this planet for long though.

I would say that Jesus is a great example of what an enlightened person is like. They are completely God conscious, they see God everywhere and show this through the way they treat everyone and everything.

As for evidence that people come back, there are documentaries about people who have remembered past lives but generally it is only people who are in the process of opening up their chakras who perceive that beyond their material senses.
For the rest of us, the belief of reincarnation is a matter of faith. It also perfectly fits in with the rest of the philosophy. If you take away reincarnation or karma or any single aspect, the rest of the philosophy has holes.

Reincarnation explains why people are born the way that they are born and with the skills and disposition they are born with.

 

[1robin]

I don't think that we could know for sure if an individual is enlightened. I do very much believe that there are enlightened people. They don't stick around on this planet for long though.

Ok, then how would a person himself know if enlightened. Please note that you are one more in a line of hundreds that claims enlightenment exists but it is always someone else who is. I want to one day actually find one of these enlightened people and ask questions

I would say that Jesus is a great example of what an enlightened person is like. They are completely God conscious, they see God everywhere and show this through the way they treat everyone and everything.

Well Christ was certainly enlightened but he did not give any verses on reincarnation, Hinduism, or the Vedas. In fact he taught the opposite and condemned all other belief systems and God's. Claiming Christ was enlightened is a two edged sword in your case. So far you have given me one person who was enlightened. Are the other 9,999,999,999 of us screwed? By now should there not be vast numbers of these enlightened people around?

As for evidence that people come back, there are documentaries about people who have remembered past lives but generally it is only people who are in the process of opening up their chakras who perceive that beyond their material senses.
For the rest of us, the belief of reincarnation is a matter of faith. It also perfectly fits in with the rest of the philosophy. If you take away reincarnation or karma or any single aspect, the rest of the philosophy has holes.

What, in philosophy has anything to do with reincarnation or Karma? In fact every major philosopher I know of would deny both. There are also documentaries that show that these past life events are nonsense. I would not however throw the idea out just yet but even the ones I have seen have little to do with Hinduism. They claim to have past lives but if not being suggestible and in fact believe what they say the lives they speak of bear no aspects of Karma and are all over the spectrum and I have never heard a single one claim a past animal form but in this insane world there may have been a few who did.

Reincarnation explains why people are born the way that they are born and with the skills and disposition they are born with.

The Bible also does and in a vastly more comprehensive and thorough way. The Bible is also drastically more logical and intuitive. It has no cows becoming people or vice versa. The Bible does have extraordinary claims and supplies (the necessary) extraordinary evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts so consistent and detailed that two of the greatest experts on evidence and testimony (Simon Greenleaf and Lord Lyndhurst) among many, claim they meet every modern standard of law and the historical method. There is not a single eyewitness account even theoretically possible with reincarnation. To convince me I may be a cow or a king in the next life would require as many or more documented miracles prophecies performed for the 4000 plus years they have been recorded for Christianity. The Bible records a demonstration of God's power before countless people, does Hinduism?

I have a question: How long a period of time was Hinduism contributed to, and by how many authors for the Vedas for example were there? Do you know why even the aggressive missionaries had such numbers convert to Christianity from Hinduism in India?

 

[Madhuri]

Ok, then how would a person himself know if enlightened. Please note that you are one more in a line of hundreds that claims enlightenment exists but it is always someone else who is. I want to one day actually find one of these enlightened people and ask questions

I believe that I have met at least one enlightened person.
I'm not sure if you are asking how would I know if I met one or how I would know that I am enlightened.

Enlightenment/Realisation, according to Hindu/Vedic teachings, is the state of being fully aware of God and Self. I think if you are that aware, you would understand that you've reached the final stage in your personal spiritual evolution.

Well Christ was certainly enlightened but he did not give any verses on reincarnation, Hinduism, or the Vedas. In fact he taught the opposite and condemned all other belief systems and God's. Claiming Christ was enlightened is a two edged sword in your case. So far you have given me one person who was enlightened. Are the other 9,999,999,999 of us screwed? By now should there not be vast numbers of these enlightened people around?

I don't consider the Bible to hold much validity. I'm careful about my wording, which is why I said Jesus is an example of what an Enlightened person would be like.

Of course there are other examples. I mention Jesus because I at least expect that you know who he is.

I would not expect there to be many enlightened people around. The point of Enlightenment is that once you get to it, you can escape material existence and go to God (ie/ Heaven). It's only the unenlightened who continue to take birth in the material universe.

What, in philosophy has anything to do with reincarnation or Karma? In fact every major philosopher I know of would deny both. There are also documentaries that show that these past life events are nonsense. I would not however throw the idea out just yet but even the ones I have seen have little to do with Hinduism. They claim to have past lives but if not being suggestible and in fact believe what they say the lives they speak of bear no aspects of Karma and are all over the spectrum and I have never heard a single one claim a past animal form but in this insane world there may have been a few who did.

What does it matter if the documentaries are to do with Hinduism? A person who remembers their past life isn't going to automatically have some insight into Hinduism. They may not have ever heard of it. And it is certainly not the only religion to teach reincarnation. Most eastern religions and many ancient religions also teach/taught reincarnation or rebirth.

Why would they speak about karma or make conclusions about karma? How could anyone possibly understand their karma from remembering some parts of their previous life?

The Bible also does and in a vastly more comprehensive and thorough way. The Bible is also drastically more logical and intuitive. It has no cows becoming people or vice versa. The Bible does have extraordinary claims and supplies (the necessary) extraordinary evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts so consistent and detailed that two of the greatest experts on evidence and testimony (Simon Greenleaf and Lord Lyndhurst) among many, claim they meet every modern standard of law and the historical method. There is not a single eyewitness account even theoretically possible with reincarnation. To convince me I may be a cow or a king in the next life would require as many or more documented miracles prophecies performed for the 4000 plus years they have been recorded for Christianity. The Bible records a demonstration of God's power before countless people, does Hinduism?

Wow, why are you turning this into a 'my religion is better than yours' argument?

If you want to know more about Hinduism, study it.

I know plenty about Christianity, having grown up with it all around me. My own father is a vicar. And knowing what I know, I personally find Hinduism so far superior in all regards. Each to their own I guess.

I have a question: How long a period of time was Hinduism contributed to, and by how many authors for the Vedas for example were there? Do you know why even the aggressive missionaries had such numbers convert to Christianity from Hinduism in India?

Of course I don't know 'how many'. The Vedas are believed to be revelations directly from the Divine and they were handed down from Master to student orally since ancient times.

I think that a lot of Hindus converted to Christianity in India because the Christian missionaries offered financial support and education opportunities. In addition, many missionaries took it upon themselves to 'educate' the very poor and illiterate Hindus about the evils of Hinduism (telling great lies and twisting stories) in order to turn them toward Christianity.

This is pretty much common knowledge. The missionaries did this here in Australia with the Aborigines. Force them to convert so they could have access to food and comfort.

I'm not really sure why you are asking this question though. Are you going to try and bash Hinduism? How much do you actually know about it?

By the way, cows don't turn into humans. Humans don't turn into cows. Hindus believe that every living body contains a soul and the soul is actually us. It isn't the cow that turns into a human. It is the soul that takes a new body. This is an important distinction to be aware of.

 

[Sumit]

Please note that you are one more in a line of hundreds that claims enlightenment exists but it is always someone else who is. I want to one day actually find one of these enlightened people and ask questions

And I hope you will soon find any enlightened personality sitting on your pc, or any one of them will upload his/her video on youtube specially for you. :biglaugh:

The Bible also does and in a vastly more comprehensive and thorough way. The Bible is also drastically more logical and intuitive. It has no cows becoming people or vice versa. The Bible does have extraordinary claims and supplies (the necessary) extraordinary evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts so consistent and detailed that two of the greatest experts on evidence and testimony (Simon Greenleaf and Lord Lyndhurst) among many, claim they meet every modern standard of law and the historical method. There is not a single eyewitness account even theoretically possible with reincarnation. To convince me I may be a cow or a king in the next life would require as many or more documented miracles prophecies performed for the 4000 plus years they have been recorded for Christianity.

This reminds me story of Swami Vivekanand (frog in the well). If Bible is so extraordinary, does it explain why people are born in rich and poor family, why some people are born with disease and suffer their whole life while other leads healthy life. Some even dies in their childhood.

The Bible records a demonstration of God's power before countless people, does Hinduism?

No in Hinduism god does not need to do such little acts to prove it. But many Hindus so, but to meet them you must leave your keyboard and visit Bengal, Uttarakhand, Nepal and region of Himalays and Tibet.

Do you know why even the aggressive missionaries had such numbers convert to Christianity from Hinduism in India?

Today People prefer Alcohol and cigeretts over Milk or fruits but does it prove these better.

 

[Alceste]

Hinduism doesn't have the concept that God judges us and decides who gets admitted into Heaven.

Heaven, or the Spiritual realm, is a space or existence that is achieved through reaching enlightenment (Realisation). We take ourselves there, in other words, by realising the nature of our Self and God. This can take many life times but ultimately, everyone achieves this goal. So according to my religion, everyone gets to Heaven eventually.

Sign me up for that one.

 

[1robin]

And I hope you will soon find any enlightened personality sitting on your pc, or any one of them will upload his/her video on youtube specially for you.

That was not a comment that was in the context of a Forum. I asked for anyone to produce an enlightened individual in any context. It is always someone else. I have done this or noticed this in every context by which theology is commonly researched.

This reminds me story of Swami Vivekanand (frog in the well). If Bible is so extraordinary, does it explain why people are born in rich and poor family, why some people are born with disease and suffer their whole life while other leads healthy life. Some even dies in their childhood.

Yes, however before I get into it Hinduism claimed to supply this first so they must explain it first.

No in Hinduism god does not need to do such little acts to prove it. But many Hindus so, but to meet them you must leave your keyboard and visit Bengal, Uttarakhand, Nepal and region of Himalays and Tibet.

No thanks it takes too many shots to visit these places and third world living conditions in most.

That is very convenient. No other major religion on Earth can supply evidence for miracles as the Bible does and so their most spirited efforts to reduce the impact of any evidence is substituted instead. Let's instead examine it from a view point we can all observe. Why have most of Earth's most advanced cultures in the last 2000 years been Christian? Look at a list of top scientists, doctors, inventions, or economics. As little as 100 years ago a single man eating Tiger would paralyze an entire Indian region with abject superstitious fear. More than not a Christian by the name of Corbett was called in to take care of the problem. Any religion claiming to be divine should not produce this abject level of dysfunction. BTW the man eating problem in India was caused primarily because of Hindu burial customs.

Today People prefer Alcohol and cigarettes over Milk or fruits but does it prove these better.

You actually considered that statement worthy of that emoticon. Now that deserves an emoticon. Since you obviously didn't know, the reason they abandoned Hinduism in droves even though the Protégées missionaries were horrible is because Hinduism locks people in caste systems at the bottom with no possible way out. Christianity frees the captives, cures the sick, saves the lost, makes men equal, gives sanctity to human life, and produces intellectual breakthroughs that outstrip any other religion by far. Hinduism enslaves the poor and apparently produces unjustified emoticon use.

Where are the Hindu Newtons, Pascals, Faradays, Sandages, Maxwells, Galileos, Davincis, Keplers, Bacons, Descartes, Boyles, Mendels, Kelvin, Plancks, etc adinfinitum?

 

[1robin]

Sign me up for that one.

Hello Alceste, I think we have proof that preference drives you theological choices. I am book marking this for future use.

 

[Madhuri]

You actually considered that statement worthy of that emoticon. Now that deserves an emoticon. Since you obviously didn't know, the reason they abandoned Hinduism in droves even though the Protégées missionaries were horrible is because Hinduism locks people in caste systems at the bottom with no possible way out. Christianity frees the captives, cures the sick, saves the lost, makes men equal, gives sanctity to human life, and produces intellectual breakthroughs that outstrip any other religion by far. Hinduism enslaves the poor and apparently produces unjustified emoticon use.

Don't you realise that this is all about context and nothing to do with religion?

You mention the caste system. The caste system is a cultural paradigm that should not exist if Hinduism today were based purely on scripture. I doubt that the caste system will survive many more generations within Hinduism. But Hinduism cannot be harmed by the extinction of the caste system, since the caste system is not Vedic.

You say that Christianity does so many wonderful things. But there have been times when it did not. There have been times where Christians have done truly horrendous things (created captives and killed people off who weren't Christian). But I do not say that these acts are representative of Christianity, because they have no basing in the scripture just like caste system has no basing in scripture.

If Hindus were today to follow their scriptures properly, they too would put their energy into helping others by all means.

Do you know that India was once very wealthy? Then it was invaded and pillaged by first Muslims and then Christians. India, and the Hindus, became very poor. How do you expect very poor people to manage to do great things in the world and become amazing scientists? Thank you Muslims and Christians for putting us in our place...and thank you so much Robin, for bringing up this issue.

 

[Madhuri]

That is very convenient. No other major religion on Earth can supply evidence for miracles as the Bible does and so their most spirited efforts to reduce the impact of any evidence is substituted instead.

The biggest difference between Christians and Hindus is that Hindus are not obsessed with ramming their religion down people's throats. Hindus are very chill in this regard. If I'm not rushing to throw you my evidence, it's because I truly don't think it worthwhile. This is very different from saying that we lack evidence. But if you actually have any interest in the religion, which I doubt you do, then please feel free to study it yourself.

BTW the man eating problem in India was caused primarily because of Hindu burial customs.

Hindu burial customs? Most Hindu cremate...
Not sure what you are talking about here.