How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

[Deeje]

You raise some interesting questions.....

Even when people build their beliefs out of what they think is solid bricks or stone, once a person starts questioning and disbelieving what their religion teaches, it starts tearing at the foundation and the whole thing falls down anyway.

That is only correct if the foundation you are building on has major flaws in it to start with. It has been my experience that most churches have built on a foundation that was already saboutaged. Seeing Christendom as a continuation of what Christ taught is what has taken the church system away from God, IMO, but what Jesus and his apostles taught, was that seeds of false Christianity would be sown so that "wheat" and "weeds" would "grow together" in the world. For some reason, the churches do not see themselves as the "weeds" of Jesus parable. (How confronting!) They have been convinced that the core beliefs that they all share are solid, but on closer inspection, we find that they are all foreign elements that crept in over time and ingrained themselves in "church" thinking.

The weakness of the Christian argument for Satan is how he is a minor player in Judaism. I think it very well could be that Judaism and Christianity got a lot of its beliefs of a Satan from other religions. But then, Christianity made him a major player. They found a few verses that supported their belief in the Jewish Scriptures, but so much of the Satan story seems to be related very much to the stories of underworld gods from other religions.

That is true to an extent, especially when it comes to who the devil is, and why he features at all in any belief system....but he seems to be the bad guy in all of them, along with his minions, the evil spirits, and their own interaction with humankind.

Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis but he is not specifically identified until Revelation. Without being able to identify the devil in Genesis, none of the rest of scripture makes a lick of sense. It sets the stage for a battle between two "gods"....one is the true God and the other is a "wannabe" fake. But the fake god knows that free will makes his mission ( to take worship away from God and get it for himself) very easy. He knows that God could could just eliminate all rebels with a word.....BUT free will means that all intelligent creatures must choose to serve God out of love, not because they are compelled to do so out of fear. So in Eden the battle began for the minds and hearts of both humans and angels.

The interesting part of this battle is the place of truth. One of the contenders can only gain advantage by lying and deception....which is something the true God is not capable of doing. So intelligent creatures must determine the value of truth as opposed to being cajoled by lies and deceptions....and empty promises.

Who needs Jesus if there is no Satan? What did he save them from? Not the devil or hell. And, since Baha'is believe everyone is going on to the next world and to keep drawing closer to God, Jesus, not only didn't save them from hell, but he's not going to judge and cast evil doers into hell... along with Satan.

I think it helps to understand what it is we are being saved from....it isn't hell, because Sheol and hades are words that simply mean the common grave....we are all going there. The devil's connection to the grave is that he caused the first humans to defy their Creator and that action introduced death into human experience. It was never meant to be a part of our life....and why it still feels so wrong.

To deal with this outcome, God just barred the way to the "tree of life" so that humans would reap what the devil had sown. He already warned the humans about the outcome, but the devil lied to them....God never did. Satan has been lying to humans ever since. But God never left humanity without a witness to his existence, his generosity and his love.
He also left us with a written record of his purpose, gradually unfolding his plans for man's redemption from the legacy left by their ancestors and the hope of a restoration of all we lost in the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)

if the Christians are correct, then God, the all-knowing God, created this being, let him turn evil, let him take one third of the angels with, and then, God sends him to Earth? I don't know about that. And for what purpose? To corrupt and torment fallible, gullible people? People that God knows would fall away? That most would not turn to Jesus. Or, even those that do, some would have the wrong belief about Jesus and would therefore be cast into hell with Satan anyway?

God might be all knowing, but he is not the decider of how we choose to live this life. He gave all of his intelligent creatures the right of choice.....but always alerts them to consequences first. God did not create the devil....he abused his free will to create himself as his names suggest.

God has allowed all us to decide for ourselves who and what to believe. God knows, not just our thoughts, but the motivation of our hearts. If we accept things that are not true, then why do we do that? What is there in our own makeup that allows us to fall for the devil's lies? What buttons is he pushing to get us offside with God?

We are all in the situation of qualifying for life in the new world to come, (2 Peter 3:13) once God has dispensed with this world, its ruler and all his supporters....it's like applying for citizenship in another country; we either have the qualifications for entry, or we don't. We are all in one of only two camps, (sheep or goats) according to scripture.....by our choices we place ourselves into one or the other.....there is no fence in the middle to sit on.

When Jesus does the final judging, who is it that gets their marching orders? (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is how I understand these things.

 

[CG Didymus]

You raise some interesting questions.....



That is only correct if the foundation you are building on has major flaws in it to start with. It has been my experience that most churches have built on a foundation that was already saboutaged. Seeing Christendom as a continuation of what Christ taught is what has taken the church system away from God, IMO, but what Jesus and his apostles taught, was that seeds of false Christianity would be sown so that "wheat" and "weeds" would "grow together" in the world. For some reason, the churches do not see themselves as the "weeds" of Jesus parable. (How confronting!) They have been convinced that the core beliefs that they all share are solid, but on closer inspection, we find that they are all foreign elements that crept in over time and ingrained themselves in "church" thinking.



That is true to an extent, especially when it comes to who the devil is, and why he features at all in any belief system....but he seems to be the bad guy in all of them, along with his minions, the evil spirits, and their own interaction with humankind.

Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis but he is not specifically identified until Revelation. Without being able to identify the devil in Genesis, none of the rest of scripture makes a lick of sense. It sets the stage for a battle between two "gods"....one is the true God and the other is a "wannabe" fake. But the fake god knows that free will makes his mission ( to take worship away from God and get it for himself) very easy. He knows that God could could just eliminate all rebels with a word.....BUT free will means that all intelligent creatures must choose to serve God out of love, not because they are compelled to do so out of fear. So in Eden the battle began for the minds and hearts of both humans and angels.

The interesting part of this battle is the place of truth. One of the contenders can only gain advantage by lying and deception....which is something the true God is not capable of doing. So intelligent creatures must determine the value of truth as opposed to being cajoled by lies and deceptions....and empty promises.



I think it helps to understand what it is we are being saved from....it isn't hell, because Sheol and hades are words that simply mean the common grave....we are all going there. The devil's connection to the grave is that he caused the first humans to defy their Creator and that action introduced death into human experience. It was never meant to be a part of our life....and why it still feels so wrong.

To deal with this outcome, God just barred the way to the "tree of life" so that humans would reap what the devil had sown. He already warned the humans about the outcome, but the devil lied to them....God never did. Satan has been lying to humans ever since. But God never left humanity without a witness to his existence, his generosity and his love.
He also left us with a written record of his purpose, gradually unfolding his plans for man's redemption from the legacy left by their ancestors and the hope of a restoration of all we lost in the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)



God might be all knowing, but he is not the decider of how we choose to live this life. He gave all of his intelligent creatures the right of choice.....but always alerts them to consequences first. God did not create the devil....he abused his free will to create himself as his names suggest.

God has allowed all us to decide for ourselves who and what to believe. God knows, not just our thoughts, but the motivation of our hearts. If we accept things that are not true, then why do we do that? What is there in our own makeup that allows us to fall for the devil's lies? What buttons is he pushing to get us offside with God?

We are all in the situation of qualifying for life in the new world to come, (2 Peter 3:13) once God has dispensed with this world, its ruler and all his supporters....it's like applying for citizenship in another country; we either have the qualifications for entry, or we don't. We are all in one of only two camps, (sheep or goats) according to scripture.....by our choices we place ourselves into one or the other.....there is no fence in the middle to sit on.

When Jesus does the final judging, who is it that gets their marching orders? (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is how I understand these things.

Thanks Deeje. Maybe you could help me on another question that came up with Baha'is on another thread. One of the Baha'is pointed out that the word for "lamb" used in Revelation was different than the word used in other places in the NT. They interpreted that as meaning that the lamb in Revelation was different than the other lamb, which was Jesus. The lamb in Revelation, therefore, is not Jesus but they said it is The Bab. Do JW's give an explanation of why the word for lamb in Revelation is different? Thanks

 

[Deeje]

Thanks Deeje. Maybe you could help me on another question that came up with Baha'is on another thread. One of the Baha'is pointed out that the word for "lamb" used in Revelation was different than the word used in other places in the NT. They interpreted that as meaning that the lamb in Revelation was different than the other lamb, which was Jesus. The lamb in Revelation, therefore, is not Jesus but they said it is The Bab. Do JW's give an explanation of why the word for lamb in Revelation is different? Thanks

I love a good bit of research. Leave it with me....I'll get back to you.

 

[nPeace]

Paragraph 5 onwards and the 19th century. Interesting time with intense Messianic expectation world wide in both Christendom and Islam.

William Miller even predicted 1844, the year the Bab declared.
I suppose they missed Him!

Why do you mention William Miller, and his predictions on 1844?
I know what your aim is, but William Miller was Baptist, not JW.

This is what happens when persons try to pick apart documents just to find fault.
We see this happening in the case of critics who just look in the Bible to find fault with it.
In both cases, the critic doesn't understand the message, because they are not reading with a view to understand the points being made.

It's sad, but a reality, we have come to accept.
Our articles do mention people, places, and events, but one needs to read what is being said.

The sense of Messianic expectation was also at the heart of those who founded the JWs such as C.T. Russell. So he did make all these prophecies/predictions and then 'claimed' humility as they were actually from God, not Him! Right. You don't see the irony with that kind of humility!?

Once again, you are making false statements. First you say C. T. Russell founded JWs, now you say "those who founded the JWs".
How many founders were they?

Now you say, "he did make all these prophecies/predictions"...
Sorry Adrian, putting it as mildly as possible... No. He didn't.

Russell neither prophesied, nor predicted anything.
Can you point out one place in any publication of JWs, where Russell or his associates prophesied or predicted anything? No you can't. Seems like a futile "witch-hunt".

When people receive a Watchtower magazine or Bible tract in their hands, they can be sure the material is not the work of any one man. The Watchtower Society as previously known, is no one man show.
There are arrangements in place, in the congregation, so that everything takes place decently and by arrangement. (1 Corinthians 14:40) . . .But let all things take place decently and by arrangement.
1 Corinthians 14:33

Jesus our leader made such appointments. Matthew 24:45
Ephesians 4:11, 12
11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ,
His apostles did the same.
Acts 6:2-4
2 So the twelve called the multitude of the disciples to them and said: “It is not pleasing for us to leave the word of God to distribute [food] to tables. 3 So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business; 4 but we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”

All prophecies, and predictions were made by prophets and Jesus' apostles, who were given revelation.
Those who read these prophecies try to discern their meaning and application, and keep in expectations of them.
JWs have acknowledged that some prophecies may not be discerned until after their fulfillment.
*** w11 12/1 p. 13 Who Can Interpret Prophecy? ***
Other prophecies are fully understood by servants of God only after their fulfillment. Many events in Jesus’ life had been prophesied centuries before his birth, but this was not fully understood by his disciples until after his resurrection. (Psalm 22:18; 34:20; John 19:24, 36)

This is an article from the source. If you take a look at it, please read it to get what it is saying.

I do agree with the rejection of the Trinity doctrine but then Muhammad had rejected this doctrine in the 7th century AD over 1260 years beforehand...isn't that ironic.

The Trinity was never taught by any of the Hebrews, which Jesus and his followers quoted as God's work, so I'm not getting your point here.
Are you saying you agree because Muhammad agreed, or because it is what the Bible teaches?

So with this spirit of messianic expectation that pervaded the planet (remember Islam were expecting the Qa'im or Mahdi), C.T. Russell attracted a following of like minded people who knew something was in the ether but couldn't quite put their finger on it.

What?
Russell had no following. He had associates.
If persons followed him, they probably later created a following of their own, because they had the wrong idea, and missed the point of Jesus' words.
Matthew 23:8-12
8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Unfortunately he dispensed with a core Christian belief in a soul that carries on beyond this world. Big mistake as our actions have repercussions in the next work whether we believe it or not. Then he came up with this preposterous interpretation based on Revelation 14:1 that only 144,000 annointed ones get to hang out with Jesus. No wonder the other Christian churches hate the JWs. That must get a few faithful Christians fired up lol. Do you need to be a JW to be one of these 144,000?

I really would like if you stopped saying he, but I suppose if you want to stay misinformed, nothing I say will change that.

The truth about the soul as taught in the Bible, by the Hebrews, was apparently rejected by many, so I understand why you don't agree with it.
What is the origin of the teaching that the human soul is invisible and immortal?
The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.
In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [neʹphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Another misunderstanding people have is with what the Bible teaches on the firstfruits of God.
This is an example of what causes people to leave what the Bible says, and go in search of other teachings.
2 Timothy 4:3, 4
3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.
I so like how the scriptures put these. These are truly divine revelations.

It is the scriptures that say 144,000 will be rulers, and priest with Christ.
JWs accept that. They also understand it, and many who are not JWs, but examine the scriptures in light of what it says, also come to understand how that fits into God's purpose.

No faithful Christian gets fired up about this.
Why would they, unless perhaps they don't understand or accept what evidently seems to be a scriptural teaching?

I suppose I can take or leave my pagan holidays but had always thought the ressurection of Christ and the birth of our Lord Jesus to be events worth commerating if not celebrating. That must have annoyed a few more Christians if they hadn't twigged as to the implications of your 144,000 prophecy (I mean prediction).

Yes, we can follow our owns thoughts, instead of God's thoughts, which we get from studying his word, but it takes humility to allow God's word - which is a product of holy spirit - to guide us.

The 144,000 is a prediction Adrian?
Like I said, I see your aim, but it is a futile quest imo.
If you really want to know about JWs, this is not the proper way to go about doing so.

Regarding Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is the one who judges between the sheep and the goats, not you.

I realized you were bashing, but didn't notice it was this bad, because I was sleepy at the time I went through this post, and had missed some of this... but man, this is the worst bashing on a religion, I have ever read.

Maybe, you don't like to hear that the scriptures condemn all religion not following the teachings of Christ, and the JWs believe they are his true followers.
However, I don't see that as reason to go on a rampage. This thread gave me the impression of a wild man tearing through a building, and digging up and flinging and scattering things all over the place.
Well, maybe you felt like Jesus did, at those religious leaders of his day.
People seem to have gotten this image in their mind. LOL

Wait what? Jesus? Condemning religious leaders? How dare he? Are we not all one? Do we not all read the same word? What makes him better than us? What gives him authority to refer to us as offspring of vipers?
Matthew 23:33 "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? ..."

So, I don't mind if you think JWs are wrong, but please, going on a wild witch-hunt, and using misinformation doesn't seem to accomplish anything, unless it made you feel satisfied.
I would think it would be better to use the Bible to show why we believe a teaching is wrong, wouldn't you agree?

Is the 144,000 literal?
The Bible’s Message - An Overview

 

[nPeace]

Scriptures are of no benefit if they are not understood or twisted to suit an agenda.

I couldn't have put it any better.

The JWs have made numerous predictions/prophecies that have failed as clearly demonstrated.

prophecy
noun, plural proph·e·cies.
the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.
a divinely inspired utterance or revelation:

Propheteia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
Propheteia
Definition
prophecy
a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
NAS Word Usage - Total: 19

Strongs's #4394: propheteia - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

No JW has ever claimed to prophecy, or make predictions.
They simply expected events that did not fit their expectations.
If you want to say otherwise, to give you something of which to make accusations, it's surely your prerogative.
Please take into consideration what a prophet is, and what prophesying means, as defined above, as well as below.

Prophecy
A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a god. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge). All known ancient cultures had prophets who delivered prophecies.

Are you thinking of something else?
The article continues... (It even has the Bahai's - is their definition given here accurate?)
Definitions
Maimonides suggested that "prophecy is, in truth and reality, an emanation sent forth by Divine Being through the medium of the Active Intellect, in the first instance to man's rational faculty, and then to his imaginative faculty."
The former closely relates to the definition by Al-Fârâbî who developed the theory of prophecy in Islam.

Bahá'í Faith
Main article: Bahá'í prophecies
In 1863, Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to have been the promised messianic figure of all previous religions, and a Manifestation of God, a type of prophet in the Bahá'í writings that serves as intermediary between the divine and humanity and who speaks with the voice of a god.
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, while being imprisoned in the Siyah-Chal in Iran, he underwent a series of mystical experiences including having a vision of the Maid of Heaven who told him of his divine mission, and the promise of divine assistance; In Bahá'í belief, the Maid of Heaven is a representation of the divine.

That's not JWs.
Now that we are here though...
I don't have to tell you about the Manifestation of God, as taught by Bahaullah, and accepted by Bahai.

What difference do you see between this...
In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God...
Also see footnote*

...and this...
Jesus Christ said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Therefore, those who follow Jesus example and teachings, are his true followers, and true Christians, and all others are false.
Matthew 7:13-23; 1 John 4:4-6

Don't you think that if "Christians" get upset with JWs for making the latter statements, there would be religious people who would be upset with Bahais for teaching the former?

The only difference I see, is that the latter sticks to what the Bible teaches, while the former doesn't.

*Footnote
How would "Christians" who believe the Bible feel about this?
If any of this information is incorrect, I sincerely apologize, and ask that you please state the corrections.
Bahá'ís believe that God expresses [his] will at all times and in many ways, including through a series of divine messengers referred to as Manifestations of God. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world.

The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity. In the station of divinity, they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; in the station of humanity, they show the physical qualities of common man.

Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that at one extreme the Manifestations of God are humble servants of God and at the other extreme they claim to speak with the voice of God, and manifest his attributes to humanity. They may at times emphasize their humanity, and at other times proclaim their divinity.
The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.

Purpose
The purpose of the Manifestation of God, according to Bahá'í belief, is to educate humanity. The Manifestations of God are seen as divine educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing his will. In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world. Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.

Bahá'u'lláh used the term revelation to describe the phenomena that occurs each time a Manifestation of God appears; he stated that the writings of the Manifestation of God represent the infallible word of God, and because the writings remain after the earthly life of the Manifestation they are a very important part of revelation.

`Abdu'l-Bahá has stated that from time to time an educator will come to teach humanity, and without these teachings humanity would be overcome by such emotions and attitudes as anger, jealousy and hatred.
[Interestingly the world seems to be more hate filled than before, ad increasingly getting worst, as is evident.]

In Bahá'í belief, all of the Manifestations of God are from the same God and have the same spiritual and metaphysical nature, and that there is absolute equality among them. The differences between the various Manifestations of God and their teachings, Bahá'u'lláh explained, are due to the varying needs and capacities of the civilization in which they appeared, and not due to any differences in their level of importance or nature.
The Manifestations of God are taught to be "one and the same", and in their relationship to one another have both the station of unity and the station of distinction.

There is no definitive list of Manifestations of God, but Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá referred to several personages as Manifestations; they include Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Bahá'u'lláh, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of periods or "dispensations", where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.

Now how mad do you think "Christians" are about this, especially after you bash them like this?

That of course is why Christianity is so hopelessly divided. One group invents an interpretation of their own imagination. Another group comes along and opposes it with more false theology. Soon Christianity is filled with such confusion and discord that its light is completely obscured.

How many "Chrristians" accept that Muhammad, or Buddha, are in harmony with Christ? How many Muslim do you think welcome the idea of "Chrisian" teachings of the Trinity, and the resurrection of Christ, and his claim as God's son?
Might that be the reason some Muslim groups consider Bahai as an enemy deserving death?

I referred to the scripture twice 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Of course when this was written, the apostle Paul did not give a list of unbelievers. There was no need, because the Christians understood what an unbeliever is.
Evidently it has everything to do with interfaith... period.

 

[nPeace]

Christian mission - Wikipedia
Timeline of Christian missions - Wikipedia
I don't see the JWs playing an important part of the missionary work of Christians do you?
I do see JWs going door ot door in countries where Christianity is well established and trying to convince people on the doorstep that the JWs have the right version of Christianity and trying to convert.

According to the article, it says...

A Christian mission is an organized effort to spread Christianity.
I don't recall saying anything about spreading Christianity. Obviously you missed what I said.
I agreed with you that that kind of Christianity is divided, because it's apostate - it has deviated from the teachings of Jesus Christ, and first century Christians.

Recall, I spoke not of spreading Christianity, but spreading the Gospel/good news of God's kingdom - the message Jesus preached, and commissioned his followers to preach, and he also prophesied that it will be preached until the end.

First things first and you need to ask yourself why there is such a different emphasis on Satan, angels and demons in the NT compared to the Tanakh. Its not just Jesus but the gospel writers too. The most likely explanation links cultural influences on Judiasm through the exile period including the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and then Romans. It is interesting that if we consider Isaiah 44:28 and Isaiah 45:1we have mention of King Cyrus as the annointed one. Who was King Cyrus?

Sorry, but I fail to see your point here. Are you not arguing against your philosophy?

 

[Deeje]

Thanks Deeje. Maybe you could help me on another question that came up with Baha'is on another thread. One of the Baha'is pointed out that the word for "lamb" used in Revelation was different than the word used in other places in the NT. They interpreted that as meaning that the lamb in Revelation was different than the other lamb, which was Jesus. The lamb in Revelation, therefore, is not Jesus but they said it is The Bab. Do JW's give an explanation of why the word for lamb in Revelation is different? Thanks

OK...from what I can ascertain from Strongs Concordance, they are right, it is a different word...but not too different.

The word used in John 1:29; 36, as well as Acts 8:32 and 1 Peter 1:19 is "amnos" (G286) and it means a "lamb"...not of any particular age. A lamb can be up to 12 months old.
But the word used in Revelation 5:6 is "arnion" which means a baby lamb. It is "diminutive" indicating a small sheep. It was used by Jesus to Peter when he said to feed his "little lambs". (John 21:15-17) Diminutives are often used to indicate affection and familiarity.

Another example is the expression used by Jesus when he said to the Greek woman: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:21-26; Mark 7:26) Among the Greeks and Romans, the dog was often a beloved pet that lived in its owner’s house and played with the children. So the expression “little dogs” might have called to mind a warm, endearing picture. The Greek woman picked up on Jesus’ words and replied: “Yes, Lord, but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” Jesus commended her faith and healed the woman’s daughter.—Matthew 15:27, 28.

Can't see how Bahia's twist "little lamb" to accommodate their prophets....

 

[oldbadger]

..............................Baha'is on another thread. ..........The lamb in Revelation, therefore, is not Jesus but they said it is The Bab..............................

The Bab...... a Lamb........
Oh my......... !

 

[loverofhumanity]

Satan to me is just symbolic language speaking about our lower self which the superstitious have created into a mythical monster.

As it has been written by the Pen of the Almighty:

“People for the most part delight in superstitions. They regard a single drop of the sea of delusion as preferable to an ocean of certitude”

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you mention William Miller, and his predictions on 1844?
I know what your aim is, but William Miller was Baptist, not JW.

This is what happens when persons try to pick apart documents just to find fault.
We see this happening in the case of critics who just look in the Bible to find fault with it.
In both cases, the critic doesn't understand the message, because they are not reading with a view to understand the points being made.

It's sad, but a reality, we have come to accept.
Our articles do mention people, places, and events, but one needs to read what is being said.

I never said William Miller was a JW. He started a movement known as the Millerites. My point was the sense of Messianic expectation during the nineteenth century. Both our faiths can trace our origins to this period in history and have similar concerns with prophtic fulfilment as with the Millerites.

Once again, you are making false statements. First you say C. T. Russell founded JWs, now you say "those who founded the JWs".
How many founders were they?

Here is what your website says:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witn...b-d501b97a4acc&insight[search_result_index]=0

Sounds like the JWs are downplaying the role C T Russell. I don't accept Jesus founded the JWs. The suggestion is preposterous as your sect began over 1900 years after Christ was crucified. On the other hand the Catholics can make a much more compelling case in regards the primacy of Peter (Matthew 16:18).

So rather than accept what your website says, because it has no historic or scriptural basis, I'm inclined to listen to independant groups as well as other Christin organisations.

Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and a former President of the Society, even referred to the Christian concept of God as, “the devil himself.” The God of the Watchtower is not the biblical God and is therefore not capable of saving people from their sins.

What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

Charles Taze Russell (February 16, 1852 – October 31, 1916), or Pastor Russell, was an American Christian restorationist minister from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and founder of what is now known as the Bible Student movement. After his death, Jehovah's Witnesses and numerous independent Bible Student groups developed from this base.

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

Though the Witnesses claim to have existed for some six thousand years or more, less romantic and more objective historians trace their origin to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, about the year 1872. It was in this year that Charles Taze Russell (“Pastor Russell”), a Congregationalist layman, came to the many of the conclusions that have remained ever after the basic Witness dogmas. Russell published his conclusions in a series entitled Studies in the Scriptures which gained him a large reading public and many followers. The Watchtower, the now quite famous publication of the group whose first leader he was, began to appear in 1879.

A Catholic Critique of Jehovah's Witnesses

Now you say, "he did make all these prophecies/predictions"...
Sorry Adrian, putting it as mildly as possible... No. He didn't.

I've already demonstrated multiple predictions and prophecies made by C.T.Russell and the watchtower publication.

How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

Once again from various sources:

Despite a track record of repeated false prophecies, a cultic isolation of their own people, and a flagrant mistranslation of the Bible to justify their own theology, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society continues to gain unsuspecting converts every year.

What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

After his death, the Watch Tower said that he had been made "ruler of all the Lord's goods".[23]

Charles Taze Russell - Wikipedia

All prophecies, and predictions were made by prophets and Jesus' apostles, who were given revelation.
Those who read these prophecies try to discern their meaning and application, and keep in expectations of them.
JWs have acknowledged that some prophecies may not be discerned until after their fulfillment.
*** w11 12/1 p. 13 Who Can Interpret Prophecy? ***
Other prophecies are fully understood by servants of God only after their fulfillment. Many events in Jesus’ life had been prophesied centuries before his birth, but this was not fully understood by his disciples until after his resurrection. (Psalm 22:18; 34:20; John 19:24, 36)

This is an article from the source. If you take a look at it, please read it to get what it is saying.

So we can safely dispense with the JWs 'opinions' about the future of the world based on their unique interpretation as the work of men and nothing more.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Trinity was never taught by any of the Hebrews, which Jesus and his followers quoted as God's work, so I'm not getting your point here.
Are you saying you agree because Muhammad agreed, or because it is what the Bible teaches?

If you go back and read my post

How important is Satan in your faith or worldview?

I demonstrated with clear reference to the Quran, that Muhammad rejected the doctrine of the Trinity in the 7th century AD. The doctrine of the Trinity arose out of the Nicene Creed established in the 4th century AD.

The truth about the soul as taught in the Bible, by the Hebrews, was apparently rejected by many, so I understand why you don't agree with it.
What is the origin of the teaching that the human soul is invisible and immortal?
The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.
In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [neʹphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Another misunderstanding people have is with what the Bible teaches on the firstfruits of God.
This is an example of what causes people to leave what the Bible says, and go in search of other teachings.
2 Timothy 4:3, 4
3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.
I so like how the scriptures put these. These are truly divine revelations.

I accept what almost all the other denominations of Christianity say about the existence of the soul.

It is the scriptures that say 144,000 will be rulers, and priest with Christ.
JWs accept that. They also understand it, and many who are not JWs, but examine the scriptures in light of what it says, also come to understand how that fits into God's purpose.

No faithful Christian gets fired up about this.
Why would they, unless perhaps they don't understand or accept what evidently seems to be a scriptural teaching?

No faithful Christian agrees with the JW 144,000 belief.

Yes, we can follow our owns thoughts, instead of God's thoughts, which we get from studying his word, but it takes humility to allow God's word - which is a product of holy spirit - to guide us.

You seem to be saying that the people who started the JWs and have been making predictions about the future are ordinary men, now they are guided by the Holy Spirit. If they were guided by the Holy Spirit and making predictions about the future that sounds like the gift of prophesy to me (1 Corinthians 14:1).

Regarding Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is the one who judges between the sheep and the goats, not you.

I realized you were bashing, but didn't notice it was this bad, because I was sleepy at the time I went through this post, and had missed some of this... but man, this is the worst bashing on a religion, I have ever read.

Maybe, you don't like to hear that the scriptures condemn all religion not following the teachings of Christ, and the JWs believe they are his true followers.
However, I don't see that as reason to go on a rampage. This thread gave me the impression of a wild man tearing through a building, and digging up and flinging and scattering things all over the place.
Well, maybe you felt like Jesus did, at those religious leaders of his day.
People seem to have gotten this image in their mind. LOL

I thought it was the JWs claiming all other religions apart from their own was corrupt and under the Devil's dominion?

Since its inception, the Watchtower has denied the biblical teaching of the triune God (one Being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal Persons) and gone so far as to say that the God of Christianity is a satanic counterfeit. Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and a former President of the Society, even referred to the Christian concept of God as, “the devil himself.” The God of the Watchtower is not the biblical God and is therefore not capable of saving people from their sins.

What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

That seems consistent with what another JW is saying here about the Catholic Church.

I believe that Christendom's church leaders mirrored the religious leaders of Judaism in Jesus' day.

He said of them...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves." (Matthew 23:13-15)

If the message they took to the world was cultivating "weeds" instead of "wheat", then I'm afraid that they sowed the wrong seeds and did not benefit the cause of Christianity at all. They just spread the devil's lies. Sorry, I give them no credit.

Is no religion better than religion?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wait what? Jesus? Condemning religious leaders? How dare he? Are we not all one? Do we not all read the same word? What makes him better than us? What gives him authority to refer to us as offspring of vipers?
Matthew 23:33 "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? ..."

And you are providing the same line of reasoning here. If Jesus condemned the Pharisees, the JWs have the right to condemn the rest of the Christianity...presumably because you are humble and guided by the Holy Spirit.

So, I don't mind if you think JWs are wrong, but please, going on a wild witch-hunt, and using misinformation doesn't seem to accomplish anything, unless it made you feel satisfied.
I would think it would be better to use the Bible to show why we believe a teaching is wrong, wouldn't you agree?

The Bible has been used to justify abominable things. It can be used for one religious group to 'bash' another. It does not befit the dignitiy and respect for the Bible to be used in such a manner.

Bahá'í Faith
Main article: Bahá'í prophecies
In 1863, Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to have been the promised messianic figure of all previous religions, and a Manifestation of God, a type of prophet in the Bahá'í writings that serves as intermediary between the divine and humanity and who speaks with the voice of a god.
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, while being imprisoned in the Siyah-Chal in Iran, he underwent a series of mystical experiences including having a vision of the Maid of Heaven who told him of his divine mission, and the promise of divine assistance; In Bahá'í belief, the Maid of Heaven is a representation of the divine.

That's not JWs.
Now that we are here though...
I don't have to tell you about the Manifestation of God, as taught by Bahaullah, and accepted by Bahai.

What difference do you see between this...
In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God...
Also see footnote*

The Manifestations of God are like perfect mirrors reflecting God. The Sun is not the mirror and the mirror is not the sun. Yet if the sun were to be reflected through the mirror and say "I am God", then the mirror speaks the truth. If the mirror were to say, I am a man like you he speaks the truth.

..and this...
Jesus Christ said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Therefore, those who follow Jesus example and teachings, are his true followers, and true Christians, and all others are false.
Matthew 7:13-23; 1 John 4:4-6

John 14:6 needs to be seen in the light of the historic and scriptural context. Jesus was comforting His disciples after informing them of His imminent martyrdom. He was reminding His disciples (who were all Jewish) that He was the promised One in the Hebrew Bible. The statement has nothing to do with religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.

Don't you think that if "Christians" get upset with JWs for making the latter statements, there would be religious people who would be upset with Bahais for teaching the former?

Obviously Baha'u'llah's claim to be the Manifestation of God for this day and fulfil prophecies in the Bible in regards being Christ Returned will not be well received by many. Baha'u'llah spent 40 years of His life in prison and in exile to bring this Message to humanity. The Bab was executed by a militia of His countrymen. Thousands of the early Baha'is were put to death as they tried in vain to suppress the light of the Baha'i Revelation.

The Baha'is continue to be persecuted in Muslim countries.

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

As the Baha'i Faith becomes more prominent, many Christians will oppose the Baha'is.That is an inevitability.

How many "Chrristians" accept that Muhammad, or Buddha, are in harmony with Christ? How many Muslim do you think welcome the idea of "Chrisian" teachings of the Trinity, and the resurrection of Christ, and his claim as God's son?
Might that be the reason some Muslim groups consider Bahai as an enemy deserving death?

To be clear, Baha'is do not believe Jesus was literally resurrected, do not believe in the Trinity, nor God had a physical son.

When Jesus the Christ brought a New Covenant, the religious leaders of the day and His own people opposed Him.

I referred to the scripture twice 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Of course when this was written, the apostle Paul did not give a list of unbelievers. There was no need, because the Christians understood what an unbeliever is.
Evidently it has everything to do with interfaith... period.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

According to the article, it says...

A Christian mission is an organized effort to spread Christianity.
I don't recall saying anything about spreading Christianity. Obviously you missed what I said.
I agreed with you that that kind of Christianity is divided, because it's apostate - it has deviated from the teachings of Jesus Christ, and first century Christians.

Recall, I spoke not of spreading Christianity, but spreading the Gospel/good news of God's kingdom - the message Jesus preached, and commissioned his followers to preach, and he also prophesied that it will be preached until the end.

Practically all nations had the gospel preached to them by the mid-19th century. The second half the 19th century was mostly consolidation work, not teaching new nations the gospel.

Christian mission - Wikipedia

Baha'is believe the end of the Christian dispensation ended in 1844 with the proclamation of the Bab.

Sorry, but I fail to see your point here. Are you not arguing against your philosophy?

My purpose is to highlight how the Persians influenced the development of Christianity.

The Influence of Persian Religion on Christianity

 

[oldbadger]

As it has been written by the Pen of the Almighty:
“People for the most part delight in superstitions. They regard a single drop of the sea of delusion as preferable to an ocean of certitude”
Bahá’u’lláh

....and in another member's post:-

In 1863, Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to have been the promised messianic figure of all previous religions, and a Manifestation of God, .....................
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, while being imprisoned in the Siyah-Chal in Iran, he underwent a series of mystical experiences including having a vision of the Maid of Heaven who told him of his divine mission,.................

Ah, yes......... I see......

 

[loverofhumanity]

I couldn't have put it any better.


prophecy
noun, plural proph·e·cies.
the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.
a divinely inspired utterance or revelation:

Propheteia - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
Propheteia
Definition
prophecy
a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
NAS Word Usage - Total: 19

Strongs's #4394: propheteia - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

No JW has ever claimed to prophecy, or make predictions.
They simply expected events that did not fit their expectations.
If you want to say otherwise, to give you something of which to make accusations, it's surely your prerogative.
Please take into consideration what a prophet is, and what prophesying means, as defined above, as well as below.

Prophecy
A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a god. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of divine will concerning the prophet's social world and events to come (compare divine knowledge). All known ancient cultures had prophets who delivered prophecies.

Are you thinking of something else?
The article continues... (It even has the Bahai's - is their definition given here accurate?)
Definitions
Maimonides suggested that "prophecy is, in truth and reality, an emanation sent forth by Divine Being through the medium of the Active Intellect, in the first instance to man's rational faculty, and then to his imaginative faculty."
The former closely relates to the definition by Al-Fârâbî who developed the theory of prophecy in Islam.

Bahá'í Faith
Main article: Bahá'í prophecies
In 1863, Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to have been the promised messianic figure of all previous religions, and a Manifestation of God, a type of prophet in the Bahá'í writings that serves as intermediary between the divine and humanity and who speaks with the voice of a god.
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, while being imprisoned in the Siyah-Chal in Iran, he underwent a series of mystical experiences including having a vision of the Maid of Heaven who told him of his divine mission, and the promise of divine assistance; In Bahá'í belief, the Maid of Heaven is a representation of the divine.

That's not JWs.
Now that we are here though...
I don't have to tell you about the Manifestation of God, as taught by Bahaullah, and accepted by Bahai.

What difference do you see between this...
In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God...
Also see footnote*

...and this...
Jesus Christ said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Therefore, those who follow Jesus example and teachings, are his true followers, and true Christians, and all others are false.
Matthew 7:13-23; 1 John 4:4-6

Don't you think that if "Christians" get upset with JWs for making the latter statements, there would be religious people who would be upset with Bahais for teaching the former?

The only difference I see, is that the latter sticks to what the Bible teaches, while the former doesn't.

*Footnote
How would "Christians" who believe the Bible feel about this?
If any of this information is incorrect, I sincerely apologize, and ask that you please state the corrections.
Bahá'ís believe that God expresses [his] will at all times and in many ways, including through a series of divine messengers referred to as Manifestations of God. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world.

The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity. In the station of divinity, they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; in the station of humanity, they show the physical qualities of common man.

Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, explained that at one extreme the Manifestations of God are humble servants of God and at the other extreme they claim to speak with the voice of God, and manifest his attributes to humanity. They may at times emphasize their humanity, and at other times proclaim their divinity.
The Manifestations of God are believed to possess capacities that do not exist in humans, and this difference is not a difference in degree but a difference in kind. The Manifestations of God are not seen to be simply great thinkers or philosophers who have a better understanding than others, but that, by their nature, they are inherently superior to the average human.

Purpose
The purpose of the Manifestation of God, according to Bahá'í belief, is to educate humanity. The Manifestations of God are seen as divine educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing his will. In expressing God's intent, the Manifestations of God are seen to establish religion in the world. Each brings a book and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.

Bahá'u'lláh used the term revelation to describe the phenomena that occurs each time a Manifestation of God appears; he stated that the writings of the Manifestation of God represent the infallible word of God, and because the writings remain after the earthly life of the Manifestation they are a very important part of revelation.

`Abdu'l-Bahá has stated that from time to time an educator will come to teach humanity, and without these teachings humanity would be overcome by such emotions and attitudes as anger, jealousy and hatred.
[Interestingly the world seems to be more hate filled than before, ad increasingly getting worst, as is evident.]

In Bahá'í belief, all of the Manifestations of God are from the same God and have the same spiritual and metaphysical nature, and that there is absolute equality among them. The differences between the various Manifestations of God and their teachings, Bahá'u'lláh explained, are due to the varying needs and capacities of the civilization in which they appeared, and not due to any differences in their level of importance or nature.
The Manifestations of God are taught to be "one and the same", and in their relationship to one another have both the station of unity and the station of distinction.

There is no definitive list of Manifestations of God, but Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá referred to several personages as Manifestations; they include Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Bahá'u'lláh, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of periods or "dispensations", where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.

Now how mad do you think "Christians" are about this, especially after you bash them like this?


How many "Chrristians" accept that Muhammad, or Buddha, are in harmony with Christ? How many Muslim do you think welcome the idea of "Chrisian" teachings of the Trinity, and the resurrection of Christ, and his claim as God's son?
Might that be the reason some Muslim groups consider Bahai as an enemy deserving death?

I referred to the scripture twice 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Of course when this was written, the apostle Paul did not give a list of unbelievers. There was no need, because the Christians understood what an unbeliever is.
Evidently it has everything to do with interfaith... period.

My humble understanding on this matter and my personal view is that Jesus Teachings revolve around love for all people and that He would much have preferred reconciliation between faiths rather than conflict or wars.

So all humanity are my brothers and sisters no matter which religion or no religion.

It is my understanding that He referred to the coming of Baha’u’llah when He spoke about one fold and one shepherd, that is, all people united in belief in one God.

In the days of Jesus it was love thy neighbour but in this day it is to love all mankind just an expansion of the love He taught in a universal manner.

So it is my understanding we must love all religionists and all people and be at peace with each other. This is what Jesus taught .
Baha’u’llah is only expanding further the teachings of Jesus to Encompass this day and age but they are one in spirit and have the same aims and goals namely that we love each other and all humanity and be free from prejudice.

 

[loverofhumanity]

....and in another member's post:-

In 1863, Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, claimed to have been the promised messianic figure of all previous religions, and a Manifestation of God, .....................
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that, while being imprisoned in the Siyah-Chal in Iran, he underwent a series of mystical experiences including having a vision of the Maid of Heaven who told him of his divine mission,.................

Ah, yes......... I see......

Hi old badger how are you doing?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You raise some interesting questions.....



That is only correct if the foundation you are building on has major flaws in it to start with. It has been my experience that most churches have built on a foundation that was already saboutaged. Seeing Christendom as a continuation of what Christ taught is what has taken the church system away from God, IMO, but what Jesus and his apostles taught, was that seeds of false Christianity would be sown so that "wheat" and "weeds" would "grow together" in the world. For some reason, the churches do not see themselves as the "weeds" of Jesus parable. (How confronting!) They have been convinced that the core beliefs that they all share are solid, but on closer inspection, we find that they are all foreign elements that crept in over time and ingrained themselves in "church" thinking.



That is true to an extent, especially when it comes to who the devil is, and why he features at all in any belief system....but he seems to be the bad guy in all of them, along with his minions, the evil spirits, and their own interaction with humankind.

Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis but he is not specifically identified until Revelation. Without being able to identify the devil in Genesis, none of the rest of scripture makes a lick of sense. It sets the stage for a battle between two "gods"....one is the true God and the other is a "wannabe" fake. But the fake god knows that free will makes his mission ( to take worship away from God and get it for himself) very easy. He knows that God could could just eliminate all rebels with a word.....BUT free will means that all intelligent creatures must choose to serve God out of love, not because they are compelled to do so out of fear. So in Eden the battle began for the minds and hearts of both humans and angels.

The interesting part of this battle is the place of truth. One of the contenders can only gain advantage by lying and deception....which is something the true God is not capable of doing. So intelligent creatures must determine the value of truth as opposed to being cajoled by lies and deceptions....and empty promises.



I think it helps to understand what it is we are being saved from....it isn't hell, because Sheol and hades are words that simply mean the common grave....we are all going there. The devil's connection to the grave is that he caused the first humans to defy their Creator and that action introduced death into human experience. It was never meant to be a part of our life....and why it still feels so wrong.

To deal with this outcome, God just barred the way to the "tree of life" so that humans would reap what the devil had sown. He already warned the humans about the outcome, but the devil lied to them....God never did. Satan has been lying to humans ever since. But God never left humanity without a witness to his existence, his generosity and his love.
He also left us with a written record of his purpose, gradually unfolding his plans for man's redemption from the legacy left by their ancestors and the hope of a restoration of all we lost in the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)



God might be all knowing, but he is not the decider of how we choose to live this life. He gave all of his intelligent creatures the right of choice.....but always alerts them to consequences first. God did not create the devil....he abused his free will to create himself as his names suggest.

God has allowed all us to decide for ourselves who and what to believe. God knows, not just our thoughts, but the motivation of our hearts. If we accept things that are not true, then why do we do that? What is there in our own makeup that allows us to fall for the devil's lies? What buttons is he pushing to get us offside with God?

We are all in the situation of qualifying for life in the new world to come, (2 Peter 3:13) once God has dispensed with this world, its ruler and all his supporters....it's like applying for citizenship in another country; we either have the qualifications for entry, or we don't. We are all in one of only two camps, (sheep or goats) according to scripture.....by our choices we place ourselves into one or the other.....there is no fence in the middle to sit on.

When Jesus does the final judging, who is it that gets their marching orders? (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is how I understand these things.

Some very interesting points you have made. I like the one about ‘marching orders’.

I wonder what would be the greatest punishment we could be given? How about what would be the greatest reward?

It’s just my humble understanding that the greatest punishment we could ever receive would to be far from God, or disbelieve in Him, same thing, whilst our greatest reward I think would be to be near to God by believing in Him.

You mentioned choice though.

So who really inflicts punishment or reward upon us God or our good or bad choices?

So as I see it, the Pharisees condemned their own souls to the hell of farness from God by rejecting Jesus whist the disciples were already in the heaven of nearness to God although they walked the earth by their choice to accept and follow Jesus.

So isn’t it we who, through our choices really pass judgement upon ourselves and isn’t the ‘Day of Judgement’ referring to a time when we will all once again be forced to choose to accept or deny God through the appearance of another Holy One?

I think that day is now and we are all hearing about the coming of a Great One and our choices will determine whether we die spiritually in the hell of disbelief or live spiritually in the heaven of nearness to God by once again our choice.

These are the days of ‘clouds of doubts and confusion’ when the Sun of Truth is clouded by our own idle fancies and vain imaginings and a day when we are tested, when the sincerity of our faith is put on the line.

Who would have thought in Jesus time that His greatness would envelop all humanity? Now in our time another Great One has arisen. Will we be like the disciples or emulate the so called knowledgeable Pharisees? A fisherman recognised Who Jesus was but the most learned high priests did not. A lesson for us all.

Could Baha’u’llah be that Holy One of our time foretold in all the scriptures? Our choices and decisions on this matter could be our own judgement day? Worth maybe reflecting on as the Pharisees didn’t reflect and with all their so called knowledge couldn’t see the plain truth right before their own eyes!

Only we stand to gain or lose here, so the right decision is important for our salvation. But those that chose the popular view in Christ’s time we know now were led astray. Let us not, God willing, fall into the same trap again.

There are many reasons we turn away from the truth but I would venture to say it is due to lack of purity of heart than anything else for Jesus said the ‘pure in heart shall see God. So purity of heart is the requirement and we have complete control over that.

I wish you well and enjoyed reading your post a lot.

 

[oldbadger]

Hi old badger how are you doing?

Hi.....
Where have you been?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi.....
Where have you been?

Was in and out of hospital with gallstones so I got to see a lot of pretty nurses. Lol.

 

[ajay0]

The parallel image of Satan in the Hindu religion is Maya.

It implies craving and aversion for sensory objects which can result in vicious or unbalanced behavior or conduct.

The origin of Maya is in the mind, and dharmic philosophies thus gives a lot of importance to the study of the psychology of the mind, and attempt to transcend it's potential negativity through meditation, austerities, chanting and other spiritual exercises.

 

[nPeace]

@adrian009
Apparently you want to believe what you want to believe, and ignore the truth, or facts - even though you read them for yourself. You are free to believe those that misrepresent the truth.
Considering your aim, I am by no means surprised, nor moved.
Take care.