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How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

rosends

Well-Known Member
Sorry, just a few questions if I may:

Are you saying the written Talmud does not refer to Jesus of Nazareth?
Yes. Would you like a breakdown of the various claimed references and their explanation?
Which are the "established norms" in Talmud that the gospels run contrary to?
Here, start with this The Sanhedrin | Jewish Virtual Library
Did you understand my reference was to Rashi's reference about "Roman" texts, regardless of whether those texts were written by Jewish authors?
Yes, and Rashi's understanding of the source and root of the texts is a claim as valid as yours. You say they weren't Roman sourced, he says they were. He was 1000 years closer to the event.
You made a curious statement that Gematria was "designed" to be applied to Hebrew. Are you saying God designed Gematria or people?
There is much in the text which can only be deciphered through the use of gematria. Are you saying that that was an accident? Go tell the Bal Haturim. He might disagree.
One comment, you wrote "Did they not have a system of laws which drove them to reject what was being taught?" A cursory reading of the NT reveals that many of the people accepted what was taught and that Jesus lived and acted in accordance with both the Law and Talmud. It was actually jealousy and fear that motivated turning Jesus over to the Romans.
An entire group, the Pharisees who had been teaching the law for a while, disagreed with what Jesus was saying. Therefore there must have been a canon and practice that was established and a normative set of rules that he was judged against.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus believed in the same God. (In the beginning of Mathew, Mark, and I think John, the descendants of Jesus are written there. We (edit: I should say many Christians, since I am not one by belief) are all from the same God--Jesus included. That is both in the OT and NT. That's not a opinion, that's a fact...the proof is the Bible itself.)

Christian denominations have many interpretations as to who Jesus is and His divinity. Hence: Jehovah Witness, Catholicism, Lutheran, and denomi like Baptist verses Pentocastal. (There is no scripture evidence--just talk to the people or visit one of their sermons or Mass, you will see the conflict.

Don't look at the Christians. A lot of people have different beliefs regarding who Christ served.

In scripture, Jesus always served the God of the Old Testament...even quoted laws from the testament. (The Law of Moses).

Regardless if some Christian's call Christ God or not, it still stands that Christ served the God of Moses. In my opinion, that is who they should serve. Jehovah Witness, Catholics (if you talk with the priest, which I have), and similar denominations worship the Father as well as the son. Denominations such as Southern Baptist and fundamental churches worship Christ as the Father.

The proof: Read scripture, and go to any sermon and Mass, you will see the difference in opinion of what Christ taught about His Father (the Father of Abraham) and what many not all Christians feel He taught (that He called Himself the Father) which I believe Jesus would call blasphemy... my humble opinion.

I believe this could not be otherwise since Jesus is God in the flesh.

I believe there is scriptural evidence and gave it in the thread now expired "Did Jesus say He is God?"

Conflicting views do not come from scripture but from the vagaries of men's ideas about scripture.

i believe one has to start somewhere and opinion is a good starting point but one ought to move on to evidence as it becomes available. Blasphemy is speaking against God. Although saying that Jesus is the Father is incorrect it does not really oppose God since Jesus and the Father are one.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Closes her eyes and flips to a gospel Chapter...the gospels show that Christ served His Father--and that Father is the same Father that Jews served in the Old Testament the Torah.

Mathew 4:7 (Jesus quoting Moses) "Again, it is written. 'You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.'" He is speaking to the Devil.... and is repeating the words of Moses who got these words from the same God Jews believed in.

Mathew 6:14 "If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father (not Jesus) will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions."

Mathew 12:50 "Whoever does the will of my heavenly father (Not Jesus) is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Jesus is serving the God of the Jews... which is the God of Abraham of the Old testament.

Mathew chapter 1:1-17 (Geneology of Jesus Christ) going back from the Torah to now.

I am just repeating what the Bible says about Jesus and who He worshiped. Not all Christians believe Jesus is God; they believe He is God's Son. As such, they worship Both God of the Old Testament (God of the Jews) AND not instead of Christ who is the spokesman of God (the Father) Himself.

Pardon me for being jocular about this but I believe one doesn't see much when one closes ones eyes.

I believe Moses got his law from the same God that Jesus represents but Jews had varying beliefs about God and Moses had his peculiar beliefs as well.

I believe the Father did not exist as a concept in the OT since it is the arrival of the Son that brings in the concept of the Father. The concept of The Everlasting Father that is given in the OT most likely refers to the fact that God is creator of everyone.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes. Would you like a breakdown of the various claimed references and their explanation?

Here, start with this The Sanhedrin | Jewish Virtual Library

Yes, and Rashi's understanding of the source and root of the texts is a claim as valid as yours. You say they weren't Roman sourced, he says they were. He was 1000 years closer to the event.

There is much in the text which can only be deciphered through the use of gematria. Are you saying that that was an accident? Go tell the Bal Haturim. He might disagree.

An entire group, the Pharisees who had been teaching the law for a while, disagreed with what Jesus was saying. Therefore there must have been a canon and practice that was established and a normative set of rules that he was judged against.

**
The Sanhedrin did not follow their typical practice in the trial(s) of Jesus, yes. There have been several outstanding books and pamphlets written to illustrate where typical practice was abrogated to rush the death of the Messiah. Fortunately as was recorded, it was also expedient to kill one to save the nation.

I agree there is much in the Hebrew text that can only be deciphered with gematria. We know most Christians take both texts at face value only without looking for hints, codes, allusions, midrash, etc. I'm saying the very wondrous raptures of heaven will open to you when you apply good practices on both the OT and NT texts.

Yes, the Pharisees who had been teaching the law as well as adding to the law for a while disagreed with Jesus. As I wrote, most of their disagreements had nothing to do with the law but with their additions--such as when they challenged Him as to why His talmidim ate before washing their hands. There is no such hand washing in the 613. Jesus answered them from a portion with David taking the show bread during a time of need--that is, He answered them from the Hebrew texts (as always) to reprove them for adding inappropriate Talmudic practice...
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Are the colors outside your reply corresponding to the colors inside my quoted post? I can't see the relation since it's all in color. So, I'll uncolorized it. You quoted me, saying:

Jesus believed in the same God.

Which, by New Testament He is. He even quotes Moses to refer to the Jews as to why are they still living under the Law of Moses when there is a new Law from "His Father" in heaven which He brings to them with His Father's authority.

(In the beginning of Mathew, Mark, and I think John, the descendants of Jesus are written there. We (edit: I should say many Christians, since I am not one by belief) are all from the same God--Jesus included. That is both in the OT and NT. That's not a opinion, that's a fact...the proof is the Bible itself.)

Christian denominations have many interpretations as to who Jesus is and His divinity. Hence: Jehovah Witness, Catholicism, Lutheran, and denomi like Baptist verses Pentocastal. (There is no scripture evidence--just talk to the people or visit one of their sermons or Mass, you will see the conflict.

There is no scripture evidence that Jesus IS God rather than God's representative, His Prophet (which He says He is), and His Rabbi.The Father and Son have the same purpose and same nature (like Father, like Son); however, they are separate entities one being spirit only the other one spirit inhabiting the body of Christ. Just like a Christian in heaven is spirit only but while He is own earth He is the representation of Christ. The different between Christ and a Christian is Christ took on all the characteristics of His Father and was in perfect union (like a marriage) with His Father. In marriage, it says that the husband and while become one flesh; the same as the Father and Son who become One Spirit.

This doesn't mean Jesus cannot save Christians. It just means some Christians see Jesus at such a high level that they equate Him with His Father and He--Christ--never said he Was the Father. (As above) they are married, they are one. That is why the Father is the invisible image of His Son.
Conflicting views do not come from scripture but from the vagaries of men's ideas about scripture.
Which conflicts? I'm at a lost of which ones I mentioned. If there are, which most I've seen a lot, it is in the scripture--the words. That doesn't mean God is lying or anything like that. We're just talking about how the scripture is put together, who wrote what in what order, what they said, and so forth. Scripture is not the words, it is the Word (Christ). Christ says something to the effect "you search scriptures as if they are the way to eternal life. But all the scriptures point to me." Meaning, Christians are looking at the scriptures as if they are eternal life when it is obviously (and any one else can see even atheist), that they are talking about Christ.

If you want the specific scripture verse, let me know.. I'll find it. It's in the gospels.

I believe one has to start somewhere and opinion is a good starting point but one ought to move on to evidence as it becomes available. Blasphemy is speaking against God. Although saying that Jesus is the Father is incorrect it does not really oppose God since Jesus and the Father are one.
I see it this way. God is a title that is perfection, authority, and so forth. The Father is God (being under that title) and the Son who is not the Father is under the same title as well. So, they are both God.

If you say that the Son is the Father, according to Christ that is not true. He tells Peter (or Paul) not to look to Him (Christ) for answers, but to His Father for He (His Father) is the only one that is good and worthy of worship.

I remember in a chat room one lady did not have a copy of any Bible. She knew God from her heart. When she started studying scripture online--obviously she had access to a computer--she found what was in her heart was already in scripture.

Meanwhile, another woman same chat had no other access to God--no people, no church, no family--other than the Bible. So to her the Bible was the only way she knew God. Granted, given the situation, I understood her point of view (which we should at least do when discussing differing opinions-understand), I still contend as the first person you don't need scripture--words to know Christ--the Word.

Also, with the evidence, it depends on the eyes of the person. I don't see the Christian God by creation. I only hear claims that He exist through people's words (from Moses Apostles to yours to John's) and what scripture tells about itself.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'm literally just straight curious. Not only is this a belief, it's a common one despite the two deities being inherently contradictory in nature and Jesus fulfilling little to NONE of the messianic prophesy. Not to mention the whole idea of Christ contradicts Judaism, and Christianity has blatantly perverted the Hebrew texts. If the deities are suppose to be the same, as Christianity seems to believe, as in they worship the Hebrew god, isn't the religion absolute pure blasphemy?

Since I don't think either of these ideas of God have any authority, what does it matter?

Jews made up some idea of God based on the Torah, Christians came up with some idea of God based on the Septuagint. More than likely both are incorrect.

Why assume any authority over God in either case?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Pardon me for being jocular about this but I believe one doesn't see much when one closes ones eyes.
I just closed my eyes and opened the book and opened my eyes to read it, lol. I already had scriptures on hand, though; since, I was faced by this is issue when I had joined the Church.
I believe Moses got his law from the same God that Jesus represents but Jews had varying beliefs about God and Moses had his peculiar beliefs as well.

I see it the other way around. Jesus got His law from the same God as Moses did. Then, I don't believe Jesus is the Father; so, even though He was there from time beginning, He isn't the Creator. The Creator/Father spoke to the Jews before He sent His Son in the flesh in the NT.

I believe the Father did not exist as a concept in the OT since it is the arrival of the Son that brings in the concept of the Father. The concept of The Everlasting Father that is given in the OT most likely refers to the fact that God is creator of everyone.
Interesting. I have to think over that.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
**
The Sanhedrin did not follow their typical practice in the trial(s) of Jesus, yes. There have been several outstanding books and pamphlets written to illustrate where typical practice was abrogated to rush the death of the Messiah. Fortunately as was recorded, it was also expedient to kill one to save the nation.
Wait, what? There are pamphlets which show that typical practice was changed (thus corroborating the inaccuracy of the story as told), but then justfy record that the practice was changed by showing that it was changed in the text which was wrong. So other people wrote pamphlets to explain why what was recorded couldn't have been wrong? How self-serving of them.

Yes, the Pharisees who had been teaching the law as well as adding to the law for a while disagreed with Jesus. As I wrote, most of their disagreements had nothing to do with the law but with their additions--such as when they challenged Him as to why His talmidim ate before washing their hands.There is no such hand washing in the 613.
But there IS in the oral law which existed beforehand, so denying the practice which is proven to have been around before the gospels seems foolhardy unless you reject the oral law's authority. And if you do, then using the gospels to learn it is a waste of time. If Jesus' argument is that the rules from the oral law are a "waste of time" then why study it at all?

Now I'm a little confused also. Jesus' students eating without washing is in Matthew 15, Luke 11 and Mark 7. I don't know where he uses David as a response. The David story regarding the show bread is in Mark 2 and relates to the Sabbath. Jesus' actual response about the hand washing shows how little connection there is to any authentic understanding of the oral law. A response which does not provide any textual support to counter the talmudic rules of hand washing simply confirms the power of the actual rules and makes breaking them an invalid response. You cannot justify breaking rules by saying "but you broke other rules."
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
**
The Sanhedrin did not follow their typical practice in the trial(s) of Jesus, yes. There have been several outstanding books and pamphlets written to illustrate where typical practice was abrogated to rush the death of the Messiah. Fortunately as was recorded, it was also expedient to kill one to save the nation.
There is far too much that the Sanhedrin had to abrogate, in broad daylight, in the public, when the Temple was filled to capacity (perhaps it was only more full on Yom Kippur) than even makes sense. I'm far more willing to believe that the trial and the subsequent crucifixion never actually happened, and if it DID, then it certainly didn't happen the way it was depicted in any of the four gospels.

I agree there is much in the Hebrew text that can only be deciphered with gematria.
Um, no. Nothing is "deciphered" by Gematria, but points of interest. Most of what is deciphered comes from words that seem irrelevant, words that are missing, words that are repeated... And stories and commandments that have Oral Tradition about them, hence in the Gemara.

We know most Christians take both texts at face value only without looking for hints, codes, allusions, midrash, etc. I'm saying the very wondrous raptures of heaven will open to you when you apply good practices on both the OT and NT texts.
Interesting.

Yes, the Pharisees who had been teaching the law as well as adding to the law for a while disagreed with Jesus. As I wrote, most of their disagreements had nothing to do with the law but with their additions--such as when they challenged Him as to why His talmidim ate before washing their hands. There is no such hand washing in the 613.
You are right, but there is a time, a place, and an appropriate fashion to deal with everything. Yes, the Rabbis made it a new tradition. It was in support of what the Cohanim had to do when they ate bread that DID require washing. Further, more explanation on the how and why it was a good idea is a conversation for another time.

Further, it wasn't created in order to complicate the lives of the Jews, as is often depicted by Jesus' "conflicts" with the Rabbis. However, the Rabbis were given permission BY GOD to introduce such things (in Deuteronomy, not in that precise moment), as long as they didn't change the actual law. Adding a ceremonial washing of hands before eating bread was logical. (Again, for another time.)

In that story, Jesus' objection simply refuted the authority that they had to make such a ruling. There is a right way to do things, and there is a wrong way to do things. The way that Jesus answered them... is a model for the WRONG way to go about arguing with the Rabbis.
Jesus answered them from a portion with David taking the show bread during a time of need--that is, He answered them from the Hebrew texts (as always) to reprove them for adding inappropriate Talmudic practice...
Again, right way, wrong way. Further, there is the way to participate in an argument.

That precise argument happened after Jesus' disciples picked grain on Shabbat. This prohibition wasn't invented by the Rabbis. (Perhaps a prohibition against touching the sickle might have been, but the actual picking of grain is forbidden in the Laws of Shabbat, as described in Mesechet Shabbat.) The right way to argue would have been to explain a) they had a valid reason for going against the law. For example, they were starving, and no one would lend a hand or a place at their table. That would have been a much BIGGER problem, and a mark against the community. Or, b) an explanation for why what they were doing was NOT going against the law.

Instead, Jesus threw up a strawman. Different prohibitions have different reasons, and different conditions for setting them aside if necessary. For a non-Cohen to eat the Shewbread because he was running for his life and the Cohanim present didn't have a different food source has NOTHING to do with the laws of Shabbat.

Being in a field on Shabbat means several things. 1) The group (ie. Jesus and his disciples) were apart from the community on Shabbat. Why? It is common, on Shabbat, for people to bring guests home for a meal. Were they so worried that the entire community they were closest to (including whoever owned the field) were so against them that they couldn't be bothered to inquire?

2) Just about any law concerning Shabbat can be broken in order to save a life. If the students were that desperate, why didn't Jesus simply say so?

Instead, it was clear (at least, from the text) that Jesus was simply refuting the authority of the Rabbis, rather than actively engaging in a meaningful discussion.
 
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dantech

Well-Known Member
There is far too much that the Sanhedrin had to abrogate, in broad daylight, in the public, when the Temple was filled to capacity (perhaps it was only more full on Yom Kippur) than even makes sense. I'm far more willing to believe that the trial and the subsequent crucifixion never actually happened, and if it DID, then it certainly didn't happen the way it was depicted in any of the four gospels.

Um, no. Nothing is "deciphered" by Gematria, but points of interest. Most of what is deciphered comes from words that seem irrelevant, words that are missing, words that are repeated... And stories and commandments that have Oral Tradition about them, hence in the Gemara.

Interesting.

You are right, but there is a time, a place, and an appropriate fashion to deal with everything. Yes, the Rabbis made it a new tradition. It was in support of what the Cohanim had to do when they ate bread that DID require washing. Further, more explanation on the how and why it was a good idea is a conversation for another time.

Further, it wasn't created in order to complicate the lives of the Jews, as is often depicted by Jesus' "conflicts" with the Rabbis. However, the Rabbis were given permission BY GOD to introduce such things (in Deuteronomy, not in that precise moment), as long as they didn't change the actual law. Adding a ceremonial washing of hands before eating bread was logical. (Again, for another time.)

In that story, Jesus' objection simply refuted the authority that they had to make such a ruling. There is a right way to do things, and there is a wrong way to do things. The way that Jesus answered them... is a model for the WRONG way to go about arguing with the Rabbis.
Again, right way, wrong way. Further, there is the way to participate in an argument.

That precise argument happened after Jesus' disciples picked grain on Shabbat. This prohibition wasn't invented by the Rabbis. (Perhaps a prohibition against touching the sickle might have been, but the actual picking of grain is forbidden in the Laws of Shabbat, as described in Mesechet Shabbat.) The right way to argue would have been to explain a) they had a valid reason for going against the law. For example, they were starving, and no one would lend a hand or a place at their table. That would have been a much BIGGER problem, and a mark against the community. Or, b) an explanation for why what they were doing was NOT going against the law.

Instead, Jesus threw up a strawman. Different prohibitions have different reasons, and different conditions for setting them aside if necessary. For a non-Cohen to eat the Shewbread because he was running for his life and the Cohanim present didn't have a different food source has NOTHING to do with the laws of Shabbat.

Being in a field on Shabbat means several things. 1) The group (ie. Jesus and his disciples) were apart from the community on Shabbat. Why? It is common, on Shabbat, for people to bring guests home for a meal. Were they so worried that the entire community they were closest to (including whoever owned the field) were so against them that they couldn't be bothered to inquire?

2) Just about any law concerning Shabbat can be broken in order to save a life. If the students were that desperate, why didn't Jesus simply say so?

Instead, it was clear (at least, from the text) that Jesus was simply refuting the authority of the Rabbis, rather than actively engaging in a meaningful discussion.
My early candidate for post of the year.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There is far too much that the Sanhedrin had to abrogate, in broad daylight, in the public, when the Temple was filled to capacity (perhaps it was only more full on Yom Kippur) than even makes sense. I'm far more willing to believe that the trial and the subsequent crucifixion never actually happened, and if it DID, then it certainly didn't happen the way it was depicted in any of the four gospels.

Um, no. Nothing is "deciphered" by Gematria, but points of interest. Most of what is deciphered comes from words that seem irrelevant, words that are missing, words that are repeated... And stories and commandments that have Oral Tradition about them, hence in the Gemara.

Interesting.

You are right, but there is a time, a place, and an appropriate fashion to deal with everything. Yes, the Rabbis made it a new tradition. It was in support of what the Cohanim had to do when they ate bread that DID require washing. Further, more explanation on the how and why it was a good idea is a conversation for another time.

Further, it wasn't created in order to complicate the lives of the Jews, as is often depicted by Jesus' "conflicts" with the Rabbis. However, the Rabbis were given permission BY GOD to introduce such things (in Deuteronomy, not in that precise moment), as long as they didn't change the actual law. Adding a ceremonial washing of hands before eating bread was logical. (Again, for another time.)

In that story, Jesus' objection simply refuted the authority that they had to make such a ruling. There is a right way to do things, and there is a wrong way to do things. The way that Jesus answered them... is a model for the WRONG way to go about arguing with the Rabbis.
Again, right way, wrong way. Further, there is the way to participate in an argument.

That precise argument happened after Jesus' disciples picked grain on Shabbat. This prohibition wasn't invented by the Rabbis. (Perhaps a prohibition against touching the sickle might have been, but the actual picking of grain is forbidden in the Laws of Shabbat, as described in Mesechet Shabbat.) The right way to argue would have been to explain a) they had a valid reason for going against the law. For example, they were starving, and no one would lend a hand or a place at their table. That would have been a much BIGGER problem, and a mark against the community. Or, b) an explanation for why what they were doing was NOT going against the law.

Instead, Jesus threw up a strawman. Different prohibitions have different reasons, and different conditions for setting them aside if necessary. For a non-Cohen to eat the Shewbread because he was running for his life and the Cohanim present didn't have a different food source has NOTHING to do with the laws of Shabbat.

Being in a field on Shabbat means several things. 1) The group (ie. Jesus and his disciples) were apart from the community on Shabbat. Why? It is common, on Shabbat, for people to bring guests home for a meal. Were they so worried that the entire community they were closest to (including whoever owned the field) were so against them that they couldn't be bothered to inquire?

2) Just about any law concerning Shabbat can be broken in order to save a life. If the students were that desperate, why didn't Jesus simply say so?

Instead, it was clear (at least, from the text) that Jesus was simply refuting the authority of the Rabbis, rather than actively engaging in a meaningful discussion.

All, you are missing some information that I'd like to please share if I may. You realize, I'm certain, that:

1. You are using Talmud, oral and written, tradition, etc. to build cases based on your understanding of, for one, Shabbat. Where the Tanakh tells us, "When you come into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the heads with your hand, but you shall not use a sickle on your neighbor’s standing grain..." there is no prohibition given re: the Shabbat. It says WHEN. You are using today's practices to accuse Y'Shua's disciples of doing something that was lawful. Mishna forbids winnowing or gathering grain but not such activity is not described as harvesting in the Pentateuch.

2. I apologize for placing the hand washing and picking of grain together.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
All, you are missing some information that I'd like to please share if I may. You realize, I'm certain, that:

1. You are using Talmud, oral and written, tradition, etc. to build cases based on your understanding of, for one, Shabbat. Where the Tanakh tells us, "When you come into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the heads with your hand, but you shall not use a sickle on your neighbor’s standing grain..." there is no prohibition given re: the Shabbat. It says WHEN. You are using today's practices to accuse Y'Shua's disciples of doing something that was lawful. Mishna forbids winnowing or gathering grain but not such activity is not described as harvesting in the Pentateuch.
The thing is that you can't truly understand Torah law WITHOUT the Oral Law, as it was given at the same time as the Written Law. It is a matter of belief which was given when, but the concept of "what was lawful and what wasn't" always has to be through the lens of what is taken as given.

Being a Jew who is knowledgeable in Torah law, and which bits were given as directive, and which bits were specifically added later (it actually says, for those who know how to look), it's clear what Jesus and his buddies were doing wrong. And even if you want to say that he wasn't, there is always a right way and a wrong way to argue something.

And I've NEVER, in all the gospels, seen a time when Jesus spoke to the Rabbis that he ever actually had a meaningful discussion with them. He always repudiates their authority, when he's not descending into outright insults.

When I read the gospels, I see how many things he does wrong, and not just what you might consider technicalities, but things that are in the Torah, in black and white. It doesn't add up to a pretty picture.

But since you believe that Jesus must have been right, to you, it probably doesn't matter how badly he did things. You will only see that Jesus was right, so the Rabbis were not only wrong, but probably even deserved his scorn and every form of disrespect he showed them.

2. I apologize for placing the hand washing and picking of grain together.
It's okay.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
Where the Tanakh tells us, "When you come into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the heads with your hand, but you shall not use a sickle on your neighbor’s standing grain..." there is no prohibition given re: the Shabbat. It says WHEN.
Context helps. This particular law was not about Shabbat. It was regarding what a person can do when visiting another person's field. If you use a sickle in someone else's field without permission, it's theft. If you pick a few grains, that's fine.

The prohibition for picking grain, or harvesting on Shabbat, has a different source from a different passage.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The thing is that you can't truly understand Torah law WITHOUT the Oral Law, as it was given at the same time as the Written Law. It is a matter of belief which was given when, but the concept of "what was lawful and what wasn't" always has to be through the lens of what is taken as given.

Being a Jew who is knowledgeable in Torah law, and which bits were given as directive, and which bits were specifically added later (it actually says, for those who know how to look), it's clear what Jesus and his buddies were doing wrong. And even if you want to say that he wasn't, there is always a right way and a wrong way to argue something.

And I've NEVER, in all the gospels, seen a time when Jesus spoke to the Rabbis that he ever actually had a meaningful discussion with them. He always repudiates their authority, when he's not descending into outright insults.

When I read the gospels, I see how many things he does wrong, and not just what you might consider technicalities, but things that are in the Torah, in black and white. It doesn't add up to a pretty picture.

But since you believe that Jesus must have been right, to you, it probably doesn't matter how badly he did things. You will only see that Jesus was right, so the Rabbis were not only wrong, but probably even deserved his scorn and every form of disrespect he showed them.

It's okay.

What scorn and disrespect did he show them?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Context helps. This particular law was not about Shabbat. It was regarding what a person can do when visiting another person's field. If you use a sickle in someone else's field without permission, it's theft. If you pick a few grains, that's fine.

The prohibition for picking grain, or harvesting on Shabbat, has a different source from a different passage.

I've responded to this point already, as above. Thanks.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I believe this could not be otherwise since Jesus is God in the flesh.

I believe there is scriptural evidence and gave it in the thread now expired "Did Jesus say He is God?"

Conflicting views do not come from scripture but from the vagaries of men's ideas about scripture.

i believe one has to start somewhere and opinion is a good starting point but one ought to move on to evidence as it becomes available. Blasphemy is speaking against God. Although saying that Jesus is the Father is incorrect it does not really oppose God since Jesus and the Father are one.

Since G-D said no one can see G-D and live there is no such thing as "god in the flesh".
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
That concept is completely incompatible with Jewish ideology. God is not, never was, and never will be "in the flesh." God is incorporeal.

The fact that you believe that Jesus is "God in the flesh" means that your system of beliefs has NOTHING to do with Judaism.

I believe current day Judaism contains a lot of misinformation.

I believe what God is and what He can do are two different things. God is incorporeal but He is also able to inhabit a body.

I believe Judaism is lacking in its relationship to God.
 
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