How hard do you have to try to be an atheist?

[Spiderman]

You mentioned a whole lot of beliefs there. Why would any of them be true, any more than we would have a sun or have evolved from apes?

All I'm saying is I don't see why it would be harder to be an atheist than a theist. In the end, you have to believe more things to be a theist

It's just impossible for me to be an atheist. Some of it is from experience. Some of it is from things I've read. Some of it is it goes totally against all my ability to reason and logic

 

[Spiderman]

You don't need to convince yourself, I just think creationists are doing a service to atheism by not understanding what they are criticizing. When I stopped being an atheist, I didn't suddenly lose my understanding of the sciences. Indeed if I had to disbelieve evolution to believe in God, I would have stayed atheist, but of course I have no problem fitting the two together.


It depends on what you see there. What do you think evolution theory says happens there?

I see a change in heritable characteristics and an entire change in species

 

[tempogain]

It's just impossible for me to be an atheist. Some of it is from experience. Some of it is from things I've read. Some of it is it goes totally against all my ability to reason and logic

I could possibly be a theist, but I'd have to have some positive reasons to believe. What you've said in this thread seems to boil down to "I don't understand why this is, so God".

 

[Spiderman]

I could possibly be a theist, but I'd have to have some positive reasons to believe. What you've said in this thread seems to boil down to "I don't understand why this is, so God".

without believing in God, I have to believe that something, perhaps a big bang, created around Earth, created a sun in the perfect place so that creatures and plants could survive, and then for some reason all these creatures start existing, and all these plants, vegetables, fruits, herbs, minerals, oil, precious resources like gold and silver and diamonds, all just came out of nothing, at random, for no apparent reason....

Yeah, that's really easy to believe.

 

[Jumi]

I see a change in heritable characteristics and an entire change in species

It all depends on how you think it happens...

Does this sound like what you think evolution is:

The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition and provides a clearer view of how we are connected: chimps and bonobos in particular take pride of place as our nearest living relatives, sharing approximately 99 percent of our DNA, with gorillas trailing at 98 percent.

Small changes in genetics("heritable characteristics") is a big deal. We're completely different from chimpanzees, yet we share 99 percent "heritable characteristics"

When I was learning evolution(I was an atheist then) and how complex our biology is, a friend of mine exclaimed that this is the best proof of God he'd ever heard. Indeed the man stopped drinking soon after. Evolution isn't a problem for him and it isn't a problem to me. Besides, most of my biology teachers were Christian, so I never understood the US Christian idea that evolution is an evil atheist plot.

 

[Altfish]

I think most of us have had periods in our life where we were atheists.

When you were an atheist, or if you are an atheist, do you ever have to try hard to be an atheist?

For instance, I would bite into a strawberry and observe the strawberry, taste the strawberry, and think to myself, maybe that strawberry was designed to be delightful to our taste buds.

It just seemed like as an atheist, there were constant signs popping up, that maybe there was some sort of intelligent design, destiny, and plan behind the existence of mankind.

I don't see chimpanzees or any other apes evolving... whatever the other apes invent, was the same thing they were inventing thousands of years ago.

It's like my baboon tarantula, invents all kinds of groovy webs, and intricate tunnels throughout the dirt, and it's his home.

That's an example of what animals invent. It is very primitive, and no more advanced then what they were creating thousands of years ago.

Humans on the other hand have Internet, space ships that fly to the moon, robots on Mars, satellites in outer space, airplanes, brain surgery, open heart surgery, kidney dialysis, pacemakers, x-rays, credit cards, MRIS, knee and hip replacement, cell phones, computers, printers, nuclear power, and nuclear weapons.

It made me think, perhaps scripture is right, that mankind was made in God's image, and maybe that is why we invent all these things that other Apes do not.


It was hard for me to be an atheist, when I can't find a single person on the planet who is half chimpanzee and half human. There really should be a chimpanzee out there that is more advanced than the rest at least, who invents something more new or something that resembles civilization.

These factors made it very difficult, and I had to try really hard to be an atheist.

It also made me wonder, how did this humble Jesus figure, who was born in a barn in complete poverty, and a humble Carpenter, start a movement that conquered the Roman Empire, and has Conquered 2.2 billion hearts, and lead to a book that is a best seller year after year?

How we date everything centers on his life, "before Christ or after Christ." And more books, shrines, structures, basilicas, and cathedrals are in his honor, more so than anyone else in history.

As an Atheist, it was hard for me to believe that evolved chimps wrote a fairytale, that influences and governs more than 2.2 billion Christians, and 1.8 billion Muslims, in a massively powerful way.

I always had to wonder, perhaps there is a supernatural force behind all of this? Perhaps this was the destiny of mankind?

Any thoughts?

Humans are fascinating Apes...

To be honest I find this to be a silly question??
Surely it is harder to be a believer than an atheist?
Atheism is the default position, you are born not believing, then through parents, school, church, etc. you are told stories of a mystical being who control your life. Through peer pressure many decide to go along with the stories and commit to a life of sin and homage.
Us atheists may have gone along for a time but many haven't, we then reject the stories for what they are..ie stories! Then we get on with our lives.
Science backs up our belief because there is no evidence of god(s). Evolution, plate tectonics, the Big Bang give better (and provable) explanations than anything in holy books.
You say "I don't see any evidence that other apes have evolved at all in thousands of years."; well I have to say you are reading the wrong books, there is plenty of evidence out there, plenty on Youtube. Try Potholer's channel as a good start.
The fact that our calendars follow the birth of Jesus is a historical quirk. Does it make Greek gods more believable because the days of the week are named after them?

Atheists have nothing to explain, theists do.

 

[tempogain]

without believing in God, I have to believe that something, perhaps a big bang, created around Earth, created a sun in the perfect place so that creatures and plants could survive, and then for some reason all these creatures start existing, and all these plants, vegetables, fruits, herbs, minerals, oil, precious resources like gold and silver and diamonds, all just came out of nothing, at random, for no apparent reason....

Yeah, that's really easy to believe.

And you seem to believe that a God who was able and willing to do all those things just came out of nothing, at random, for no apparent reason (except to do those things for us!)....

We're in the same boat there. You just have an extra step that I guess makes it easier for you to understand. God doesn't make things easier to understand for me. It just adds another question.

 

[Spiderman]

To be honest I find this to be a silly question??
Surely it is harder to be a believer than an atheist?
Atheism is the default position, you are born not believing, then through parents, school, church, etc. you are told stories of a mystical being who control your life. Through peer pressure many decide to go along with the stories and commit to a life of sin and homage.
Us atheists may have gone along for a time but many haven't, we then reject the stories for what they are..ie stories! Then we get on with our lives.
Science backs up our belief because there is no evidence of god(s). Evolution, plate tectonics, the Big Bang give better (and provable) explanations than anything in holy books.
You say "I don't see any evidence that other apes have evolved at all in thousands of years."; well I have to say you are reading the wrong books, there is plenty of evidence out there, plenty on Youtube. Try Potholer's channel as a good start.
The fact that our calendars follow the birth of Jesus is a historical quirk. Does it make Greek gods more believable because the days of the week are named after them?

Atheists have nothing to explain, theists do.

It would be a lot harder for me to believe that out of nothing came a round Earth, and a sun in the perfect place, so that plants and animals could have life, and then Precious resources like gold, silver, diamonds, water, fruit, vegetables, herbs, animals, and eventually human beings all just started existing, and it essentially came from nothing, perhaps a big bang...

It's a lot easier for me to believe that there was a force with a plan that could create.

I'm not saying you have to believe in the Bible. I think much of the Bible is stupid and goes against my conscience.

I just know I would have to try really really hard to be an atheist. actually, I think it would be impossible for me to be an atheist without a miracle

 

[Jumi]

To be honest I find this to be a silly question??
Surely it is harder to be a believer than an atheist?

It depends on ones circumstance which is hard and which is easy. Both can be just as natural as the other.

Atheism is the default position, you are born not believing, then through parents, school, church, etc. you are told stories of a mystical being who control your life. Through peer pressure many decide to go along with the stories and commit to a life of sin and homage.

Sounds too simplistic, but it's true many people have been railroaded to theism or atheism.

Atheists have nothing to explain, theists do.

False.

 

[Spiderman]

And you seem to believe that a God who was able and willing to do all those things just came out of nothing, at random, for no apparent reason (except to do those things for us!)....

We're in the same boat there. You just have an extra step that I guess makes it easier for you to understand. God doesn't make things easier to understand for me. It just adds another question.

I'm a lot easier to accept the mystery behind a creator existing... yes, it's a mystery, but it's an easier mystery for me to believe, then to believe out of nothing eventually came forth some ape-like creatures that eventually evolved into an ape that invents cell phones, airplanes, automobiles, internet, credit cards, spaceships that fly to the moon, satellites in the sky, robots on Mars, while the chimpanzees that we have so much in common with haven't even come close to inventing the wheel, water wells, civilization.etc.

 

[Jumi]

I'm a lot easier to accept the mystery behind a creator existing... yes, it's a mystery, but it's an easier mystery for me to believe, then to believe out of nothing eventually came forth some ape-like creatures that eventually evolved into an ape that invents cell phones, airplanes, automobiles, internet, credit cards, spaceships that fly to the moon, satellites in the sky, robots on Mars, while the chimpanzees that we have so much in common with haven't even come close to inventing the wheel, water wells, civilization.etc.

Technology and human-like civilization are a natural consequence of language. Chimpanzees can use tools or be inventive, but how well do you think they can pass it on? Once we developed writing, ideas no longer disappeared when the last one understanding something died.

 

[tempogain]

I'm a lot easier to accept the mystery behind a creator existing... yes, it's a mystery, but it's an easier mystery for me to believe, then to believe out of nothing eventually came forth some ape-like creatures that eventually evolved into an ape that invents cell phones, airplanes, automobiles, internet, credit cards, spaceships that fly to the moon, satellites in the sky, robots on Mars, while the chimpanzees that we have so much in common with haven't even come close to inventing the wheel, water wells, civilization.etc.

There you go. The core of our disagreement has been reached Not much I can say about that, except that I see it the other way.

One thing that occurs to me is that this is the only world we know in a massive universe. It's pretty cool for us that we're here and can do those awesome things. From our viewpoint it matters a lot, but does it matter on a cosmic scale?

We've developed in an entirely different direction than chimpanzees, and every other mammal and animal on Earth ultimately. Why not say fish? Why can't fish build airplanes? Different animals can do different things. There's nothing that says chimpanzees or us had to develop our capabilities. We have, just like fish have developed the ability to live underwater, something we can't do. Again, it may seem amazing to us that we have much different intelligence which enables us to develop technology, etc., but what makes that particular characteristic indicative of our creation by a God?

 

[Spiderman]

Technology and human-like civilization are a natural consequence of language. Chimpanzees can use tools or be inventive, but how well do you think they can pass it on? Once we developed writing, ideas no longer disappeared when the last one understanding something died.

since you are not an atheist. I don't even know why we're debating this

 

[Spiderman]

There you go. The core of our disagreement has been reached Not much I can say about that, except that I see it the other way.

One thing that occurs to me is that this is the only world we know in a massive universe. It's pretty cool for us that we're here and can do those awesome things. From our viewpoint it matters a lot, but does it matter on a cosmic scale?

We've developed in an entirely different direction than chimpanzees, and every other mammal and animal on Earth ultimately. Why not say fish? Why can't fish build airplanes? Different animals can do different things. There's nothing that says chimpanzees or us had to develop our capabilities. We have, just like fish have developed the ability to live underwater, something we can't do. Again, it may seem amazing to us that we have much different intelligence which enables us to develop technology, etc., but what makes that particular characteristic indicative of our creation by a God?

I think the existence of gold, silver, and diamonds alone is indicative of a God. Those precious resources just materialized out of nothing? Really?

The existence of plants, herbs, fruit and vegetables is indicative of God.

The existence of beautiful colorful animals with interesting designs, is indicative of God.

the existence of humans, is indicative of God.

the existence of the Sun in the perfect place, to give life to us all is indicative of God.

the fact that the Earth is round, is indicative of God.

I'm not saying it's the god of the ridiculous Bible.

But there simply had to be a creative force that put it together.

it is not possible for me to believe otherwise.

I'll respect that it's just as difficult for you to believe what I believe, and respect your views

 

[tempogain]

But there simply had to be a creative force that put it together.

it is not possible for me to believe otherwise.

I'll respect that it's just as difficult for you to believe what I believe, and respect your views

Cheers, and likewise! I'll stand on what I've already said. I'm going to have a coffee--now that I think of it, you may just have something Have a good one.

 

[Altfish]

I just know I would have to try really really hard to be an atheist. actually, I think it would be impossible for me to be an atheist without a miracle

Atheists don't believe in miracles.

 

[Altfish]

False.

What do you believe that atheists have to explain?
Atheists are quite satisfied with the answer, "We don't know" especially when it is followed by, "But we are looking into it".

 

[Jumi]

Atheists don't believe in miracles.

Some atheists might disagree with that.

What do you believe that atheists have to explain?

There is no duty to explain anything. Just a common courtesy.

Atheists are quite satisfied with the answer, "We don't know" especially when it is followed by, "But we are looking into it".

I believe everyone willing to debate should try to explain their viewpoints. See, what you said made things more clear already.

 

[Jesster]

I don't have to try to be an atheist. It's just a result of my skepticism and critical thinking. If anything came along that convinced me otherwise, I'd change my beliefs.

Also, atheism does not rely on evolution being true. You seem to have misunderstood how evolution works though.

 

[Altfish]

Some atheists might disagree with that.

99.9% wouldn't

There is no duty to explain anything. Just a common courtesy.

But it is also common courtesy to clarify what it is you want explaining.

I believe everyone willing to debate should try to explain their viewpoints. See, what you said made things more clear already.

Perhaps you should follow your own guidelines