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How in the world can ANYBODY think the Jews and Christians have the same god, that Jesus is messiah?

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
I am not anti-any people. False Jews are not Jews. They are a different people...
I will say this: if anybody even says the word JEW, you people mark them as Jew haters. Jews always say things about others that are not good. ...
I don't expect Jews to listen to me, because they don't listen to God.
It is the underlined line that makes Jews say you are a Jew hater.

Jews listen to God (with varying degrees of success). Jesus has nothing to do with God. The fact that you believe Jesus DOES have anything to do with God shows why the God of Jews and that of Christians are not the same.
 

Domenic

Active Member
It is the underlined line that makes Jews say you are a Jew hater.

Jews listen to God (with varying degrees of success). Jesus has nothing to do with God. The fact that you believe Jesus DOES have anything to do with God shows why the God of Jews and that of Christians are not the same.

It is not our God that is a different God...it is the understanding of the Jewish people that is different. God in Eze 3:7 called you hardheaded, and hardhearted.
God said you don't listen to him, and you didn't listen to the Messiah he sent...I understand you will never listen to any non-Jewish human. False Jews have made a fool of not only Christians, but also of true Jew. The Messiah had to come before the Temple was destroyed...Hebrew scriptures say he would be here when the temple was here...Well, the Temple is gone, and you are still waiting for him to come. I'm just blowing words in the wind...God said you won't, and don't listen.
Believe what you want. If you want a pink God, female God, two headed God...whatever you want to believe, just follow yourself...I'm not wasting any more breath...I kick the dust from my feet.
 

catch22

Active Member
It is the underlined line that makes Jews say you are a Jew hater.

Jews listen to God (with varying degrees of success). Jesus has nothing to do with God. The fact that you believe Jesus DOES have anything to do with God shows why the God of Jews and that of Christians are not the same.

If I could offer my honest opinion (not that anyone cares, as has been stated to me repeatedly).

I don't think we're talking about a different God. Let me explain . God's work in man's life, throughout the Tanakh, is obvious. His hand guides Israel, it disciplines Israel when she does not abide in Him, etc. It goes from point A to point B to point C. All the while, Israel is pretty resistant toward God's plans.

So, the gospels, the New Testament, the work Christ did, the prophecies made and the lessons taught... to me, it's just point D. And Israel, like usual, is resisting and saying no thanks. But at the end of the day, God is God -- whether you listen or not, whether you believe what He does or not. It wasn't a requisite before, and it isn't now. If nothing else, Israel is behaving in line with the tradition their own texts describe.

Anyway the fact of the matter is time will tell. You will know in time. I will know in time. We all will know in time. Who's right? Well, who cares? Even if I am right, you won't believe me. Even if you are right, I won't believe you. Hence, debate. Alas, there's no good reason. If nothing else, rosends has taught me the pure futility of it.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
If I could offer my honest opinion (not that anyone cares, as has been stated to me repeatedly).

I don't think we're talking about a different God. Let me explain...

{snip}

We all will know in time. Who's right? Well, who cares? Even if I am right, you won't believe me. Even if you are right, I won't believe you. Hence, debate. Alas, there's no good reason. If nothing else, rosends has taught me the pure futility of it.

This is one of your best posts yet!

Yes, you have your own beliefs. I have my own beliefs. We all have our own beliefs. And no one's beliefs completely agree with anyone else's. Respectful questions are best, that are NOT followed up with contrasts and differences to one's own beliefs. I've yet to read of anyone stating that they changed their beliefs based on internet postings. So now that you realize the futility of changing someone's religious beliefs, what's next for you?
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
If I could offer my honest opinion (not that anyone cares, as has been stated to me repeatedly).

I don't think we're talking about a different God. Let me explain . God's work in man's life, throughout the Tanakh, is obvious. His hand guides Israel, it disciplines Israel when she does not abide in Him, etc. It goes from point A to point B to point C.
I was with you, up until this point.
All the while, Israel is pretty resistant toward God's plans.
Actually, no, Israel ISN'T pretty resistant to God's plans.

You realize that the various books of the Prophets cover hundreds of years of history. If the only snags in the road are the ones listed in the Prophets, then Israel (and Judea) were pretty darn good for most of the time.

The problem is that you are focusing on the complaints God had against the Jews are simply a small sampling of a horrible, rebellious people who just don't know when to stop. Jews, in general, focus on the complaints that God had against the Jews as a few bad moments of a generally good, obedient population.

In Jewish exegesis, we learn that there were over 2 million prophets (both men and women) who were sent to the Jews in both Israel and Judea between the times of Moses and Malachi. The only ones we have as canon were ones that had messages that last through the ages. There are messages of warning and rebuke, but there is also discussion of love, and forgiveness, and hope.

So, the gospels, the New Testament, the work Christ did, the prophecies made and the lessons taught... to me, it's just point D. And Israel, like usual, is resisting and saying no thanks.
You would.

You, like most Christians who try to "rebuke" Jews for "not falling in line" seem to forget that the messages given in the Prophets were not just rebuke and warning, but also praise for staying the course. But this is always forgotten, in an effort to convince Jews that "we are ignoring what is in front of us."

You also seem to forget that Jews were given specific instructions for deciphering who are true prophets and who are false prophets, regardless of our success rate of following their advice. You poke at the ones that show that the Jews were very rebellious, and make that your model for how Jews operate over the course of history while ignoring wherever Jews are praised as being faithful, and successful in following the Torah.

That is also par for the course.

But at the end of the day, God is God -- whether you listen or not, whether you believe what He does or not. It wasn't a requisite before, and it isn't now. If nothing else, Israel is behaving in line with the tradition their own texts describe.
Yup. Both the bad AND the good, that you won't ever acknowledge.

Anyway the fact of the matter is time will tell. You will know in time. I will know in time. We all will know in time. Who's right? Well, who cares? Even if I am right, you won't believe me. Even if you are right, I won't believe you. Hence, debate. Alas, there's no good reason. If nothing else, rosends has taught me the pure futility of it.
Good.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
It is not our God that is a different God...it is the understanding of the Jewish people that is different.
If Jesus is a part of it, we don't believe in the same God. You don't like to hear that. Understood.

God in Eze 3:7 called you hardheaded, and hardhearted.
Just like I told Catch 22, you only see what you like to see. You refuse to look at all the passages, especially in Psalms and elsewhere, that talk about the faithfulness of the Jews.

You cherry-pick the verses that talk about Jews as rebellious. Got that.

God said you don't listen to him,
God also said that we DO listen to Him.
and you didn't listen to the Messiah he sent...
He didn't send anyone since the First Temple was destroyed. Jesus doesn't qualify as anything useful for non-Christians.
I understand you will never listen to any non-Jewish human.
Eh. It was a non-Jew (a Catholic, actually) on a different message board who convinced me to learn the laws of "guarding my tongue from evil", according to the laws as outlined by the Chofetz Chaim. So you are wrong again. I just won't listen to a guy who is telling me old news, and trying to sell a false message as what is righteous and true.
False Jews have made a fool of not only Christians, but also of true Jew. The Messiah had to come before the Temple was destroyed...
Actually, no. The Messiah will help to rebuild the Temple. But knowing Jewish ideology isn't your forte.

Pretending you know Jewish ideology... You excel in pretending. If you really are done with me, that's okay with me.
 

catch22

Active Member
I was with you, up until this point.
Actually, no, Israel ISN'T pretty resistant to God's plans.

Unsurprising :)

You realize that the various books of the Prophets cover hundreds of years of history. If the only snags in the road are the ones listed in the Prophets, then Israel (and Judea) were pretty darn good for most of the time.

The problem is that you are focusing on the complaints God had against the Jews are simply a small sampling of a horrible, rebellious people who just don't know when to stop. Jews, in general, focus on the complaints that God had against the Jews as a few bad moments of a generally good, obedient population.

In Jewish exegesis, we learn that there were over 2 million prophets (both men and women) who were sent to the Jews in both Israel and Judea between the times of Moses and Malachi. The only ones we have as canon were ones that had messages that last through the ages. There are messages of warning and rebuke, but there is also discussion of love, and forgiveness, and hope.

The entirety of your holy text is Israel going to and fro between obedience and disobedience. It's a theme. How you can argue against it is interesting, but not surprising I guess.

Sure, you can tell yourself we were "pretty good" overall. That'd just be you telling yourself that. That's not the impression one would get from God, by any means. But why do you feel the need to point this out? Proverbs 3:12. Deuteronomy 7:6-8. Just off the top of my head... there's much more scripture about God loving you, discipline is a good thing.

But don't be crazy enough to sit there and say "no! we're pretty good!" No, no you aren't. Where's your temple?

As for your 2 million prophets, I don't care. If they aren't important enough to be in the Tanakh, they aren't important enough to hear about. Keep it simple. If you can't show it to me in the Tanakh, don't mention it.

You would.

You, like most Christians who try to "rebuke" Jews for "not falling in line" seem to forget that the messages given in the Prophets were not just rebuke and warning, but also praise for staying the course. But this is always forgotten, in an effort to convince Jews that "we are ignoring what is in front of us."

I wasn't rebuking you, why so sensitive? Show me where I rebuked you in that post? I gave you my opinion, my impression. I was careful to make it clear it was just my opinion. So, if you feel rebuked, that's on you.

Like I said, we will see who is right. In the meantime, do whatever works for you. That's what I was saying. If you're having issues in your heart about that, pray for guidance. Don't take it out on me for just saying my opinion on why I don't think we're talking about a different God.

You also seem to forget that Jews were given specific instructions for deciphering who are true prophets and who are false prophets, regardless of our success rate of following their advice. You poke at the ones that show that the Jews were very rebellious, and make that your model for how Jews operate over the course of history while ignoring wherever Jews are praised as being faithful, and successful in following the Torah.

I poke at nothing. I poked at nothing. I didn't say anything specific. If you can argue that the Tanakh doesn't demonstrate a to and fro struggle between obedience and disobedience, then perhaps we're not reading the same book. It's pretty clear to me. Major prophet, minor prophets, etc, all portray this. The text is designed this way for a reason.

Again, I don't care about your oral tradition or non-biblical sages or scholars or people who aren't in the Word of God. They aren't in there for a reason.

Yup. Both the bad AND the good, that you won't ever acknowledge.

I'm a Christian, try to hear me out here. I'm no better than the Israelites of old, you, rosends, metis, modern Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, other Christians, or anyone else. The main tenets of my faith are the OPPOSITE of whatever you think I implied. People mess up. If we didn't mess up and we could all easily follow God, then would we even be talking? Would the Tanakh even exist?

Israel has gone back and forth through her history in obedience and disobedience. I acknowledge there are up times, absolutely. But I also acknowledge there are down times where that is concerned. It's not like I said this was an Israel-only condition and no one else suffers or struggles in this. How can you think that's what I meant? Humans do this. *I* do this. Show me a human who doesn't?

God used Israel to teach the world. I can see that as a mixed blessing in some ways, but overall, it is indeed a blessing. If you think me pointing out Israel specifically was somehow to defame her, it wasn't. Obviously, Israel is the people shown in the Bible whom God loves and disciplines. It's a matter of subject, topic, noun... far more so than it was me somehow implying Israel is any more faulty than any other group of people. Shall we talk of the Amalekites, or the Canaanites? Babylon, or Rome?

Please lighten up. The last thing I meant with my post was to rouse anyone's high horse or isolate Israel in some fashion. You obviously hold presuppositions about Christians. I don't blame you. Many people do these days. Heck, even I do at times.

Try to give me the benefit of the doubt at times, and I will earnestly try to do the same.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
There is a little more to it than that but I misled you because the sign read "King of the Jews." I believe eternal life is something that God gives and one does not engender for oneself.

I beleive Christians should leave Isareal altogether since it isn't safe to be living in a target zone.

Tribal affiliation has always been inherited from your father. Why should it be different for one Jew?

So if I get a neat cross with Queen of the Jews on it I am the Queen of the Jews?

Good for you.[/QUOTE]

I believe the prophecy says nothing about tribal affiliation. It just says the "seed of David" which means a descendant.

I believe you ought to know that a queen is not a king.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
He might well be, but if his father isn't a human man descended from King David, then it is simply a matter of cool history, but nothing that would establish him as a Davidic king.

His mother could have been a convert to Judaism (like Ruth was). Women's tribes change based on who they marry. So... his mother's lineage doesn't count for anything. At all.

If his father isn't descended from King David, he isn't in line to be a king from the dynasty.

I believe this is true that He is not a king from the dynasty and the prophecy never says that he should be.

I believe speculation does not serve as evidence.

If Mary is a descendant of David then Jesus fits the prophecy along with a cast of thousands of others. David had umpteen children and descendants can be quitte numerous. When I am doing genealogy it will say that I shave my ancestor with 10,000 other people and that is just those who do genealogy. Of course none of the others were a children of a virgin.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus mother Mary was a Levi. That line goes back to Abraham. If Jews do not believe in Jesus, why do they believe in Mary?
Jesus father was God. God is not descended from any human...but he did create all
Where does it say in the scriptures the line of descent has to be from the male only?

I believe that is an assumption based on the fact that Mary's cousin Elizabeth was married to a Levite but there is no proof that Levites only married Levites at that time even though it was something that was required by the Bible.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
I believe this is true that He is not a king from the dynasty and the prophecy never says that he should be.
Of course it says he should be. The fact is that Jewish law isn't going to change because you like a miracle.

If Mary is a descendant of David then Jesus fits the prophecy along with a cast of thousands of others. David had umpteen children and descendants can be quitte numerous. When I am doing genealogy it will say that I shave my ancestor with 10,000 other people and that is just those who do genealogy. Of course none of the others were a children of a virgin.
Whether Jesus is a child of a virgin or not is a matter of belief. If it happened, it was a miracle. But it is a miracle that doesn't affect me any more than the talking fish from a few years ago would affect me.

All Mary's genealogy proves is that Jesus was Jewish. Nothing more.

The Messiah who the Jews are waiting for has specifications that you don't care about. And that's fine. But don't tell Jews what our philosophy says about the details, and correct us when it doesn't match your own philosophy.

And the thing to remember is that whatever you think about Jesus, it is irrelevant in all things but highlights why the God the Jews is the same as that of the Christians. And whatever importance he may have to Christians, Jesus means nothing to Jews.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
And the thing to remember is that whatever you think about Jesus, it is irrelevant in all things but highlights why the God the Jews is the same as that of the Christians. And whatever importance he may have to Christians, Jesus means nothing to Jews.

You meant 'different', right?
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
facepalm-photo.jpg
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Right. That's what I meant, and now it's too late for me to change it.

You're right! And Happy Purim!

Aw man, just one little word changed your whole post.

The only importance of jesus is that it proves that the god of the Christians is different from the G-d of the Jews.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
When I came to see the actual jewish prophecies I became REALLY surprised that christians actually blame jews for not recognising the messiah.

The Torah is said to be for ever in the bible, yet allegedly, Circumcision is no longer important according to Paul? Kosher no longer important? so when God said the Torah was for ever he didnt really mean for ever?

If they started by teaching the jewish understanding before teaching christianity almost no one would be a christian. It is really ironic for a religion that allegedly is founded by a jewish man who said he came as a fulfillment of jewish law to be so obviously non jewish and against some of the clearest points of the god of the Torah.
 
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