How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

[Muffled]

I'm really not clear on what you're saying here. As Jews, we generally do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the messianic predictions, so how does this relate to "misinformation", or is your use of the term a reference to something else?

I believe I don't view belief as information. Probably in the long run Judaism recognizes that the information is there but rejects it out of animosity towards Christianity. I see the same thing in Christianity. Christian leaders may say that Muslims worship a different God but that doesn't come from information but from a desire to contend with Islam for supremacy.

 

[Muffled]

Did you notice that the citation is mostly put in the present tense ("...is..."), so that it must relate to the people at that time?

I believe that is imputed to God when in reality God sees everything, past, present and future as present.

 

[Flankerl]

Flankerl, from all we know, is certainly Jewish, as are her mother, father, sisters and brother. So, if she is anybody's messiah, wouldn't it be safe to assume that she is the Jewish Messiah foretold in the scriptures?

 

[metis]

I believe that is imputed to God when in reality God sees everything, past, present and future as present.

Except it's written by humans for humans, so tense very much needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[metis]

I believe I don't view belief as information. Probably in the long run Judaism recognizes that the information is there but rejects it out of animosity towards Christianity. I see the same thing in Christianity. Christian leaders may say that Muslims worship a different God but that doesn't come from information but from a desire to contend with Islam for supremacy.

Not really, and you might want to check this out as far as messianic predictions are concerned:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

 

[metis]

Flankerl, from all we know, is certainly Jewish, as are her mother, father, sisters and brother. So, if she is anybody's messiah, wouldn't it be safe to assume that she is the Jewish Messiah foretold in the scriptures?

Does that mean we have to worship you?

 

[Akivah]

Jesus, from all we know, was certainly Jewish, as were his mother, father, sisters and brothers. So, if he is anybody's messiah, wouldn't it be safe to assume that he was the Jewish Messiah foretold in the scriptures?

Literally thousands of people have claimed to be the messiah. If all that is needed is to be Jewish and put in a claim, why don't you recognize them as messiahs?

Jewish Messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[leibowde84]

I believe I don't view belief as information. Probably in the long run Judaism recognizes that the information is there but rejects it out of animosity towards Christianity. I see the same thing in Christianity. Christian leaders may say that Muslims worship a different God but that doesn't come from information but from a desire to contend with Islam for supremacy.

The reluctance of Jews to not accept Jesus as the Messiah (the same happens in Islam, as Jesus is revered as a prophet) in no way seems to be based on animosity, at least in the modern world. That seems like an archaic frame of mind, but I am interested to hear why you would think this. Taking into account that Judaism does not give much importance to the new Testament, what information do you feel they are discarding/ignoring?

 

[leibowde84]

Literally thousands of people have claimed to be the messiah. If all that is needed is to be Jewish and put in a claim, why don't you recognize them as messiahs?

Jewish Messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That wasn't the question, buddy. The thread seemed to signify that Jesus was the messiah, just not the Jewish messiah. So, my comment was pointing out that, if he actually was the messiah, it would seem obvious that he would have been the messiah of his own people.

 

[Harmonious]

I believe I am sure of it.

Two points for both of us for agreeing.

I believe this is an unjustified belief simply because you wish to believe it.

So YOU believe. And I believe that YOUR belief is just as unjustified. But there you go...

I believe you do but people don't have one way relationships to other peoople because it wouldn't be a relationship at all.

Who are you to say that I have a one-way relationship? You don't know my beliefs (you think you do, but that doesn't make you correct), or my relationship to God or other people.

You know that my relationship doesn't match YOUR relationship to God, assuming you have one. So, it doesn't do it for you. That's your right. But you have no right to say that I don't have something because YOU don't get it.

I believe it is quite likely that I don't but from my experience of talking to Jews I haven't found one with a relationship with God.

How sad for you.

Many of the Jews I know not only have relationships with God, but they are extraordinary. There are others who don't, but many more I know DO.

And again, just because YOU don't seem to know Jews who have rewarding relationships with God doesn't mean that none of us do. It just means you haven't really met Jews who are as connected to their faith as I am or as I do.

 

[leibowde84]

Flankerl, from all we know, is certainly Jewish, as are her mother, father, sisters and brother. So, if she is anybody's messiah, wouldn't it be safe to assume that she is the Jewish Messiah foretold in the scriptures?

What is this supposed to mean? All I said was, assuming that Jesus was the messiah, it would be safe to assume that he was the messiah of his own people. Not sure why you wrote what you did, as I was very obviously not making any supernatural claims about Jesus, just that it follows that if he was Jewish and we assume he was the Messiah, it seems pretty believable that he would be the Jewish Messiah. Do you disagree with this?

 

[leibowde84]

Two points for both of us for agreeing.
So YOU believe. And I believe that YOUR belief is just as unjustified. But there you go...
Who are you to say that I have a one-way relationship? You don't know my beliefs (you think you do, but that doesn't make you correct), or my relationship to God or other people.

You know that my relationship doesn't match YOUR relationship to God, assuming you have one. So, it doesn't do it for you. That's your right. But you have no right to say that I don't have something because YOU don't get it.
How sad for you.

Many of the Jews I know not only have relationships with God, but they are extraordinary. There are others who don't, but many more I know DO.

And again, just because YOU don't seem to know Jews who have rewarding relationships with God doesn't mean that none of us do. It just means you haven't really met Jews who are as connected to their faith as I am or as I do.

Don't worry. This site is filled with know nothing know it alls who claim to be able to look inside your mind and understand your beliefs simply by your comments in a thread. Kind of a pathetic attempt at understanding anything if you ask me.

 

[Akivah]

What is this supposed to mean? All I said was, assuming that Jesus was the messiah, it would be safe to assume that he was the messiah of his own people. Not sure why you wrote what you did, as I was very obviously not making any supernatural claims about Jesus, just that it follows that if he was Jewish and we assume he was the Messiah, it seems pretty believable that he would be the Jewish Messiah. Do you disagree with this?

It's just such a nonsensical and loaded question. The term "messiah" originates with the Hebrew bible. The term was stolen by Christianity and given a different meaning. Christianity calls the person that they assigned the title to, a Jewish person, although the person that they identify didn't do anything to earn the title as defined in Judaism.

Thus your question uses the word as defined by Christianity and tries to apply it to a different religion. The question makes no sense.

Jesus is the Christian messiah since they changed the word meaning to fit him. He can't be the Jewish messiah since he didn't earn the title.

 

[Harmonious]

Don't worry. This site is filled with know nothing know it alls who claim to be able to look inside your mind and understand your beliefs simply by your comments in a thread. Kind of a pathetic attempt at understanding anything if you ask me.

You are correct.

I haven't decided whether it is amusing or sad that people who have little to no knowledge of my belief system (other than their own dogma) tell me what it is that I believe.

I've met people of different religions with different degrees of beliefs. It would NEVER be my place to tell anyone what their relationship to God (or lack thereof) might be.

There are people who struggle with belief because of actions of their supposed coreligionists. There are people who have had epiphanies and miracles happen to them. There are people who are disgusted with the tragedies in their own lives, and have given up on believing in God. There are people who have decided that what they have learned recently has changed their minds on what they thought was the truth, but they made a different decision.

Each person has their own relationship, or not. My belief system allows for all of them.

 

[leibowde84]

It's just such a nonsensical and loaded question. The term "messiah" originates with the Hebrew bible. The term was stolen by Christianity and given a different meaning. Christianity calls the person that they assigned the title to, a Jewish person, although the person that they identify didn't do anything to earn the title as defined in Judaism.

Thus your question uses the word as defined by Christianity and tries to apply it to a different religion. The question makes no sense.

Jesus is obviously the Christian messiah since they changed the word meaning to fit him.

Fair enough, but Christianity is a sect (off-shoot) of Judaism.

 

[leibowde84]

You are correct.

I haven't decided whether it is amusing or sad that people who have little to no knowledge of my belief system (other than their own dogma) tell me what it is that I believe.

I've met people of different religions with different degrees of beliefs. It would NEVER be my place to tell anyone what their relationship to God (or lack thereof) might be.

There are people who struggle with belief because of actions of their supposed coreligionists. There are people who have had epiphanies and miracles happen to them. There are people who are disgusted with the tragedies in their own lives, and have given up on believing in God. There are people who have decided that what they have learned recently has changed their minds on what they thought was the truth, but they made a different decision.

Each person has their own relationship, or not. My belief system allows for all of them.

Listen to this doosie. Last week someone, who will remain nameless, tried to convince me that the reason why I was skeptical about the validity and accuracy of the Bible was probably my subconscious efforts to allow myself to ignore dogma I did not find easy to follow. The audacity involved in even thinking something like this about another person you don't know is astounding to me.

 

[rosends]

Fair enough, but Christianity is a sect (off-shoot) of Judaism.

I respectfully disagree with this but possibly only in a strict semantic sense. Christianity developed when (according to one understanding of the timeline and narrative) an off shoot of Judaism was changed to apply to more than just Jews. Christianity itself, when it came into being as Christianity was not an off shoot, but a later form of an earlier off shoot. of Judaism.

 

[leibowde84]

I respectfully disagree with this but possibly only in a strict semantic sense. Christianity developed when (according to one understanding of the timeline and narrative) an off shoot of Judaism was changed to apply to more than just Jews. Christianity itself, when it came into being as Christianity was not an off shoot, but a later form of an earlier off shoot. of Judaism.

Are you referring to the fact that it was not until after Jesus' death that Christianity was permitted to be spread to gentiles? It always surprises me the amount of Christians who don't understand this fact.

 

[Akivah]

Fair enough, but Christianity is a sect (off-shoot) of Judaism.

Possibly. But their religion is diametrically opposite of Judaism.

 

[rosends]

Are you referring to the fact that it was not until after Jesus' death that Christianity was permitted to be spread to gentiles? It always surprises me the amount of Christians who don't understand this fact.

Yes and no. Partially that it wasn't a formalized offshoot of Judaism ever, partially that when it was preached to non-Jews it became radically different and, in a way, exclusive of Judaism, partially that Christianity as a religion, when it became "Christianity" morphed away from Judaism.