lukethethird
unknown member
How important are facts within your religious beliefs?
Facts???
Facts???
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Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whaever books had been published about the Bahai faitrh at that time and I read the Writings of Bahaulah and abdul-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
Facts are the most important.For some of us our religious beliefs and founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
Does God exist? Does God help those that love him and obey him? If, in fact, God did help the Israelites cross the sea and escape the Egyptian army, then God does exist and he does help his people. But if the story is just a myth then what? A mythical God helped his people in a mythical story? But no, Baha'is are saying the stories about what God has done are myth but God is real? He's just invisible and unknowable, so whatever Baha'u'llah says about him becomes "facts". And those people that believe the Bible stories as "facts" are mistaken? But, we've talked about this before. I think that people wrote the stories as if they were facts to get people to believe and obey in an invisible God that rewards those that obey him and punishes those that disobey him.The story of the parting of the Red Sea was probably a myth and there is no evidence to support it actually happened. Baha’i belief allows for the possibility that some of the miracles recorded in the Bible actually happened. However what the stories teach us about God, ourselves and our relationship with Him is far more important than whether or not a particular miracle happened.
Believing in virgin births and believing all or most of the words of Paul and Jesus in the New Testament to be historical are examples of belief in religious myths.Baha’is are free to investigate the truth for themselves and not blindly follow religious teachings because that’s what our ancestors believed or the church teaches.
Paul and Jesus both refer to stories in the Hebrew Bible but that doesn’t make them literally true. There are of course miracles Baha’is do believe in such as the Virgin birth but it is readily accepted there is no proof that miracle happened. ‘Abdul-Baha explains that Christ’s greatness can’t be based on Him not having a father, for Adam having neither mother nor father would be greater than Christ.
For some of us our religious beliefs are founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
Because Bahais don't believe them that doesn't make them false either.
Exactly. As I said, Bahais can pick and choose what they will dismiss as myth, and accept as miracles.
So my question was, how do you determine what is a miracle from God, as opposed to myth?
Am I correct then in saying faith in what one wants to believe? How is that faith?Of course. What is true for a Baha’i may be false to a JW. What is true for a JW may be false for a Baha’i.
My beliefs are not dependent on whether or not an event recorded in the Bible literally happened.
How would I investigate? Examining the text itself recording the miracle. Having access to extra biblical sources is invaluable. None of us were there witnessing the events recorded. Allowing for an All Powerful God, it is impossible to know for certain. It is a matter of faith.
If a person is going to believe in something and/or place their trust in Someone then I think truth and facts are important. Especially, when it pertains to something as critical as one’s eternal destiny.For some of us our religious beliefs are founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
Does God exist?
Does God help those that love him and obey him?
If, in fact, God did help the Israelites cross the sea and escape the Egyptian army, then God does exist and he does help his people. But if the story is just a myth then what?
A mythical God helped his people in a mythical story?
But no, Baha'is are saying the stories about what God has done are myth but God is real?
He's just invisible and unknowable, so whatever Baha'u'llah says about him becomes "facts". b
But, we've talked about this before. I think that people wrote the stories as if they were facts to get people to believe and obey in an invisible God that rewards those that obey him and punishes those that disobey him.
Baha'is try to, somehow, make God involved in the writing. They try and make it seem like God influenced or "inspired" the writers to write allegorical stories. So, even though, they sounded like historical "facts", they weren't. They were just fictional stories meant to teach a spiritual lesson or something.
If that is not right, could you clarify what Baha'is really believe about those "mythical", fictional Bible stories... like the parting of the sea?
Cause, as you know, I don't think that if they were meant to be taken allegorical, and actually, in the beginning, taken allegorically, it would have gotten the people to believe in God and fear him enough to follow and obey his laws and rules.
CG Didymus" said:If, in fact, God did help the Israelites cross the sea and escape the Egyptian army, then God does exist and he does help his people. But if the story is just a myth then what?
Did it not matter to Jesus and his apostles? Why did it matter to them? Why should it not matter to us?adrian009 said:Why does it matter so much?
Am I correct then in saying faith in what one wants to believe?
Did not the same God of the Israelites perform miracles in behalf of the Israelites? Why are these myths to Bahai, and not miracles by God?
Why lack faith in those? How do they differ to the miracle of Jesus' birth?
It seems to me, Bahais are picking and choosing, from the Bible, what they want to believe, and what they don't want to believe, and it makes me suspicious that it has to do with the influence of the worldly wise, and fear of being ridiculed for their beliefs.
For example, Moses is not accepted as a historical figure, by most scholars, but Jesus is. So I think that influences the Bahais view on miracles associated with Moses - they are happy to dismiss these as myth, and miracles associated with Jesus - they can accept those.
You say it's faith. It has nothing to do with facts then. Or faith comes in where facts are lacking?
Bahais imo, use faith in cases where it favors them - i.e. when it doesn't conflict with Bahaullah.
I believe facts are very important in the one true faith,
It has been shown repeatedly that the Bible contains many historical facts.
As one example, the attack on the cities of Judah, and the attempt to take Jerusalem, during the rule of Hezekiah have been confirmed.
Why Sennacherib failed to take Jerusalem, and retreated to his land, is recorded as a fact, in the Bible.
People don't have to believe the Biblical account. That's up to them.
All of the Bible accounts don't need to be confirmed.
Miracles do not make the account less reliable.
What's puzzling me, is that persons will say they believe in a supernatural almighty God, and yet not accept miracles in the time of the nation of Israel - the only nation associated with the true God, in the Tanakh, and accept other miracles - none of which they personally witnessed, and thus no different to earlier miracles.
So it seems as I said above. I believe it's a matter of influence.
Therefore, the foolish thing of God, are rejected for the wisdom of this world... which is foolishness to God... and to me.
I trust the Bible because it gives evidence of being truthful - including what it says about God and Christ. I believe it is the inspired word of God, based on what I observe to be true in conjunction with what's stated in the Bible.No, that’s not how it is at all. Let me ask you you, why do you have faith in Jesus and the Bible? Is it because that’s what you want to believe in?
I think you have that first statement backwards.You are assuming the story of Moses parting the sea is literally true, therefore it is true to God. It is certainly your faith and belief that these aspects of the Bible are literally true. That is your faith. As we both know there is insufficient evidence to conclusively establish the historicity of the Exalted Personage Moses let alone the parting of the sea. So while I have faith Moses existed and was a Great man in God, I don’t have faith everything written in the Torah about Him is literally true. You appear to have such a faith in biblical literalism.
I don't really understand what you mean by faith in teachings. I do not have faith in teachings. Maybe you mean something other than what I am thinking, but you will have to explain.Make no mistake though, both of our perspectives are because we place faith in a set of teachings. That is very different from fact. Same deal with the Virgin Birth. It is a faith based belief for us both. It just happens to be a place where our respective faiths agree whereas with the Red Sea, we don’t.
Okay, thanks for that.No. Its not about picking and choosing. For Baha’is it is about having faith in Bahá’u’lláh as you have faith in Christ. However my paradigm doesn’t provide all the answers, rather provides the tools where we may discover the answers for ourselves. You appear to be pigeonholing the Baha’is into your paradigm. That is only natural.
Calling a miracle myth is de-emphasizing? I would not like to see what you would call blasphemy or outright rejecting God's works.You appear to have it wrong again about the Baha’is. It not that we accept the Gospel miracles and reject those in the Torah. Rather we de-emphasise miracles including those performed by our twin Prophets. Miracles are seen as being proofs for those who were there, not as proofs that support our beliefs.
You are saying that Jesus' miracles mean nothing. They are unimportant. He might as well not have done them. is that what you are saying?What does it matter if a cripple could walk but it does matter that through the Teachings of Christ multitudes can walk the spiritual path. The blind can see the true nature of Christ. Like the loaves and fishes and wine, those who hunger and thirst have in Christ have plenty of spiritual sustenance through the Word of God.
John 5:39-47As your beliefs conform to your understanding of the Bible, so too does the Baha’i’s Faith eventually conform to how we understand Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings. But that is faith for us both, not facts.
I have no doubt the Bible provides useful historical information that is confirmed by science. It is a huge leap of faith to assume everything in it is literally true.
Why does it matter so much to you?
I don't view them with suspicion at all. Suspicion is not the correct word,Of course. You are a JW who views all other religions within Christendom and beyond with suspicion. That appears neither wise nor taught by God. However I am a Baha’i who tries to look for the good in all, even the JWs. Peace.
For some of us our religious beliefs are founded on historical characters who we can attribute coherent teachings and know of their lives. For others our beliefs have little if anything that can be attributed as historically true, yet we believe. Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
If, in fact, God did help the Israelites cross the sea and escape the Egyptian army, then God does exist and he does help his people. But if the story is just a myth then what? A mythical God helped his people in a mythical story?
Did not the same God of the Israelites perform miracles in behalf of the Israelites? Why are these myths to Bahai, and not miracles by God?
Why lack faith in those? How do they differ to the miracle of Jesus' birth?
Why would it matter? If it is not a "fact" that God parted the seas, then we should look at the Bible as a book of myth. Which would include the God that is presented in those mythical stories. Did he create the world in 6 days? No. That's a myth. Did he walk in the garden with Adam? No. That's a myth. Did he flood the entire world? No. That's a myth and so on. If God didn't do those things then that God is not real. But what the Baha'i Faith does is make God real, just not the Bible stories about God. Then Baha'is make Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses real, and not only real but "manifestations" of God. Yet, the Bible stories about these people are not "factual".Why does it matter so much?
Problem is that all Christians and Jews do not believe these stories are The Literal Truth. In fact, most don't, so they are on the same page as the Baha'is..So making these stories fictional is important to Baha'is, because then there is a way out of taking the Bible literally and still saying it is "The Truth". But making them fiction makes Christians and Jews who take the Bible as "fact" become spiritual idiots for taking the Bible as The Literal Truth.
And how'd that spiritual journey go for them? Oh yeah, all but a few died while wandering in the wilderness. Then, the next generation is the one that goes in and kills all the people, including woman and children, in some of the cities they conquered. I still think that thousands of years ago, it makes more sense to me, that if those things didn't really happen, they were just plain old myths and legends. The big lesson... Obey God or he's gonna get you.Specifically in regards the parting of the sea:
The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption. The Egyptian History recorded even trifling events. Had such a wonderful thing happened as the partings of the physical sea it would also have been recorded. – Daily Lessons Received at ‘Akka, p. 45.
The Trouble with Miracles
How about the Jews 2000 or 3000 years ago? How about Christians even a few hundred years ago? Today, things are different. Probably Darwin had a big influence on people being able to more openly question the "fact" that the Bible is the Truth. Reformed Jews and liberal Christians are fine with me. My only problem with the Baha'i Faith is that they say the stories are fictional and not to be taken literally, whereas I think the stories were most likely fiction and definitely written to be taken literally.Problem is that all Christians and Jews do not believe these stories are The Literal Truth. In fact, most don't, so they are on the same page as the Baha'is..